Originally Posted by Russell2
Hi CTD

Well you’ve almost got it right, entropy is about the state of the matter and energy in a unit of space.
In modern times 'matter' and 'energy' are generally considered interchangeable. For the sake of laziness, I chose not to type out 'matter and/or energy'. I see that my short-term laziness has entailed more work in the long run.

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...Originally the universe was very small indeed, there was too much energy per unit of space for any matter or information to exist, all there was was energy.
I know this is what you believe, but can you prove it?

Been seeing that question in your posts, so I figure we'll see how well you meet this standard.
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As the universe expanded and the energy per unit of space decreased a time was reached where matter could condense and order was increased. The total entropy of the whole system continued to rise exactly as 2LoT says but the specific entropy of the matter within the system decreased. If this were not true, and 2LoT is considered a Law not just a theory as it is so very well tested, then we would not exist as there would still be no matter or information in the universe.
The old "it must have happened because we're here" game? That's no excuse for improbable/impossible stories. What they need to do is fix the story to match the laws of nature; not conclude the laws didn't apply. The big bang, if that's what you're talking about, violates most all physical laws.

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That there is matter at all in the universe proves that 2LoT works and order can arise in an expanding universe exactly as it predicts.
Mighty odd "proof", if I may say so. I'm guessing you're simply defining "order" as "lack of entropy", right?

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In fact, if you want to remove entropy from any region of space, you just need to remove the matter.

True enough but the entropy of empty space is not very interesting, what is interesting is the entropy of matter containing systems. Matter containing systems can produce increased order in an expanding universe according to 2LoT, that is an interesting fact of this universe.
Or maybe you're equating "order" with "lack of heat"?

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Information isn't even a physical property.

That’s an interesting point, information is not a physical property but it is held within the ordering of physical objects, ordering which increases as entropy drops but you are correct it is not in itself a physical property. Likewise information can not exist without a physical medium be that matter or energy, {snip}
You left out fields. Fields can also contain information.

That's for making my laziness counterproductive.
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it is dependant on the orderliness of matter/energy for its continued existence.
Now you may have a problem or two. For information contained in fluids can be lost if the fluids become "more orderly" and change their state to solid.

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At maximum entropy matter can not store any information thus the link between entropy and information. At maximum entropy, when this universe first began, it could contain no information at all.
"Maximum entropy"? Strange concept. But then what about "minimum entropy"?

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Some definitions of information require it to be purposeful and some don't. But purposeless 'information' never accomplishes anything, so discussing it is moot.

You say a lot here but does it actually mean anything?
Unfortunately it does. Evolutionists like to use definitions which omit meaning from information. This is because meaningless random gibberish can be generated by random processes. Happens all the time.

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What is purposeful information as opposed to purposeless information?
See below...
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ToE fine tunes organisms to fit their environment, we can watch it do this in real time in the wild and in the lab so we know it’s true but is the information it pulls from the environment to shame these organisms purposeful?
Why don't you talk sense? Is ToE your god or not? If not, why do you refer to it in this manner? If so, why not just say it?

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We all know that under any definition, some information is purposeful. It exists, yet there is no origin available in a purposeless cosmos.

Are you sure about this, organisms pull purposeless information from their environments and put it to work for their own ends thus giving it purpose.
You just got done asking what purposeless information was, did you not? If you don't know what it is, why do you claim it is "pulled" from the environment?

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The only intelligence required is that which evolution has invented in the organisms which are capable of mentally modelling the world around them as a short cut to making a living in it.
Do we ever get a break from this non-god god of yours?
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But that’s not what you mean by purposeful information is it CTD. Your actual definition, I suspect, will turn out to be question begging and so a fallacy at its root if you are honest enough to examine it in depth.
Why don't you supply the definitions, since you've been so freely using the terms already? Then we'll examine them and see how circular they are, right?

Dark Matter + Dark Energy = Dark Truth

"We find that such evidence demonstrates that the ID argument is dependent upon setting a scientifically unreasonable burden of proof for the theory of evolution." - Judge Jones Kitzmiller case
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Falsify.cfm

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