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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
#29322
05/05/08 05:18 PM
05/05/08 05:18 PM
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Master Elite Member
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,315
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I think the main thing to keep in mind here is that this claim was made by creationists who were hoping to invalidate something called the GISP2 ice core from Greenland, which shows 110,000 annual layers. Snow accumulates in the area of southern Greenland, where the planes were found, at a depth of 7 feet per year, while it accumulates one foot per year where the ice core was drilled. What's more, Kent Hovind is apparently not quite clear about the meaning of the "layers" answer he got. This article by David Seely, The GISP2 Ice Core: Ultimate Proof that Noah's Flood Was Not Global, addresses all the points you raised and some additional ones. It explains several methods that are used for dating ice cores in Greenland and Antarctica (which presumably you understand is the one of the driest places on earth and therefore where annual layers are very thin). It also explains the details of the claims of a couple of creationists and the errors they have made. It's quite a comprehensive discussion of the subject and yes, it discusses the planes too and explains the likely reasons why they were buried so deeply. Cognitive Dissonance? Does that apply here? From p 258, (top right paragraph) did you catch the part where your evodunce says Add to these melt layers the actual annual layers, which near the top show up as several lines within the space of a few inches, and you can have an off the cuff estimate of “hundreds of lines.” Several lines within the space of a few inches are annual layers! How old indeed must these aircraft be! They were buried 263 feet deep. He goes on to say Bob Cardin told me that it was because the average snow accumulation in that area is c. 7 feet/year (7 x 50 = 350 feet deep). If you allow for some compression, it is easy to understand how the planes got buried 250 feet deep. But he never reconciles the 7 feet/year with several actual annual layers occurring within a few inches. I guess in his mind there's no need. He's not finished. The occurrence of several actual annual layers - not just "melt layers" - was found near the surface. He says And, of course, as one goes down the core, the snow/ice is compressed more and more so that each foot of ice represents greater and greater lengths of time. One wonders if Hovind's figure might not be a tad low for the evoage of these aircraft. Reading the article wasn't a total waste of time. Led me to Oard's fine article on the Greenland ice interpretations. I also discovered how overrated the "correlations" are. Sulfate concentrations from continuous biyearly sampling of the GISP2 Greenland ice core provide a record of potential climate-forcing volcanism since 7000 B.C. Although 85 percent of the events recorded over the last 2000 years were matched to documented volcanic eruptions, only about 30 percent of the events from 1 to 7000 B.C. were matched to such events. Several historic eruptions may have been greater sulfur producers than previously thought. There are three times as many events from 5000 to 7000 B.C. as over the last two millennia with sulfate deposition equal to or up to five times that of the largest known historical eruptions. This increased volcanism in the early Holocene may have contributed to climatic cooling. ( from http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/264/5161/948 ) 85% sounds impressive, but 30% is rather the opposite. And getting discrepancies in the amount of sulfur raises questions also. Do you cross-check the things you read on AiG? When I research a subject I try to get as much information from different sources as I can. Believe it or not, Talk Origins is never the last word for me. Good to have your word on that. Other evidence is generally lacking. I want to find out what other people are saying and what the general scientific consensus seems to be. I highly recommend it as a truth-finding methodology. A plug for the consensus? And on a politicized global warming-related topic, even. If one values truth, this would seem to be a hazardous attitude.
Dark Matter + Dark Energy = Dark Truth"We find that such evidence demonstrates that the ID argument is dependent upon setting a scientifically unreasonable burden of proof for the theory of evolution." - Judge Jones Kitzmiller case http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Falsify.cfm"To Compel A Man To Furnish Funds For The Propagation Of Ideas He Disbelieves And Abhors Is Sinful And Tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson "And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?" - Thomas Jefferson
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Entire Thread
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A Well Aged Earth
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RAZD
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12/19/07 07:58 PM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth
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SoSick
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12/19/07 11:39 PM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, a second tree.
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RAZD
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12/20/07 01:19 AM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, a second tree.
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SoSick
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12/20/07 02:28 PM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, a second tree.
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Kitsune
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12/20/07 04:59 PM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, a second tree.
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SoSick
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12/20/07 06:05 PM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, a second tree.
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Pwcca
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12/21/07 12:02 AM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, a second tree.
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SoSick
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12/21/07 01:50 AM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, a second tree, and runaway creationism
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RAZD
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12/21/07 04:24 AM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, a second tree, and runaway creationism
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SoSick
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12/21/07 05:32 AM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, another tid-bit of information
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RAZD
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12/21/07 06:07 PM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, another tid-bit of information
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SoSick
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12/21/07 09:01 PM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees, more correlations
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RAZD
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12/25/07 03:14 PM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees, more correlations
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SoSick
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12/27/07 04:21 AM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees, more correlations
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Kitsune
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12/31/07 08:28 AM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees, more correlations
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SoSick
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01/01/08 04:02 AM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees, more correlations
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Kitsune
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01/01/08 08:58 AM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees, more correlations
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SoSick
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01/01/08 06:33 PM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees, more correlations
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SoSick
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01/02/08 02:12 AM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees, more correlations
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Russ
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01/21/08 02:12 AM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees, more correlations
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RAZD
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01/21/08 02:47 AM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees, more correlations
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Russ
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01/21/08 09:27 AM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees, more correlations
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RAZD
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01/21/08 07:06 PM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees, more correlations
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SoSick
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01/22/08 03:21 AM
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More evidence for age -- Annual Lake Varves
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RAZD
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02/06/08 05:13 AM
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Re: More evidence for age -- Annual Lake Varves
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SoSick
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02/08/08 05:05 AM
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Re: More evidence for age -- Annual Lake Varves
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Pwcca
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02/08/08 07:57 PM
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Re: More evidence for age -- Annual Lake Varves
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SoSick
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02/08/08 08:51 PM
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Re: More evidence for age -- Annual Lake Varves
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SoSick
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02/08/08 09:13 PM
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Re: More evidence for age -- Annual Lake Varves and CO2
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RAZD
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02/09/08 06:13 AM
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Re: More evidence for age -- Annual Lake Varves and CO2
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SoSick
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02/12/08 09:39 PM
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Re: More evidence for age -- Annual Lake Varves and CO2
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RAZD
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02/13/08 03:39 AM
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Re: More evidence for age -- Annual Lake Varves and CO2
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SoSick
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02/13/08 05:09 AM
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Picking up where we left off -- another annual layer system
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RAZD
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05/05/08 02:28 AM
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just another "annual" layer fraud
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CTD
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05/05/08 08:57 AM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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Kitsune
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05/05/08 09:50 AM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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CTD
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05/05/08 09:18 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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CTD
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01/11/10 03:01 AM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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RAZD
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05/05/08 11:37 AM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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CTD
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05/05/08 09:42 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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SoSick
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05/06/08 12:04 AM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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CTD
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05/06/08 12:53 AM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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Kitsune
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05/06/08 07:02 AM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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CTD
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05/06/08 08:57 AM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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SoSick
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05/06/08 01:41 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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LinearAq
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05/06/08 03:10 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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SoSick
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05/06/08 04:23 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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SoSick
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05/06/08 05:07 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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Kitsune
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05/06/08 06:56 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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SoSick
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05/06/08 08:20 PM
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Steam Vents in Antarctica
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SoSick
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05/06/08 09:39 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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Kitsune
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05/07/08 06:10 AM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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CTD
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05/07/08 11:29 AM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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Kitsune
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05/07/08 01:40 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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CTD
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05/30/08 11:25 AM
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Re: just another "PRATT" (creationist fraud)
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RAZD
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05/30/08 10:33 PM
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Re: just another "PRATT" (creationist fraud)
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Kitsune
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05/31/08 05:47 AM
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Re: just another "PRATT" (creationist fraud)
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RAZD
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07/19/08 10:37 PM
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Re: just another "PRATT" (creationist fraud)
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Kitsune
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07/20/08 05:58 AM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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SoSick
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05/07/08 11:55 AM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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SoSick
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05/07/08 12:44 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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Kitsune
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05/07/08 01:50 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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SoSick
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05/07/08 03:32 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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SoSick
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05/07/08 03:53 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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SoSick
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05/07/08 05:55 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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LinearAq
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05/07/08 05:53 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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SoSick
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05/07/08 05:59 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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Kitsune
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05/07/08 07:36 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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SoSick
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05/07/08 08:25 PM
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Learn some science
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Kitsune
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05/08/08 06:11 AM
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Re: Learn some science
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Kitsune
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05/08/08 03:02 PM
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Re: Learn some science
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RAZD
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05/10/08 03:01 PM
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Re: Learn some science
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Kitsune
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05/10/08 04:16 PM
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Re: Learn some science
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SoSick
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05/08/08 03:48 PM
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Antarctica temperatures.
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LinearAq
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05/08/08 04:03 PM
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Re: Antarctica temperatures.
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SoSick
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05/08/08 04:48 PM
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Re: Antarctica temperatures.
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Kitsune
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05/08/08 05:14 PM
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Re: Antarctica temperatures.
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SoSick
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05/08/08 07:32 PM
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Re: Antarctica temperatures.
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Kitsune
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05/08/08 07:37 PM
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Obfuscation 101
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LinearAq
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05/08/08 07:59 PM
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Re: Obfuscation 101
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Kitsune
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05/08/08 08:13 PM
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Re: Obfuscation 101
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CTD
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05/08/08 08:44 PM
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Re: Antarctica temperatures.
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SoSick
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05/09/08 02:47 PM
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Re: Antarctica temperatures.
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CTD
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05/08/08 07:57 PM
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Re: Antarctica temperatures.
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Kitsune
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05/08/08 08:11 PM
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Re: Antarctica temperatures.
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CTD
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05/08/08 09:15 PM
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Re: Antarctica temperatures.
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Kitsune
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05/08/08 09:46 PM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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LinearAq
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05/07/08 08:21 PM
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Just another history lesson
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CTD
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05/07/08 06:52 PM
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Re: Just another history lesson
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LinearAq
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05/07/08 08:31 PM
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Re: Just another history lesson
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SoSick
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05/08/08 03:29 AM
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Re: Just another history lesson
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CTD
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05/10/08 01:42 PM
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Re: just another silly creationist argument?
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RAZD
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05/07/08 02:05 AM
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creationist slight of hand?
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RAZD
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05/07/08 01:46 AM
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Re: creationist slight of hand?
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SoSick
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05/07/08 04:05 AM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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SoSick
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05/06/08 12:56 AM
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avoiding the correlation issue -- but then creationist arguments are like that
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RAZD
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05/06/08 01:26 AM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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SoSick
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05/06/08 02:06 AM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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SoSick
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05/06/08 02:53 AM
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Re: just another "annual" layer fraud
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Kitsune
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05/06/08 06:21 AM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees - the truth of preserved wood
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RAZD
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01/02/08 04:07 PM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees - the truth of preserved wood
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SoSick
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01/02/08 08:35 PM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees - the next set of data
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RAZD
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01/02/08 10:45 PM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees - the truth of preserved wood
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SoSick
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01/02/08 10:45 PM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, more trees - the truth of preserved wood
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SoSick
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01/03/08 12:50 AM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth - the carbon-14 environment
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RAZD
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01/05/08 10:28 PM
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For Jeanie - Carbon-14 and the correlations with tree rings etc
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RAZD
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08/30/08 10:58 PM
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Re: For Jeanie - Carbon-14 and the correlations with tree rings etc
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Jeanie
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08/31/08 12:47 AM
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Re: For Jeanie - Carbon-14 and the correlations with tree rings etc
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Lynnmn
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11/19/08 04:28 AM
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Re: For Jeanie - Carbon-14 and the correlations with tree rings etc
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LinearAq
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11/19/08 07:59 PM
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Re: For Jeanie - Carbon-14 and the correlations with tree rings etc
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CTD
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11/20/08 05:25 AM
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Re: For Jeanie - Carbon-14 and the correlations with tree rings etc
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Russ
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11/20/08 04:38 PM
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Re: For Jeanie - Carbon-14 and the correlations with tree rings etc
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CTD
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11/20/08 09:13 PM
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Re: For Jeanie - Carbon-14 and the correlations with tree rings etc
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LinearAq
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11/21/08 11:54 PM
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Re: For Jeanie - Carbon-14 and the correlations with tree rings etc
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CTD
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11/22/08 12:30 AM
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Re: For Jeanie - Carbon-14 and the correlations with tree rings etc
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Lynnmn
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11/21/08 12:37 AM
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Re: For Jeanie - Carbon-14 and the correlations with tree rings etc
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LinearAq
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11/21/08 11:40 PM
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Re: For Jeanie - Carbon-14 and the correlations with tree rings etc
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CTD
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11/22/08 01:06 AM
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Re: A Well Aged Earth, finishing the tree data ...
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RAZD
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01/19/08 11:12 PM
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