The Real Cause of America's Backsliding

Same Sex Marriages, Legalized Abortion, Pornography...they all stem from one thing.

The seeds for the moral collapse of the United States were sewn in very document that established our government. Those seeds were put there by that Anti-Christian founding father, Thomas Jefferson. The states ratified the Constitution of the United States because they were tricked by those deist founding fathers who they, mistakenly, regarded highly.

I am talking about the First Amendment to the Constitution. The gall of them to allow religions other than Christianity!!

Wasn't the nation of Israel punished many times for the king's failure to stop his people from worshiping false gods?
Didn't Hezekiah reinstate God's blessing by tearing down the worshiping places of those false gods?

Yet our government has allowed this poison to infect our society and in fact protects that infection with a passion.

Islam
Scientology
Buddhism
Hinduism
Humanism!!

All protected and destroying our youth and our nation!!!

It is time for Christians to rise up and take back America! We don't need to have a change to the Constitution in order to define marriage. Nor do we need a rights-for-the-unborn amendment. Just change the first amendment to make Christianity (Nicene Creed, type) the only allowed religion. Tear down those idols!!!

Of course that means the free speech portion should be modified to prevent speech that is against Christianity and our God, but it is a minor change.

What's your opinion about the other founding fathers? (This is an honest question.)

People like to say Washington was a Mason but he renounced it later in life and was never involved in the higher ranks (or so I've read). I've never studied this issue in great detail so I can't speak much on it, but you do make a good point about the false religions infiltrating this country.

It's funny today how there is such an emphasis on "tolerance", but if the object of our "tolerance" is evil, how long shall we endure it without expecting consequences?

Washington never took the sacraments (bread/body and wine/blood) in his church according to his own pastor. He would go to church with Martha but would leave when the sacrament was being distributed. When the pastor preached a sermon about people not taking the sacraments, Washington changed his habits and just didn't come to church on the Sundays that the sacraments were to be performed. I have a copy of the letter by the pastor in which he stated these things.

The contention that Washington was a Mason has always been a bit muddled. I think the Mason's list him as a member, but I'm not sure. Do you have a source for your statement that he renounced his membership? Perhaps something in Washingston's own words/hand?

Ben Franklin: When cornered about his religion, stated that, if anything, he would have to classify himself as a deist.

Thomas Paine: Atheist/Deist depending on which of his writings you trust more. His later writings refer to God but that may be literary license.

John Adams: Christian by his own account but also wrote specifically that the US was not a Christian nation.

John Hancock: Claimed to be Christian...went to church....no writings by him concerning his dedication to his faith.

James Madison: Christian (Church of England), claimed dedication to his faith. However, he was on the forefront of the push for complete religious freedom in Virginia and in the US Constitution. He even wrote documents supporting the freedom from religion.

I would have to look up more stuff at home to answer in more detail.

Russ, how much do you actually know about the "false faiths"? It's a good thing most Christians in the UK don't agree with you. We have large populations from Asia and there would be race riots. Just what God wants I'm sure.

I know more than you would likely imagine.

People who are unfamiliar with the historical accuracy of Biblical prophecy are nearly always the same people who are unwilling to even engage in the most basic study of the evidence.

The truth is, most "Christians" are not practicing Biblical Christianity, and if it's not Biblical Christianity, it's not really Christianity at all. I know. I've been hanging around them for 20 years.

I would that you take note of this historical attribute: The majority is often wrong.

So you're excluding the majority of Christians in your select group as well? That makes quite a minority of you in the world population. It must be heartening to know that you are amongst the chosen few while everyone else is going to hell. Congratulations!

What God wants is for the nations of this Earth to turn back to Him. He punished Israel for their kings allowing false faiths to continue drawing the citizenry to them. God then blessed Israel when Hezekiah tore down the temples to other (false) gods.
Our nation was established under the banner that false gods would be allowed and even protected. It is a fact that devout Christian worship has kept God's punishment at bay. No that people are turning away from God, should we not expect his judgment just like in Israel?

Even if the majority of people would fight against us in this holy return to faith, we should win because it is what God desires. A nation dedicated to Him.

Again, I call for the true Christians of this nation to rise up and overthrow this insult to our God, then drive out these false religions. We must establish God's kingdom in the nation and convert the world through our example.

If your tongue was any more in your cheek you'd be choking.

Careful, you might find people here agreeing with you!

This here is an excellent foray into the background CON nections with some early historical references in relation to the bizness of the United States Incorporated,and of the shamefully small number a folks in power internationally. welp, globally, if you will. Well worth watchin, and yep, it's long, but the research behind it is purty cast-iron and highly commendable.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1158343264447729869&hl=en-GB

She's got a kinda irritatin voice, ( more sandpaper than silk) an I won't be singin any duets with this lil lady but I am singin her praises

LinearAq wrote:



Where can I sign up? I hate humanists too.

Its so easy to place the blame on why things are screwed up, but what are you doing to make it better?

It would be much wiser to leave such judgment to god, for only he can say who knows the truth and who shall be saved.

Hi gdawson6,

I too at first, took those comments as being "sincere". But realised after that it seemed instead they were done in sarcasm.

And were (if Linda's statement is correct) nothing more than a p*ss take of Christians (and therefore Christ, considering the foundational beliefs stem from Him). I'd like to give Linear the benefit of the doubt, but Linda obviously knows him better than I do and seemed fully aware of what he was doing.

Pwcca simply injected his own addition, no doubt for the same reason. If that is the case? They make a good team

Rather sad though!

But at any rate, you are right. Nobody can judge the human heart except God. However, we can (and should) indeed stand up and act on laws/behaviours that are intrisically wrong. To not do so, would be a sin of ommission. And who in society suffers the most from the immoral action/beliefs of adults? The children! The saying goes:

Evil flourishes when good people do nothing.

I really hope they were done in sarcasm, and I do agree that we should always stand up against what is obviously wrong.

Yeah, but not in a nice way. It was done as a derogatory dig at Christians. I take offense at what Linear did personally (as a Christian).

I do intend to get into the subject matter here, but just had to comment "Elvis" who's comment has me amused. I had dinner with one of your ex's!! Linda Thompson?? Went to her house before she and David broke up over the reality show they tried to do about her yuppy rich son's by Bruce Jenner... (If you are a true Elvis fan you will know who I'm talking about).

Well....the way I look at our founding fathers.... I believe they were good men inspired by God to help establish a place where we could practice freedom of religion....that mean's ALL religion. They weren't perfect. But I also believe the earth was still in a state of apostasy at that time and people were still trying to figure out where the truth or "Biblical Christianity" was to be found. My father in law who died the year I was born (my husband is almost 8 years older than me and he died when he was 7) was supposed to have been a Mason as well. He belonged to the Masonic lodges apparently. It was changed through the years, but my belief is that the authority of the priesthood (God's power) was lost when the apostles were killed off. The state and church compromised.....(religion became part of the govt.) and even cannonized scripture was altered through the ages. I think the Free Masons were trying to preserve something....I don't know that, but I believe their original tenets were noble and that they were trying to do the best with the light that they had. The entire church changed from how Christ originally established it.. People now just kind of pick and choose even from the Bible what they think it means. They build whole churches and religions on one facet of the Bible's teachings. But I believe everyone has a right to believe as they choose. We as a nation standing for freedom have to respect other's beliefs. BUT - Christians in all their denominations and branches also deserve that same right and consideration. That is being stomped on.

Well....the way I look at our founding fathers.... I believe they were good men inspired by God to help establish a place where we could practice freedom of religion....that mean's ALL religion. They weren't perfect. But I also believe the earth was still in a state of apostasy at that time and people were still trying to figure out where the truth or "Biblical Christianity" was to be found. My father in law who died the year I was born (my husband is almost 8 years older than me and he died when he was 7) was supposed to have been a Mason as well. He belonged to the Masonic lodges apparently. It was changed through the years, but my belief is that the authority of the priesthood (God's power) was lost when the apostles were killed off. The state and church compromised.....(religion became part of the govt.) and even cannonized scripture was altered through the ages. I think the Free Masons were trying to preserve something....I don't know that, but I believe their original tenets were noble and that they were trying to do the best with the light that they had. The entire church changed from how Christ originally established it.. People now just kind of pick and choose even from the Bible what they think it means. They build whole churches and religions on one facet of the Bible's teachings. But I believe everyone has a right to believe as they choose. We as a nation standing for freedom have to respect other's beliefs. BUT - Christians in all their denominations and branches also deserve that same right and consideration. That is being stomped on.

oops - sent twice somehow

Frankly, I am trying to understand why the Christian Fundamentalists who decry homosexuality as an abomination that is destroying our nation don't decry the government allowing non-Christian religions to exist in the USA. They don't say that this "religious freedom" is an abomination to God yet Israel and Judah were punished time and again for this same thing. God finally just had them taken into captivity because they were so "tolerant" of other religions. Why shouldn't Christians feel we are placing a curse on our own heads for not opposing other religions where ever possible?

Yes...leave such judgements to God...just like Israel and Judah did.

Yes...a bit of sarcasm. In our country, Fundamentalist Christians want to deny rights to people because of what they have done that harms no one else, just because those Christians believe it is a sin. Not believing in Christ is one of the biggest sins of all. However, you hear nothing about denying rights to Muslims or Buddhists. Why is that?

You mean that foundational belief that we should love God with all our heart, soul and mind? That one?
How about "Thou shalt place no other God before Me"? Sounds pretty foundational to me.

Tell me, if you criticize another Christian for their "mistaken" interpretation of the Bible, or their actions that seem unBiblical, are you criticizing Christ? If not, why do you think I am criticizing Christ when I point out seemingly contradictory actions by Christians in my country?

What makes it sad to you?

Like allowing competing religions or ideas.

And yet Fundamentalist Christians do nothing about the government allowing false religions to florish. Strange!

Which simply proves your accusations are nothing but baloney doesn't it?

You seem to be just another person using lies to spread hatred.

enjoy your day. alone.

Hang on. Who are you referring to that harms nobody else? Are you talking about homosexuals? You are aware that God Himself condemns homosexuality arent you? It is throughout the bible. He also condemns fornication (let that be a lesson to us "heterosexuals")...sexuality is a gift from God Linear, it's not something you and I "decide" where and how it should be used according to our feelings/urges. It is very much part of the sacred bond between a man and a woman within marriage, with the ultimate intent for procreation (even nature reflects the same male to female intent - with "few" deviations).

Fornication, adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, paedophilia, deviate from what God intended and what He has commanded. Deviating from His intentions and commandments harms us, as much as it harms eachother and in the end, harms society. We can look at it very much from the "world's" viewpoint, or God's viewpoint, that is a choice. We can consider the world's view that so long as it's two consenting adults, it's "ok". Or we can consider God's view that it is not ok, it is a serious offense to Him and a violation to the gift of sexuality. He created it afterall, who are you or I to decide?

It is not up for your opinion or mine. If you believe in God, then it comes down to obedience, not "opinion". And obedience is also a sign of faithfulness and love. We are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God in our personal lives, and all need to continue fighting the "good fight", but to okay sins? Is in a sense, scandalising others and putting our feelings and decisions above God.



Linear, if your original post was genuine, then I am sorry I accused you unfairly. Linda said it was "tongue in cheek" so I assumed she was right without even asking you. I should have known better than to trust Linda on that one. You are totally correct to point out the contradictions and how many more there are too! We are so often an inconsistent bunch, but human afterall. There is one true God. I believe personally that the way to the Father is through the Son Jesus Christ as the bible teaches. I do not believe that God condemns a person if they have not yet met Christ and have been brought up in another religion. The person's intentions and loyalty to their own faith defintitely comes into it and some can also put us to shame by their faithfulness to their own religion (whom they sincerely believe is the right way). Personal knowledge/circumstances etc most definitely come into it. I was, myself, away from Him. But not deliberately so! I did not reject Him, nor did I make fun of Him, I was lost and didn't know it. Because of this, He came to Me because I was "genuinely lost", not intentionally. Some part of me was seeking Him, but didn't know how. I came to Him after some painful outcomes with dabbling in the occult. He was the only one that had power over it. I tried other means to escape and was powerless.

Pointing out (or criticising) as you see it, if someone has missed something in the bible is not judging Christ. How can that be judging Christ? If Christ Himself had already pointed it out? You're only using correction. Do you think He would be pleased to have us say nothing for fear that the person will accuse us of "being judgemental"?



Well I'm a New Zealander Linear and I cannot do much about what those in power decide to do once they get there. I can only vote according to my conscience and God's laws and vote for someone who has Christian values. So often, they do not get in. Why does any government in power allow abortion on any level? There's another one for ya. If you think false religions flourishing is bad, how about the abortion holocaust? You know, there are some "Christians' who actually support this atrocity?

Yes, we do indeed need Christ to come back and come back soon to right all wrongs. What a mess!

??? What hatred are you talking about? Do you think that Buddhism, Wicca and Islam are not false religions?

What in that statement of mine is a lie? Do Fundamentalist Christians in the US oppose the support that the First Amendment to the US Constitution gives to those false religions?

They openly oppose freedom of speech by demanding laws restricting it. Why not demand laws restricting religions other than Christianity? Why is that a boundary that they won't cross?

If not asking for laws to restrict those false religions then why are they not protesting in front of Hindu temples, or at Wiccan gatherings? Even Fred Phelps won't do that and he is a real extremist.

Don't you think that if Christianity were the only choice for a religion that these other problems would be diminished? When Hezekiah destroyed the temples to Baal in Judah, was that an act of hatred?

All I want to know is why you don't support removal of the false religions from this country.

How would we be different, then? I shudder to think of the untruths that would be shoved down our throats if the govt. decided which "true" religions could stay. Religious persecution is why many came to this nation. It WAS founded on righteous principals and, I believe, the constitution was an inspired writing.

Well said, Jeanie. Unfortunately, your Christian counterparts here in this particular forum would disagree with you.

Homosexuality, according to them, must be ousted, done away with, stopped at all costs because their relgion says so. Circumcision is done not for hygenic purposes, not for cultural or traditional reasons, but because their religion, their god says so (and who cares what some other god(s) or religions dictate, it's not the Christian one and that, according to them, is law). The US, they'll tell you, is a dwindling nation because it is no longer a Christian nation. Laws must be in place not because they are just or fair, not because they are in the interest of all people regardless of their religious background but because their religion demands it.

Anyone who believes these things must therefore stand in opposition with other religions. You do not make statements like "I believe the US is suffering today because it is no longer Christian" and in the same breath say that you believe people should have the freedom to practice (or not) whatever religion they so choose.

So I guess the real question, Jeanie, is where do you stand? Do you believe "the US is suffering because it is no longer a Christian nation"? If so this begs the question, how do you feel about other religions? If you do feel this way then surely you see Buddhists and Muslims -- and dare I say pagans such as myself -- as a stain on society.

Well...some of the folks on here aren't going to like this, but I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - a Mormon. I believe the fullness of the Gospel with the authority of the priesthood was restored to the earth about 170 years ago. I'm sure I will either be outright rejected on this forum by some, or talked about behind my back. I am open to answer any questions (or accusations...) and happy to answer them to the best of my ability. I believe Priesthood authority was lost when the carriers of that priesthood were killed off and that we entered into the dark ages... The church was changed from its original teachings and those teachings were altered down through the ages and, yes, even the Bible was altered. We see the King James version as most accurate. Great people tried to get back to the truth - suffered horrible consequences in most cases, but helped set the way for the restoration of the fullness of the gospel to happen and it had to happen here on this continent - with freedom - for it to be able to take root. Even so the church endured persecution which is why the saints finally headed out west where they could practice and the church could grow in relative peace. We now have more members outside America than within..

But Duchess, I (we) see our Father in Heaven as just that - a loving Father. I don't see you as a stain....To be honest I may see you as lost....but not beyond hope. (Honestly I don't even know you...) Not sure why you refer to yourself as a pagan..if its literally a religion or as compared to a Christian - but almost all of us on here have been lost at one time or another. Some of us still are....and certainly none of us is perfect. There is only one person who has ever been perfect. We are in a dark world and there is a lot to be confused by.

Having said that...I believe that in the Old Testament times the Lord gave commandments people may not have understood, but believe there were still reasons for them. Sometimes it is just about obedience as in the case of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son.. I believe it was a test of his faith and faithfulness and also that it taught Abraham a lot about the atonement...(Christ's sacrifice). They were taught not to eat unclean meat, too, and we know there was wisdom in that. (The reason the Bubonic (sp?) plague passed by the Jews....which was, apparently, a cause for persecution toward them because of that). Circumcision served more than one purpose as well...

I don't believe homosexuality is healthy either physically, spiritually or emotionally. I believe it is unnatural. If you practice it and this offends you I am sorry. But I also think there is a way back. I do not hold contempt for those who practice it - but I will never see it as normal or acceptable. I see it as damaging in many respects to those who practice it and do not want it taught as normal to my children or my children's children. I believe there may be cases where there are true hormonal imbalances..but we do have the technology to correct those. I certainly don't fill the traditional roles of a woman in some ways. My husband is more emotional than the average man (outwardly). But we balance each other out..

Anyway - not sure if that was even brought up for personal reasons, but I do not see you as a stain in any case. I see you as a person of great worth in our Father in Heaven's sight and in my sight. Wickedness was never happiness. (Scripture from the Book of Mormon : ) The commandments are there for our sake....for our happiness and for our safety. I have some other things pertaining to the state of America I'm going to type in in a following post.

"And Moroni was a strong and a mighty man; he was a man of a perfect understanding; yea, a man that did not delight in bloodshed; a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his country; and his brethren from bondage and slavery;
Yea, a man whose heart did swell with thanksgiving to his God, for the many privileges and blessings which he bestowed upon his people; a man who did labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of his people.
Yea and he was a man who was firm in the faith of Christ, and he had sworn with an oath to defend his people, his rights and his country, and his religion, even to the loss of his blood."
Alma 48: 11-13

"And now, when Moroni saw that the city of Nephihah was lost he was exceeding sorrowful, and began to doubt, because of the wickedness of the people, whether they should fall into the hands of their brethren.
Now this was the case with all his chief captains. They doubted and marveled also because of the wickedness of the people, and this because of the success of the Lamanites over them.
And it came to pass that Moroni was angry with the government, because of their indifference concerning the freedom of their country."

Alma 59: 11-13

Concerning this continent pertaining to the people possessing it at the time it was written B.C.:

"And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.
(Note: this did happen...we now know that there were great civilizations upon this land that were wiped out).
And now, we can behond the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fullness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.
For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, they they are swept off."

Ether 2:7

Now - directed to the American Gentiles of the last days:

"And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God - that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that he may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.
Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written."

Ether 2: 11-12

One more:

"Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophecy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.
Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever."

2 Nephi 1: 6-7

Personal note: The Book of Mormon is a record of the people on the American continent. They came over originally from Jerusalem (one branch - another group came even earlier) about 600 B.C. If you read Ezekial 37: 16-17 the stick of Judah represents the Bible, the stick of Ephraim, the people here who brought forth the Book of Mormon. I need to find the exact reference, but in the New Testament Christ talks about "Other sheep have I which are not of this fold...." Before his ascension but after the crucifixion, Christ also visited the people here on this continent. There are stories of "Quozecoatal" (sp?) also known by other names, but all referring to the Great While God who was to return.

I know some of you likely have preconceived ideas about Mormons and I really do understand that being a convert myself. My sister is Baptist. I had relatives who turned on me when I joined the church when I was 15. Hasn't been easy....but I'm use to it. My only request is that you give us a fair shake in explaining any questions, etc., rather than reverting to those would like to put an evil slant on things. Just the other day on the radio some preacher was talking about us. I promise we do not brainwash.. We are very much about free will.

Hi again Jeanie. First I must thank you for your open mindedness when discussing these things with me and not resorting to childish temper tantrums and derogatory remarks. Thank you! That isn't to imply that I think you would do these things but a summary glance at numerous other threads should be a clear indication as to why I might expect it from another poster.

I asked my questions from an argumentative standpoint, not a personal one. My sexual orientation in no way inspired my comments, nor did my religion; they were examples to make a broader statement. You asked if I meant being a pagan in the literal sense. Yes. I am a Celtic Reconstructionist, as my parents. Conversely, whereas you see me as being "lost" for my religious upbringing, I in turn do not see you or other Christians as lost. I see all religions as a chosen path. Different folks different strokes. It would indeed be a sad world, sickened by sameness if everyone across the globe shared the same religion.

I'm not sure if I got a direct answer though. Do you a) believe that America is suffering because it is no longer Christian and, if so, then b) you must therefore see other religions as the reason for America's alleged descension, right? As LinearAq succinctly points out, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and even myself worship "false gods" and therefore we should, according to this line of thinking, be stopped. Otherwise how else can one reverse the destruction which has been wrought upon "Christian America"?

PS: The Duchess of Malfi is where the quote in my signature comes from. It's a Jacobean play. I'm neither a Duchess nor female, heh!

Hi Pwcca, I simply expressed the Christian belief biblically from Christ Himself.....this does not come from self deciding "bias".

I made it clear that for a follow of Christ, it's not about what I feel like doing/believing, but being faithful to my God and His commands. This also includes my own personal behaviours (sexual and otherwise) as well. It does not just speak about homosexuality as I said, but ALL deviations from the original intention of the sexual act. For one that believes in God, it is not up for question. For those that don't? Well they may decide their own "moral code".

If I did not believe in Christ and my beliefs in origins were different, I would honestly have no issue with it. Why would I? For me, Christ and the bible have given sexuality far more dignity and more point than what the TV shows etc have cheapened it to. How much it actually does mean and certainly the responsibility we have to express it wisely.

It really does depend on what somebody believes that all these things come from. If there is no "ultimate" accountability, then why should we not then have our own moral code? We can decide what we feel is right or wrong. And that may even go for every other sexual act you can imagine.

But because I am a believer in Christ, and a believer in creation, then for me, I am fully aware where these things ultimately come from and who is the one to decide how our "sexuality" is best expressed. I cannot help it if other people object or find this irritating/frustrating. What kind of Christian would I be if I decided this was "ok" when God Himself has condemned it, and it is a great offense to Him (abomination). As is fornication (living together before marriage), adultery etc. Why people focus on homosexuality, I really do not know. It's ALL deviations from the natural sex act and any sex outside of marriage.

Should I have to apologise? Sorry folks, but if you have a problem with this? Then you have a problem with Christ and ought to take it up with Him. This is biblical, this is not just "my opinion".

....and therefore we should, according to this line of thinking, be stopped....

I think you are bit paranoid. If 'Christian America' had any intention of stopping other religions from gaining a foothold, it would have happened long ago. But no, what we see in the real world is only proof of the exact opposite.

and then of course someone is bound to run in and yell 'witch burners' and of course they haven't taken a single moment to realize that anything of that nature that occurred way way back within groups of people who were raised in that tradition, with burning at the stake or various forms of torture accepted as corporeal punishment (which corporeal punishment still exists today in various forms mind you), did happen within select groups of people who were judging their own people, not outsiders or other groups..

of course I suppose it is ok in the view of a celtic reconstructionist for a satanist or wiccan to torture and kill even though the same act when done by a member of another religion sets his blood afire. Of course the intent of the act of murder will justify the murder in that case for anyone who requires a rational reason that isn't inherently obvious. Whereas in pagan religions human sacrifice is allowable but in Christian religions corporeal punishment is not acceptable to the mind and emotions of the celtic reconstructionist.

yes, we've heard it all before. from numerous people who like to accuse and point fingers at others for the things they themselves are most guilty of.

Ok I have a question. I am not an expert on the book of mormon. by any stretch.

So, exactly who is Moroni?

Ther is actually quite a bit of archeological evidence which does suggest that some of the native american, as we call them, are actually the decendants of hebrews, and also phonecians, from during the time of Soloman. Whether or not the book of mormon is their book is rather questionable though, I think, especially since it was not known among native americans.

In South america, the tribes of indians that were first encountered by europeans, who brought the word of God to the new world (the great white god), practiced rituals very similar to the pagan religions of phonecia. Likeise many early native indian religions kept customs and rituals strikingly similar to hebrew and phonecian customs and religious rituals.

The hebrews spread themselves across all of the continent, all the way into Russia and china, into Africa etc. This is undeniable. So when Jesus mentions 'others not of this fold, he is likely referring also to these. but undoubtedly he is also referring to the lost people that ventured overseas in search of treasure for King Soloman. and it is mentioned in the bible, yes, that some were lost at sea.

try www.s8int.com I think that is the url, they have quite a bit of info there they have collected.

No, you should not have to apologize for your religious belief....ever. Even if you speak that belief in a public forum or on the street corner, you should not be forced into silence.

By the same token, others should not be forced to comply with your religious code unless their violations of that code also trample on the rights of others (ie murder, rape...etc). There are those in my country who are influencing lawmakers to enact laws to force people to follow the moral codes of one particular religion....Christian fundamentalism.

This thread is about the contrary actions of those people. I want to understand why they feel that the actions of a particular group of people should be stopped while the actions of another group of people, just as much an abomination by Christian standards, is immune from legislation.

Why do these people feel that the teaching of evolution in school should be restricted but the teaching in the mosque should not? Both are influencing the young toward a life without Christ, aren't they?

BTW: I looked and could find no words of Christ that addressed fornication or homosexuality. Could you point them out for me?

I never said that. I just think that they should not play favorites by picking and choosing which abominations are to be blotted out and which they should allow to continue despite the requirements of the Bible.

So Christian Fundamentalists have given money to build a Buddhist temple or allowed a Hindu ceremony in their church? I what way have Evangelical Christians helped in the teaching of other religions?


Yes...way back in 1998 as shown here

I never said that people practicing those other religions should be killed or tortured. There are other ways to deal with them...deportation, fines, prison sentences. Was the idea of burning something you normally choose as a means of dealing with those that refuse to convert?

What you suppose and what is real may be different. You have examples of celtic reconstructionists torturing and killing people?

It seems that you are saying Pwcca is in favor of "corporeal" punishment and even murder in the name of his religion. Where did you get that idea?

Do you have examples of these human sacrifices to pagan religions in recent times?

Is a pagan religion defined as any religion besides Christianity?

You believe that I am guilty of trying to influence legislation to restrict the freedoms of a group of people? Please provide some evidence to support that accusation.

Short answer: The angel that led Joseph Smith to the Golden Plates containing the Book of Mormon.

More detailed at this Wikipedia article
and Mormon article

The second article is more kindly to the Latter-day Saints than the first.

Well, Wiki must be wrong because Jeanie's quote from the book of Mormon specifically states that Moroni was a man. A man with brethren in chains and bondage.

Amazing you could miss it all:

Matthew 5:27 -
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

Matthew 5:28 -
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Matthew 5:32 -
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Matthew 19:9 -
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Matthew 19:18 -
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Mark 10:11 -
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

Mark 10:12 -
And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Mark 10:19 -
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

John 8:41 -
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Luke 17:29 -
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Luke 16:18 -
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Luke 18:20 -
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.


2 Peter 2:6 -
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Jude 1:7 -
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

There's more too.

Why would Christian Fundamentalists do that? Have Buddhists or Hindus contributed to the coffers of christian churches or helped them teach the bible?



I think if you study history, just a little bit, you find that methods of corporeal punishment, among various cultures not just Christian cultures, for various different things, differed quite a bit back in the days prior to the prison system being established. Christians are rather tolerant of other religions compared to others like Hindu and islam who do use the death sentence against people who leave those faiths.

Any particular reason you are choosing to try to make Christians look intolerant? If you continue and get your way too much you may actually find yourelf living under a system of sharia law someday and then you will truly know the meaning of religious intolerance.

Why is the Christian objection to things like sharia law and other very intolerant beliefs among other religions is a problem for you? You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth.



Well, you know, a predominantly Christian culture did sometime ago, make certain pagan religious practices illegal.. So, not any legal examples, but people have been sent to prison over recent years for being caught doing various things of that nature. Is that a problem for you too? We could of course turn back the clock, build pyraminds, sacrifice maidens and warriors and roll their heads down the steps of the pyramids to get the gods to favor us instead. Would that make LinearAQ happy?



No, you seem to actually just be not very well informed about things.. with a worldly chip of hatred toward christians on your shoulder and you don't even seem to know how it got there.. That statement was directed to Pwcca who is always accusing Christians of calling people names when in fact he does it more than anyone else.

I'm in favor of incorporeal punishment. I only believe in killing ghosts, for example.

Corporeal punishment does not always refer to the death penalty. But anyway, so you are against the death penalty but you favor abortion and the rights of pagans to practice ritual human sacrifice?

maybe you can clarify that.

and what about other practices of other religions? for instance, are you in favor of permitting muslims to cut off a person's hand if they are accused of theft? to cut out their tongues if they blaspheme? Do you favor sharia law in regard to the rights of women, or lack of? Do you agree with the muslim idea that women should not be allowed to drive a car? do you favor the hindu practice of burning a widow alive alongside her deceased husband? Do you favor the caste sytem, even when civil rights laws prohibit such discrimination? Do you favor protecting and the necessary feeding of certain species of animals as holy to the gods even when your children are starving? Do you favor the pagan practice of offering babies and children, burning them alive, to the gods? Do you favor the pagan practice of spreading mercury throughout places to protect them from evil spirits?

Did I say adultery?

However


I guess I was wrong since fornication does seem to be a sin. My translations call it marital unfaithfulness (adultery). The only one that calls it fornication is my King James.


Again Jesus refers to adultery. Are you saying adultery is the same as fornication?


This is a reference by the Hebrews in the crowd that they were not illegitimate. Jesus does not say fornication or condemn it here.

In context, Jesus is referring to the fact that the people of Sodom were not expecting the judgment and were unprepared for it. He said nothing about why they were judged.


Adultery again...not homosexuality or fornication.



These 2 are not quotes from Jesus.

Don't get me wrong. I believe that sex is not something that can just be used indiscriminately. It is a relationship builder within a marriage that communicates trust and openness.

It's just that Jesus seemed to be concentrating on things that had more basic importance.

He was a man. He wrote the Book of Mormon on the Golden Tablets and buried them about 450 years after Christ's birth. After, he died, Moroni was elevated to angel status.

You could have read the articles to find this stuff out.

You can try to make them opposites all day long Linear but it never work. they are pretty much one and the same, just variations of context. which is probably why your translations interchange the words without difficulty also.



He didn't have to. He was was speaking to a crowd that spent every sabbath day in the temple studying the scripture. people who could quote scripture at a moment's notice.



Does it matter? Are you trying to indicate the writer was not taught by Jesus?

Yes I could have. But I didn't because I am waiting for a reply from a mormon, not an article or opinion from wiki.

Since you appear so knowledgeable, perhaps you can point out to us another example, a biblical example, of an angel that also lived as a man. An angel with brethren in chains and bondage.

are you going to continue veering off to try to find places in the bible where you don't understand the meaning or else aren't aware of the scriptue and so you can use that to justify your ideas for a few odd moments or will you proceed to simply address the inconsistencies in your argument that I have pointed out above in regard to the practices of other religions which you are promoting which would inhibit the freedom of others at the expense of your own argument which claims Christian are trying to stop you from doing something?

Then you don't support the teaching of other religions. OK

Not all Christians. The ones who are trying to make everyone conform to their moral code by changing the laws and even the Constitution of the US are making themselves look intolerant. I am just pointing out the inconsistency in their actions.

I am at a loss as to how you came up with the idea that I support sharia law as a means of governing people. I believe I have stated just the opposite. Just because I oppose the imposition of Fundamentalist Christian moral code upon the US citizenry, does not mean I support using another religious code in the same manner. Your logic is truly dizzying.

They object to it? They must not object very much because they don't protest it or try to prevent its teaching.

Like denying that Christ is the Messiah from 1478 to 1834...see here

Examples please that show these people were part of an organized religion that condoned their actions.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I supported these particular religious actions.

Shall we go through all your posts and his and make a tally of the name calling? I guess we would first have to agree on what type of statements would constitute "name calling" so we are on the same page.

Just because I am against subjecting the US citizenry to the involuntary enforcement of Extremist Christian religious moral doctrine, does not mean I am in favor of the involuntary enforcement of any other religious moral doctrine.

Where do you get these ideas? Or is this just a means of discrediting my statements by inferring that I support that kind of zaniness?

Correct me if I am wrong, but did you not indicate that you perceived Christians as wanting to impose their beliefs on the general population? Which is obviously not true since Christians obviously tolerate other religions.. but did you not indicate your perception that this was not so? And that it should not be so either?

So now, you appear to be be indicating that you would like to also restrict the practices of other religions which you disagree with.

How does this statement:


coexist with the idea of freedom for the people of other religions whose beliefs your ideas are in direct conflict with?

Is it not you who is is attempting to impose your beliefs, religious or otherwise, on others?

The second article was by Mormons. As far as I know, there were no examples of angels that were previously men. This is where mainstream Christian denominations disagree with Mormon doctrine.


I don't see where you have pointed out inconsistencies in my argument unless you mean your mistaken belief that I want to impose another religious code on people in place of the Fundamentalist Christian one.

What fundamentalist Christian 'one' are you referring to? You should make that perfectly clear instead of just using vague insinuations to try to make a point. I mean honestly, if you can only find one even, that would hardly be a foundation for all the numerous claims you are attempting to make.

and... what you see as my 'mistaken' belief, has been made quite clear by yourself in previous statements, that you desire to see your beliefs imposed on others, religious or otherwise, as retribution for your mistaken belief that Christians are responsible for limiting your freedoms and the freedoms of others.

Perhaps you have not noticed that belief in Jesus is not a requirement to live as a US citizen and never has been? perhaps you have not noticed that Christians have not demanded, now or at anytime in the history of this country, that you believe and be taught creationism in public school, whereas evolution for instance, an idea which opposes the basic foundations of Christianity (and other religions, atheists being a minority in most places) has been required to be taught and learned by children in public schools who are even required to be graded in their knowledge of that subject, whereas non-Christian children are not required to be graded in their knowledge of scripture in the public schools.

There are too many holes in your argument to list here. I do sincerely believe you are simply venting that chip on your shoulder that causes you to hate or dislike Christians, without any thought whatsoever for reality or the implications of your suggestions.

I do not wish to use the legal system to restrict any practice of any religion unless that practice violates the freedoms of another person involuntarily.

No. No one has to believe as I do. I just don't want them to enact laws that force me to act the way they want me to.

Let me give you an example. The Defense Of Marriage Act was a law that passed in Congress to directly allow states to not recognize same-sex marriages performed in another state. This is in direct violation of the 14th amendment to the US Constitution and was passed because of the incessant lobbying of Fundamentalist Christian groups. Then the administration issued an order to the judiciary that lawsuits questioning the Constitutionality of DOMA were not to be tried by the Supreme Court. That was a direct imposition of a religious code to restrict the freedom of a portion of the US population who's actions were not violating any other person's freedoms.

Doesn't look like tolerance to me.

So my question still remains...if they have no problem enacting laws that impose their religious code upon one group of people (homosexuals) why do they have a problem enacting laws to impose their religious code upon another group of people (Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim)?

Please provide a reference to anywhere that I said I want MY beliefs imposed upon others.

This is not about evolution/creationism. It is about the inconsistency in the teaching and actions of the Christians who want to impose laws that align with their religion's moral code.


What you believe is the impetus for my argument has no relevance here. If you can provide one of the holes in my argument maybe we can start off discussing that.

Boy, that's a tongue twister. let's break that statement down and take a better look at it...

I do not wish to use the legal system to restrict any practice of any religion..

all things should be permitted...

unless that practice violates the freedoms of another person involuntarily.

hmmm.. this part is difficult, the tongue twister part... unless that practice (beliefs, rituals, habits, traditions, customs) violates the freedoms (the desires, the beliefs, the goals, the unlimited rights) .. of another person involuntarily... (the innocent victim/the believer of ritual sacrifice, the rape victim/the practicer of hedonism, just two examples easy to see enough we could go on all day)...

so I am confused, if we stop people from performing ritual sacrifice or raping, we protect tpossible victims but we violate the freedom of the other two, the practicers of sacrifice and hedonism or sadism, to freely practice their beliefs and customs, we violate their rights to freely exist.

You statement has some flaws even though it appears benign and righteous. Do you promote a pro-life stance? do you desire to protect the lives of the unborn or do you promote the idea that a victim, the denial of life to one, is sometimes neceassary to achieve the goals and satisfy the beliefs of another person? So, how does your statement stand in that context? It doesn't. just because you do not recognize the unborn as a life does not mean others must agree with you.



A vote in congess indicates a majority in favor of a certain opinion. The only place it is in direct violation of the 14th amendment to the US Constitution is in the minds of people like yourself who see themselves and their beliefs as more worthy of protection than others. But obviously, in the case of The Defense Of Marriage Act, your opinion is the minority. You fail to recognize the rights of others who do not believe that the recognition of same sex marriages is proper nor that they should be required to recognize such unions in direct conflict with their basic beliefs and long held traditions.

So, even though you state that you don't want anyone to enact laws that force you to act the way others want to act, you none-the-less are arguing incessantly that others should act the way you act, regardless of their beliefs.

the majority disagrees with you Linear. You are a dictator in a freeman's clothing but your jacket is invisible.

I think what's being overlooked here is the original intention of this thread -- at least as far as I interpret it (LinearAq, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). And if what I have to say here is not at the heart of this thread then, well, I'm asking it anyway, heh.

I see the issue as this. Anyone who makes statements like America is suffering because it is no longer Christian must, by default, have serious issues with all non-Christian religions. Or, at the very least, they must want them out of their own country and out of sight.

To put it another way, let us say that I am a Christian. Let us also say, arguendo, that I believe America is a diminishing nation because it is no longer a Christian nation. Purely from my own standpoint, I'm going to see any and all non-Christians, even the most passive of religions such as Buddhism or Wicca, as heathens, infidels, usurpers and otherwise a hindrance to my country. After all, America is disintigrating before our very eyes because it's no longer Christian, right? According to this line of thinking, there is no room for things like religious tolerance. We're at war here, folks. America is being attached because of its non-Christian aspect. Therefore anything not Christian is the enemy.

To these people who subscribe to such beliefs I ask, how do you so much as have even the vaguest hint of tolerance for non-Christian religions (as well as agnostics and atheists)? Are these not the very false faiths which have caused our country's downfall? How can someone say they do not persecute non-Christians and that America is entering a downward spiral because it's no longer Christian in the same breath? I don't see this as possible without being a hypocrite, but feel free to show me where I'm wrong.

It's for this reason that I want to see the Christians of the forum (no, not all Christians, the ones who believe this nonsense about America's downfall) say word for word that they hate and want to see all other relgions done away with. How can you think anything other than that? Please enlighten me.

As for these remarks about me having issues with Christians, I have no issue with any religion. I have issues with how certain religions are abused to promote unrelated agendas. Moreover, it is simply in my nature to observe contradictions in highly opinionated statements. As far as I know, no one can say America is suffering because it's not Christian and also claim that they have absolutely no issues whatosoever with, for example, Buddhists. They're either the enemy, the direct result of America's problems, or they're not.

Hey PWCCA,

Sorry about the Duccess thing I just glanced at the closing... Wow - I have a lot to catch up on here. We've been putting in tile and painting.

PWCCA: Conversely, whereas you see me as being "lost" for my religious upbringing, I in turn do not see you or other Christians as lost. I see all religions as a chosen path. Different folks different strokes. It would indeed be a sad world, sickened by sameness if everyone across the globe shared the same religion.

Me: While I admittedly get bored around nothing but Mormons...and prefer not to live in UT, (although its not even predominantly LDS anymore) I do believe in my faith or else I wouldn't be in this church... But it doesn't take away our individuality, obviously, and we all come from different backgrounds. I did not grow up LDS, but joined the church when I was 15. I was searching at that point after my dad died when I was 12 when he was only 38. Life after death matters suddenly meant a lot to me...I'm still the only member in my family.
Anything Celtic is interesting to me. I don't know if you are from Ireland/Scotland?? My roots are there on my father's side. (There is supposed to be a Culbertson County there...or something like that). Anyway - I looked it up on the net but honestly don't know or understand what you believe from the brief glance reading up on it. I am also part Native American...not much, but I've always related with it - look somewhat native at least in the cheekbones and have been asked by Natives what my tribe is. I wonder if their methods of looking to the earth or at least respecting her is not unlike yours? That probably sounds dumb....I really don't know what they even believe in detail. We (LDS - Mormons) believe the earth has a spirit.... I do think there is something to be said about being in touch with or in tune with nature, though. We don't believe in needlessly killing - hunting for the pleasure, etc.

I think there is good, as a rule in all Christian churches - and truth.... I think there is probably truth in all churches (meaning non-Christian). We just believe our church has all the puzzle pieces I guess you could say. As far as God has revealed it.... As far as other faiths, I can't speak for what I don't fully understand or know about. If you are raised a certain way obviously that is what you know. I would honestly be interested in understanding what you do practice or believe even in private if need be. Not interesting in converting....just curious and interested just for understanding purposes.

But as far as America suffering because of no longer being Christian...... Again - I see good in all other faiths which are Christian and in other faiths period. I live in the south here - the Bible belt - and I feel we are blessed because of all the good people here. I like the people here. My daughter also works for a guy from India who I believe is Hindu. Both my daughters worked there at one time and have been to dinner at their house. (Lots of statues). They treat her like a daughter. They don't like that we don't let her work Sundays and we had to go in so they'd let her off July 4th when her own dad was performing at a big concert here....but they've grown to accept our ways and we accept theirs. And obviously other religions that practice the good in their religions as in Muslims, etc. are doing the best they know how (not the fanatical heretic, obviously - jihadists). I do respect everyone's right to believe as they see fit. I haven't really thought of America's state in that light to be honest, and would have to ponder it.

I do, however, believe that this nation was built on tenets of faith and when we turn against Him... and practice abortion... molest children....whoredoms....child abuse....murder...corruption....(notice how where the Mardi Gras took place was wiped out?) and yes....same-sex marriage. Those things will bring His judgments upon us to humble and wake us up for one thing. (Obviously not all natural disasters happen to bad people doing bad things, though).

Anyway - not sure if this addresses your questions. Ask away if not.

Bex and all,

I do think that we are held to a higher standard knowing better....but irregardless the commandments are for our own good. They are natural laws even. (With reference to moral codes).

This is partially what is the heart of the thread. However, it is not entirely about the hypocrisy in bemoaning the lack of Christian values in our country and claiming acceptance of other faiths. People can have their opinions, even hypocritical ones.

It is the call to arms by the Fundamentalist Christians against the anti-Christian values which is contradicted by their overt hesitancy to oppose the anti-Christian religions. What is more anti-Christian than Hinduism? Well maybe your religion.

It is their contrary actions within the legal system that are a problem. If they wish to enact laws that force people to follow their moral code, why not target the worst offenders?

The difference is that you are questioning the contrariness of their thoughts and I am questioning the contrariness of their actions.

I guess I could say you are close enough for government work, though.

I'm catching up and I know it gets answered later on, but yes, Moroni was a man who contributed to the Book of Mormon - wrote one of the books of the Book of Mormon - and was a religious leader at that time. We have statues of the angel Moroni atop our temples because he was the angel who appeared to Joseph Smith to teach him where to find the plates which Moroni - in life - had buried in order to obviously protect them to come forth in this "dispensation" for our use and guidance in the latter days in companionship with the Bible.

I'm still not good at quoting...but where, SoSick, you refer to the Book of Mormon not likely being a record of the Native Americans...it was a record made and kept by religious leaders - prophets, etc. Originally Lehi brought over from the middle east the records they had of their genealogy as well as scripture so they could teach their descendants. Nephi - Lehi's son - was the one who first started writing on the plates. It became a type of "reformed" egyptian - a bit of a variation of the language due to them being separate from their original culture for so long. On a sidenote there, when you watch The Passion of the Christ...in Hebrew it sounds much like the language of the Native Americans to me.. Of course all the different tribes began varying their own languages as well. I mean they've been here since before Christ. There were also other people's who settled here. One group which came over separate of Lehi's family died out. They had come over at the time of the tower of babel. There was a lot of war and bloodshed. They lived what we call the pride cycle. They would be righteous and prosper, then become prideful, then have wars and destruction which would humble them.. They would repent, become righteous, then prosper, then become prideful...etc. etc. Similar, actually, to us now. I think of our country of being in a pride cycle right now - and being humbled.... There was a period of total peace and prosperity for 300 years after Christ appeared here and taught the Gospel. They did have some great civilizations at one time. The Book of Mormon prophets prophesied of His coming from the beginning of their civilization. (They came over knowing of His coming). Parts of one of the books quotes quite a bit from Isaiah. I need to start reading it again... I'm ashamed I don't know it in detail as much as I should - but I've read it several times. It's actually quite a good read. Anyway - when they were at peace their civilization was amazing. But the book was not widely known among the people. It was a record kept of the goings on concerning the wars, teachings of the prophets, the coming of Christ and the history of the people as witnessed by its writers till it was hid up. The Nephites were destroyed and Moroni was the last known surviving Nephite. The Lamanites are the ones left and they were scattered pretty much from that point. I don't think there was much in the way of a written record with them other than that. The Book of Mormon plates were found long before we even knew about the ruins discovered down south.

I think my great great grandmother was Cherokee. We aren't positive - she married an Englishman : )

Linear, are you American? If not where from if you don't mind?

You may be saying this in jest..but you can't kill a ghost...
You may be able to drive it off, but spirits are eternal. Were you serious Linear??

What is not to understand? Do you think your rights usurp someone else's rights? I am sure that you don't believe that. So, the exercise of your personal rights should be allowed as long as they don't trample on the rights of others. Basically, your rights are restricted to the boundaries where they don't take away someone else's rights.

Any action that has victims is not considered a right...our laws are for protecting the rights of the individual. So actions that violate an individual's rights cannot be rights.

The unborn don't have a legal status under the law. They didn't have a legal status under the Bible laws either. Causing a miscarriage was not considered murder unless the woman died. See Exodus 21:22-23
Would you say the child's life is more important than the mother's life? Regardless, this is a subject best left for another thread. Care to start an anti-abortion thread?

So you believe that the majority vote should rule regardless of how it affects the rights of the minority?

Looks like another subject that you would like to talk about. Maybe you could start that new thread with an explanation of how making same sex marriages legal prevents you from being allowed to believe it is wrong.

Which one of my statements requires you to act contrary to your belief system?


The majority could vote for enslaving all illegal aliens but I doubt that would make it right. I am a dictator for wanting the most freedoms for the most people...interesting.

U.S. Citizen through and through.

So Sick, I appreciate this....that you are bothering to ask me. There is a lot of misinformation out there concerning our religion. I almost said there are OUR websites like www.mormon.org and JesusChrist.lds.org which are specifically there to address questions. The one site, I think, Linear sent was fairly accurate but its always better to get it from us. I'm not sure if wikipedia is necessarily accurate for anything. I know for school reports our kids can't use it due to that.

So Sick: Yes I could have. But I didn't because I am waiting for a reply from a mormon, not an article or opinion from wiki.

Linear, the laws are established with the good of all in mind, the majority in most cases, Linear. wityh some exceptions, abortion for instance, because women have been known to hurt themslevs in order to not have babies when abortion is made illegal, so there are some issues there. That law, though anti-christian in value, is actually with the good of all in mind. Most Christians do not accept the ethical validity of it, however neither do they want to see women imprisoned for having abortions in extreme cases.

If you want to impose minority rule you will have to get yourself declared dictator and hold that rule somehow against the opinion of the majority lest you be usurped..

most dictators start by forming an army or militia to take over the existing govt by coup d'etat.

Good luck with it Linear.

Well I guess I have some issues with the idea of the fable.. Moroni et al... it's a nice story I'm sure but until Joseph Smith came along, and even until this day, the native indians, those who are suppose to be the people the story is about, they don't know the story, they have others, and none of their lineage can be found either.

So, that is a bit of a problem.

Have you ever had any serious discussions with psychics? they can speak to spirits, some of them you know... and certain spirits do know all sorts of little details about things... because they actually do exist on a certain level... and they interfere in people's lives etc... they lived at some point in the past etc... but spirits are not always truthful that is the problem.

If this guy moroni is suppose to be an angel that was once a man, why are there no other examples of this in the KJV? You'd think if anyone deserved to be an angel it would be Moses, maybe King David, but no, no such thing exists... and the idea that moroni's brethren are kept in chains and bondage... the only place angels are referred to in that respect is in regard to the fallen angels that kept not their first estate etc. The KJV tells us directly not to harken to revelations (new ideas, revealed things that are not revealed in scripture) of angels. The new age movement is so full of various angels for instance... and most of their teaching will lead a person straight to hell, they go well against what is taught in the bible. How do we follow two contrasting laws without acknowledging in our hearts that we are breaking one of them in order to follow the other? We give lip service to one but we lean on the other?

and then the mormon idea of being god of your own planet after you die from this life.. correct me if I am wrong there... but how is that a companion to the biblical idea of us spending our eternity with Jesus and YHVH in heaven, where God has many 'mansions' and Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us? The devil told Eve she would be like God, I do have to say, it sounds distinctly familar to the promises made by mormonism.

How do you expect to be one of the 10,000's of saints coming on the clouds with Jesus of you are a little god somewhere, no longer just a saint, on your own little planet somewhere?

None of this stuff is in the bible. Moses never knew it either. And Jesus never mentioned it once.

Oops - sorry - not Linear - PWCCA. Not sure I got that right either. The Duchess : )

SoSick,

Where did I say that I wanted the minority to rule? The majority should rule but not at the expense of the minority.

You and I both know this democracy with individual freedom as the cornerstone is a complex proposition. You clearly revealed your understanding of that complexity with your statements about abortion.

This requirement to maintain individual freedom means that the effect of every law on every citizen should be considered. Laws that allow privileges for one group while denying them to others should not be enacted without careful consideration as to the Constitutionality of that law. The Supreme Court exists to prevent the continuation of unConstitutional laws.

Anyway, the question of this thread is:

Why do Evangelical Christians want to enact laws to restrict "unChristian" activities but don't want to enact laws that restrict the biggest unChristian activities of all...namely non-Christian faiths?

....The majority should rule but not at the expense of the minority.....


Linear, if a certain thing, that is perceived to be for the good fo all infringes on the 'rights' of some people somehwre, rights that are in conflict with what is perceieved to be in the best interest of society, then tha is just the way it has to be.

I don't think you'll find a single law on the books that someone somewhere doesn;t feel slighted by. The thief wants to steal. the murderer wants to kill. The liar wants to cheat. A man somewhere wants to have a bestial relationship with his neighbors dog. And the homosexual wants to marry and teach his ways to Christian children by forcing acceptance of his lifestyle upon them.

If this were truly Sodom it would be possible because of majority acceptance of all those thuinsg already but apparently we are not quite there yet.

though you may find Christians hypocritical fro allowing other religions to exist beside tem, most Christians feel quite teh opposite. We do believe God has a plan. forcing our beliefs upon others, forcing them to 'believe' is not something we believe is possible, as in islam for instance. Christians believe that faith is a matter of the heart, an individual choice.. a work of God even. so, if muslims want to build a mosque next door to a christian church, that is fine, that will give us an opportunuity to get to know and share with our muslim neighbors.

We simply love them more than you do Linear, more than you love Christians or persons of any religion, no matter their religion, and because we love them, they will accept us and maybe someday even become one of us, as the Lord leads them. We do respect their faith even if we don't fully agree with it. There is absolutely no requiremnt within Christianity that says all people must be Christians. If people desire to worship other gods, even unto their eternity, that is their choice Linear... in our eyes if at least we give them a chance to hear about Jesus then we have done what the Lord has required of us. But there is no guarantee they will listen, ever. It's ok Linear, really it is. you should try being as tolerant yourself. a little bit of love for those you perceive as your enemy today... it goes a long way Linear.. try inviting someone you don't like at all out to dinner sometime. You'll feel differently about them when your imagination isn't running overtime. Everyone has a story to tell.

I think I'm starting to see where you are coming from Linear. I do believe in freedoms, too. But I don't believe in same sex marriage either. Sodomy use to be illegal. It technically still is in some states as far as I know. The US Army didn't even allow for it. Now they have a don't ask, don't tell policy. At basic training I use to have to shower with the other ladies in a big shower room and had to just tune out cause I've always been modest. There was apparently a lesbian among us. Never knew for sure who but finally figured it out, I believe. I would never just shower in front of another guy other than my husband.... It use to freak me out when they would talk about how we might have to all strip down if we'd been under chemical attack. Now they practically have coed basic training. They don't sleep in the same room but aren't separated like we were. That may seem off track and void of a point... I'm not real focused today cause I need to be helping my husband paint. But because of how things are mixed up more you are seeing murders of pregnant women. Its not right to me to be put in those situations even as opposite sex and kind of creepy to think you have to be subjected to leering eyes of the same sex in situations you normally wouldn't. (This lesbian did end up asking me to go away with her after Basic.....)

I am kind to homosexuals. But I do not see it as normal for them or for society. If anything I've seen their agenda pushed onto kids through curriculum. It would not constitute a normal marriage or family. I can see the argument loophole here in that even heterosexual couples need to sometimes adopt, but you are affecting a child bringing them into a homosexual relationship. It is so confusing to kids. I see them. Kids that would never have even considered being homosexual are experimenting with it due to its prevalance in society. There are physiological reasons anal sex is, obviously, not healthy. And for emotional and most importantly, spiritual reasons it is not healthy. We are not made that way. It is not natural. I don't believe its healthy for those practicing it and I don't think their agenda is healthy for society. I have strong feelings about this irregardless of my religious beliefs - but my religious beliefs teach me about the sanctity of the family. In my faith we even believe it can continue into eternity. But as a statement made by leaders of our church state - there are no female spirits trapped in male bodies or vice versa.

Anyway - for those reasons....I do believe that it will bring our society down. I love America Linear.

In 1995, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued “The Family: A Proclamation to the World.” This proclamation is a declaration and reaffirmation of doctrines and practices that prophets have stated repeatedly throughout the history of the Church. It contains principles that are vital to the happiness and well-being of every family. Family members should study the proclamation and should live by its precepts.

“We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.

“All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

“In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.

“The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

“We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’s eternal plan.

“Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. ‘Children are an heritage of the Lord’ (Psalms 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, to teach them to love and serve one another, to observe the commandments of God and to be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

“The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

“We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

“We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society”

Lying is not against the law, otherwise advertising agents would be out of a job.
Stealing has never been a right, nor murder, nor bestiality(cruelty to animals). All of those are examples of things that trample on other's rights.
How is the legalization of same-sex marriage forcing the acceptance of their lifestyle on Christian children any more than the legalization of the Muslim religion is forcing the acceptance of the Muslim lifestyle on Christian children. It might be better to answer this in the same-sex marriage thread that I started.

If it is not any different then why are you not in support of ridding this country of the Muslim, Buddhist, New Age religions?

....but not share with our homosexual neighbors...


This is nice rhetoric and I believe it is the way many Christians feel about people of other faiths. However that does not really explain the contrary actions taken by people of the Christian faith. How can you show tolerance toward people who break one moral code and no tolerance toward people who break a different one of your moral codes?

You can argue and argue but the real cause of America's backsliding is the worship of a false god.

The false god I am referring to is money, which can be worshiped regardless of what religion you belong to.

Actually Linear, false advertising is most defintely illegal.

Some homosexuals do attend church. The large majority however hate Christians and don't mix with them. They have chosen to live that way, their own choice. There is no sign on the church door that says 'Homos stay out'.



Such as? You really have to be more direct. Vague inferences are just you and your game playing, you making accusations without anyone really knowing what you are accusing them of.

I would probably agree with that.

However, if read the very first post of the thread you'll notice its actually about Linear and his pillar of baloney accusations and pretentious beliefs about others more than anything else anyway.

Got the DE, gd!

Kelp and Redmond too.

Like it!

My post here is addressing Linear's.

I'd like to point out once again, that it's not down to "my" opinion, but God's word in the bible. Why must I keep pointing this out? I am not forcing anybody into anything, do you not have a free will as I do? As a Christian, it is right to inform and warn people if that is what we have been told to do by Christ should they lose their way and ultimately their own souls.... What kind of a Christian does not? when Christ has given such dire warnings?

I too will have to account not only for my sins, but also my "ommissions". Christ never forced anybody either, He gave strong truths and many walked away from Him (some did worse to Him as you know). They did not want to hear that which did not tickle their ears. Christ gave us truths, filled with hope and the glory of the afterlife/ressurection, but also other truths, harsh and sobering.

Now, if it's ok for those on here to express their contrary to Christ views and not have that seen as force....why is it suddenly "force" when I express God's word from the bible? How is it "not forcing" when it's a viewpoint of "unbelief" or "liberalism", yet it's forcing if it's "fundamental Christianity"....one rule for you guys and one rule for the rest of us?

What one may consider as a "right" or "sexual freedom", may not be seen as a right or "freedom" from our side, and certainly, if we are to believe Christ, is anything BUT "freedom" and "rights", but instead captivity in sin which leads to eternal death, which Christ died on the cross to redeem us from (should we accept it). What you may consider "forcing" from fundamentalists, is very much misinterpreted and perhaps deliberately so. The gospel is preached for the good of others and the hope of saving souls, not for their undoing! However, if this is the way you wish to accuse, then one could turn it back just as easily, considering sin is hardly a "right" or "freedom", unless of course Christ lied and died in vain.

You may wish to present fundamental Christianity as "force", but the opposite is actually true. The amount of filth that is forced onto us all (and children) on a daily basis through TV, books, society itself speaks volumes..... I can hardly watch television anymore without it. If I want to avoid that, I have to go out of my way to do so, or turn the TV off. THere is ONE channel that preaches the gospel on my TV, and some bibles lying on my bookshelf, neither of which force me into viewing or reading, but are an invitation always. Yet there are many more reading/viewing material of adultery/fornication and total disregard to God and His commandments on a daily basis throughout so many other areas of life. Great for the kids eh? And yet you talk about the force of "fundamental Christianity"...when in fact, the opposite seems to prevail "unnoticed". I actually have to seek any Christianity out, search for it and hold onto it! I'll tell you where I get my sanity. Not from this degraded/corrupted and "liberal" society, but THE BIBLE, prayer/Christ and those like-minded in Christ(whom I consider brothers and sisters in Christ).

If it was down to my personal flawed opinion, outside of Christ? I wouldn't have much of an issue with homosexuality, NOR fornication. I'd have no ultimate reason to do so. If we arose without purpose and without an ultimate law giver, then we can decide for ourselves and your "rights" do not have to be "mine" or anybody else's. We can do whatever WE decide is "ok".

However, this is not about my wordly and flawed eyed opinion. This is very much down to what God Himself has commanded and stated throughout the bible and it is most definitely HIS business! As much as we may wish to cherry pick, the bible is not a smorgus board. Do you really think that I find it easy to try and comply with everything? Of course not. Because I'm a sinner and I have temptations/weaknesss like everybody else. Problems with purity and all those things that I'm sure we all battle with. Now, is it "sexual freedom"? or is it a gift that has no right to be misused/abused from a loving God who gave that to each of us to express responsibly and within marriage for bonding/procreation? I need to wake up and quit seeing things through the eyes of "men", and open my mind and my heart to an unlimited God who died on my account (on yours too).

Men are limited, flawed, sinful. God is unlimited, loving, perfect, selfless (died on a cross for me (and you)....this is why when people who close their minds and hearts to Christ, consider this "open minded" which winds up meaning absolutely nothing and becomes nothing more than a contradictory cliche and a flawed one at that. I can open my mind to anything (to drugs too if I want). Does that make me "open minded"? Am I "open minded" because I'm "willing to accept anything, so long as it's not God"? or it's "outside of His will for us"? Is someone being open minded when they experiment sexually, going so far as to try out animals and children too? You see how the "open minded" comments start to look absoultely ludicrous when they are exposed for what they are?

I try instead to open my mind and my heart to the one whom knows all things. Opening my mind up to the things of the world got me nowhere, except on a winding slope downwards, remaining in a state of blindness, inertia and deadness. Christ most definitely IS light and IS life.

All persons are called to holiness without exception. Nothing is impossible with God. Even the worst sinner can become a saint with the grace of God. Part of this process is humility and being honest with ourselves and God and opening ourselves up to His grace, so that He can work in us. We all have the tendency to rebel (after the fall). Our sin nature is something God encourages us to battle and at the end of it all the rewards far outweigh the temporary difficulties and falls we have during our lifetime (which He is always there to help us back up).

Satan himself rebelled and encourages us to do likewise. It is a spiritual battle more than anything else! It's not a bad thing, I'd like to have something to show for what God has done for me and promised for me. If God did not allow consequences for sin and free will, we would never grow and learn from our own sin, or anybody else's. Our maturity would be stunted spiritually. Christ set the example and had a tough life. Nobody can ever say "God doesn't know how it feels". He knows intimately.

Regarding the sanctity of marriage/adultery:















On leading others astray concerning the biblical word of God, through the prophets/witnesses inspired by the Holy Spirit:



I hope that might be enough for now Linear, there are more, but I am tired.

you know what also, speaking of false advertising being illegal... the homosexual claim that homosexuality is a healthy lifestyle.. that is false advertising isn't it? Especially when it is promoted in writing and given to innocent and impressionable school chidren without any mention of possible side effects from certain types of behavior..

Anyone who has ever done internal cleanses, parasite cleanses, colonics and/or enemas knows for a fact that sodomy, for instance, is a very dangerous form of behavior that can cause some pretty serious health issues and spread some pretty hefty diseases. even oral sex, likewise.

We hold candy bar manufacturers to higher standards than educators.

I agree sosick, but what many people fail to realise (or want to acknowledge) is not just the physical aspects of it being unnatural (even in nature), but the spiritual aspects and consequences of indulging/engaging in such behaviours. We have been warned, and are without excuse, since ignorance (after being informed, particularly from God's word) can no longer be feigned.

The bible does not condemn those with homosexual tendencies/feelings, but rather engaging in the act. many of us have weaknesses through the fall and God is fully aware of that. And in fact, for those people, it is a trial. Just as it is for somebody who is ill and missed out on any relationship, ultimately hoping for marriage. Someone who has been unable to conceive children (not for want of trying). etc. Many many of us are injured in one way or the other. But through God's grace, we have the means and strength to battle and the reward for doing so, particularly to those who suffer more temptations/weaknesses than others, will be beyond anything this world could ever hope to offer.

This life is temporary and death is certain.

Well it's a hard world, Bex. especially when you calculate in the way people mistreat each other.

Even Jesus did stumble under the cross, a common man helped him carry it...

Jeanie,

Yes I saw that movie and thought the aramaic sounded like native american too. thing is, like I mentioned, there is a lot of archeological evidence that suggests at least some of the native americans were in fcat decended from hebrews, and phonecians.

you can find a lot of info and photos of artifacts on the web.

http://gdrocks.org/default.aspx

I think given the evidence we have today, there really isn't much argumnet about it except by people who don't want to admit our common descent from one people, for their own personal agenda reasons.

However, regarding the book of mormon and angels, I also have to recommend caution. Because surely if you believe the bible you believe angels do exist, that they are with us, for better or worse, that evil is a presence as well as an idea... and I am well awre of the fact that the devil, who is also an angel and can appear as an angel of light, the devil mixes fact with fiction, lies with truth... and as in the case of so many false revelations/religions, he will declare so much truth and just enough of a lie to entrap people very skillfully, but in a way that leads them very much in the wrong direction with so much truth and just a few little lies... like you will be as God, or a god... The very one item that caused the downfall of Adam and Eve. Because of course who would not want to be like God, so perfect? So holy? but there is only one God and he isn't planning on sharing the throne to the best of my knowledge. In fact, Satan himself was tossed out of heaven for declaring himself to be god as well and for desiring the worship of mankind. In the wilderness, Jesus is tempted by the devil. The devil tells Jesus that he will give him many kingdoms if only he would worship him.

Matthew 4: 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Joseph Smith was also accomplished mason. Brigham Young, who succeeded him, was a master mason. Both share backgrounds, interest and experiences quite similar to those of Aleister Crowley (the admitted satanist and also a master mason) who also received revelations from angels, having an encounter an entity known as Aiwass.

Surely, even the virgin mother had revelations from angels, or an angel. The bible tells us to test the spirits.

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

There are major differences between the Jesus of Mormonism and the Jesus of the KJV. As well as major differences with God, YHVH, himself.


There's a page here that lists some
http://mmoutreachinc.com/mormons/morchristjesus.html

Exactly how do mormons deal with the differences between mormon theology and the KJV in order to make the claim that they are Christians, when the label 'Christian' itself implies that one is a follower of Christ as the bible teaches Christ Jesus, not a follower of Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, or even King David or Solomon?

I think those are probably some of the most basic questions most mainstream Christians have about Mormonism, that are rarely or never fully addressed by mormons.

There are a few warnings given about other gospels in the KJV, here is one:

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
---

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. ...

.. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.




anyway, nothing personal.. just in case you weren't aware..

There's even this UFO contactee guy by the name of Billy Meir who supposedly discovered some writings in Jerusalem in 1963, after his contacts with 'angels/aliens', called 'The Talmud Jmmanuel' which is the story of a man named Jmmanuel, written supposedly 2,000 years ago on Aramaic scrolls. and of course it is suggested by some that the Talmud Jmmanuel is the basis for the Gospel of Matthew and contains the original logia and teachings of Jmmanuel who, in subsequent years, became known as Jesus.

I mean, you know, Jeanie, this type of stuff goes on and on... a brand new jesus appears every year since the world first heard the name... the bible warns us directly the devil will do this..

EXCERPTS FROM THE TALMUD OF JMMANUEL
The Talmud of Jmmanuel: The Clear Translation in English and German (Paperback)
by Eduard Meier, J. H. Ziegler (Translator), B. L. Greene (Translator)

Chapter 5

The Sermon on the Mount

I. When Jmmanuel saw the people following him, he went up a hill and sat down; and his disciples came to him.

2. And he taught them, saying:

3. "Blessed are those who are rich in spirit and recognize the truth, for life is theirs.

4. "Blessed are those who endure hardship, for they shall thus recognize truth and be comforted.

5. "Blessed are the spiritually balanced, for they shall possess knowledge.

6. "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for truth and knowledge, for they shall be satisfied.

7. "Blessed are those who live according to the laws of nature, for they live according to the plan of Creation.

8. "Blessed are those who have a clear conscience, for they need not fear.

9. "Blessed are those who know about Creation, for they are not enslaved by false teachings.

10. "Blessed are the righteous, for nature is subject to them.

I I. "Blessed are you if, on my account and because of our teachings, people revile and persecute you and speak all manner of evil against you; thus they lie about the teachings.

12. "Be of good cheer and take comfort; this life and the next life will reward you. For so have the belittlers of the truth persecuted the prophets who were before you, and so will they also persecute you.

13. "You are the salt of the Earth, and if the salt loses its flavor with what would one salt? It is useless henceforth, except it be thrown out and stepped on by the people.

14. "You are the light of the world, and consider: The city that lies on top of a mountain cannot be hidden.

15. "One does not light a candle and place it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; thus it shines for all those who are in the house.

16. "Likewise your light shall shine before the people, so they see your good deeds and recognize the truth of your knowledge.

17. "Do not think that I have come to do away with the law or the prophet; I have come not to undo, but to fulfill and to reveal the knowledge.

18. "Truly, I say to you: Until the heavens and the Earth vanish, neither a letter nor a dot of the law of Creation and the laws of nature will vanish, until all is fulfilled.

19. "Whosoever violates one of the smallest of the laws or directives and teaches the people falsely, will be called the smallest; but whosoever spreads the teachings truthfully will be called great and will receive the reward of the spirit.

20. "I tell you: If your righteousness does not exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not receive the reward of the spirit and of life.

21. "You have heard that it was said to your ancestors:' You shall not kill; but whosoever kills shall be found guilty by the courts.'

22. "However, I say to you: Exercise justice according to the natural laws of Creation, so that you find the judgment in logic.

...

...THE TWELVE COMMANDMENTS

Chapter 23 (continued)

The Greatest Commandment

31. But when the Pharisees heard that Jmmanuel had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered and deliberated.

32. And one among them, a scribe, tested him by asking, Jmmanuel, which is the foremost commandment in the law?"

33. Jmmanuel asked in return, "Whose law are you thinking of, the law of the emperor, or are you thinking of the law of god, or are you thinking of the law of Creation?"

34. The scribe said, "l am thinking of the laws of all three."

35. But Jmmanuel said, "The highest directive in the law of Creation is this: Achieve the wisdom of knowledge, so that you may wisely follow the laws of Creation.

36. "But the highest commandment of the law of god is this: You shall honor god as the ruler of the three human lineages and obey his laws, for he is their king of wisdom and a good and just counselor.

37. "And the highest command of the laws of the emperor is this: You shall be obedient to the emperor, follow his laws and give to him the tithe, because he is the ruler over the people and their guardian and protector

38. "These are the foremost and greatest commandments in the laws of the three, as applied to their categories.

39. "But the other directive, equal to the first, is this: You shall consider only Creation as omnipotent, for it alone is constant in all things and therein is timeless.

40. "The emperor and god are transitory, but Creation is eternal.


It goes on and on:
http://exopolitics.blogs.com/exopolitics_billy_meier_c/2005/10/excerpts_from_t.html

and it's nothing more than a mockery of scripture and Christ, sort of like the book of mormon.

Mormon means devil in japanese btw so they don't generally call themselves that over there. Some people say Nephi is short for nephilim.

And there's even this so-called christian guy going around various christian churches these days who claims to be led by some angel named 'Emma' and his rather odd stories sound like this:


Bentley’s angels sound more like descriptions we read of aliens from those who have had close encounters of the third kind. He can be seen giving his wild story of being abducted by them and then operated on in what he describes as looking like “an autopsy room.”

“I’m wrestling with God he says ‘get in the pillar of fire’ so I get in to the pillar of fire – as soon as I get in to the pillar of fire my entire body starts going RAAAAAAR and I go up through the church roof in the pillar of fire, it’s transporting me- I’m in the pillar of fire, its like beam me up, up through this pillar, I’m through the church roof and all of a sudden I, I land, when I say land I mean crash on an operating table in heaven … I’m in this room appear four angels … two angels stood on the other side of the operating table and honest truth they wrenched me down, I don’t know what it was they tied me down with but all of a sudden my hands and my ankles were fastened to this table but don’t tell me, this is a little graphic. … And all of a sudden I hear this sound like a miter saw rrrrrrrr a miter saw like one of those things before brain surgery, they rrrr . y’know they cut your skull , they pick this thing up and… they stuck it in me right here on my neck and it didn’t hurt but here’s what happened they went (sound of cutting him open) right down to my lowards and all of sudden my stomach went pooch and everything inside of me popped out onto the table, my heart, my liver like everything. And I’m lying there and you want to scream because you think it should hurt but it doesn’t hurt. and you’re lying there and you’re arrr arrr all your insides are, here’s the strangest thing. so then here’s what happens the angels start taking these white boxes… and they start stuffing these things inside of me. They’re stuffing these boxes all over and I heard the verse ‘I desire truth in the inward parts.’”

http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/a-new-obsession-with-angels/


sad thing is, a lot of Christians take him seriously. He may be serious, but those angels are not of God and he is either very deceived or in league with them, perhaps believing he will get some kingdom as a reward, his own planet, who knows...

Should we start doing a comparison count of yours and Pwcca's insulting remarks to see who comes out on top?

I understand that you believe I am accusing all Christians of contrary behavior but I am not. Only the ones who are trying to restrict personal freedoms of US citizens.

Joseph Smith was nothing but a farm boy who learned lots of skills (mostly farming) from being poor and having to support himself. I've never heard anything about him having anything to do with masonry. And Brigham Young was a carpenter. I will look into that, but even if he was skilled in that it doesn't mean he was affiliated with the free mason stuff... That's news to me and doubtful - but irregardless, twisted. Even the Lord told Joseph Smith his name would be had for both good and evil. Lots of inaccuracies have been spread about him. Actually he was spoken of in the Bible....the apostasy was, too, as well as a need for a restoration. I know even you realize that things changed and have not been the same since not too long after Christ's church was established.

As far as our concept of Jesus Christ, it is no different other than that we believe He also existed in the pre-existence or pre-mortal realm with all of us as a spirit child of Heavenly Father. We see Him and our Heavenly Father as being two distinct beings and the holy ghost as a separate being as well (only without a body). Concerning satan - he was our brother in spirit. He fell because he was jealous of Jesus - who was from the beginning Heavenly Father's firstborn even in spirit. Jesus was chosen from the beginning to be our Savior. lucifer didn't want us to carry out the plan as it was presented where we would all have a choice. his idea was to make sure every one of us made it back to Heaven in God's presence through force but he wanted to get all the glory and pretty much be our God. He rebelled and turned evil because of his huge ego and pride. He was cast out of heaven and onto this earth as a spirit along with the 3rd of the hosts of heaven who followed him. They will never get bodies - that is why they want to possess us. They are very bitter, angry, jealous, and want to destroy us. But are allowed to be here until the Millenial Reign in order for us to be tested. They will eventually be sent to outer darkness. We kept our first estate and are now here with bodies separate from God physically at least to prove ourselves and learn to live by faith - but we do have our spirits to guide us - our spirits which once lived with Heavenly Father and Jesus...(our spirits know the truth....) and of course we have the Holy Ghost to guide us. Some other faiths think we don't revere Christ the same due to our belief that He existed with us in the pre-mortal life but we were still not on the same level as Him even there. He is our Lord and Savior and always will be. He even created this earth under Heavenly Father's direction.

We use the KJV...(but that is not what you are quoting from...)and I know about testing spirits. : )

Let me look into what you are talking about. I appreciate your concern...

I will explain, too, how we look at the afterlife as far as our potential. I didn't even know about that until I was baptized. What drew me to the church was wanting to know and understand what happens when we die, the afterlife and as I searched for the truth I could not understand why there were so many churches interpreting the Bible so many different ways. I was told by one preacher that we were all dirty rags.... We are children of God. Anyway - it isn't quite that simple as far as your question... I will be back.

You are not in the US so you are not part of the movement that is trying to enact laws to restrict the freedom of certain groups of people.

I have said that there is nothing wrong with you speaking your opinion. In fact, I support you fully in your right to speak freely. You can share Christ with anyone you like and I have no objection to that even if I disagree with you. What I object to is those that want to force others to act Christian by using the legal system to do so.

However, if you decry anti-Christian behavior yet say that you have no problem with the teaching of non-Christian faiths, then it might seem a bit hypocritical. I don't think you have ever done that though.


I never said that it was "force" when you express your interpretation of "God's view from the Bible". In fact this is the third time I have said to you that I fully support your being able to do so.

What you or anyone else believes is classified as a right is irrelevant. What is preached about those behaviors is irrelevant in this discussion. Preaching is not legislating, this conversation is about trying to legislate behavior for one group because it is a sin while refusing to try and legislate behavior for another group even though that behavior is also a big sin.
Do you think it would be better in your country if the Christian churches could force people into pews or write laws like "no divorce unless there has been marital unfaithfulness"?

If you can turn the TV off, and not read the books or magazines, how is this lifestyle being "forced" on you? Is the presence of two guys walking hand in hand forcing that lifestyle on your children any more than the evangelist in Cathedral Square is forcing his religion on the little Muslim children walking by? You made the statement that you expressing your views in public isn't forcing those views on anyone...and I agree with that. How can you now say that those two guys are forcing their lifestyle on your children?


You have to seek out your Christianity? How many churches are in your town? When did they go into hiding? How much are black market Bibles in your town? When did your government make Christianity illegal?

You are not required to accept any of "liberal society's" allowable behavior. The same law that allows Playboy to publish their magazine allows the Gideons to place their Bibles in hotels. In fact, you can give Bibles or the Koran to children but not a Playboy, so the Bible and the Koran are allowed more freedom. No one has legislated that you have to buy and read a Playboy so that smut is not forced on you.

On a side note: Do you complain that the Koran is so freely available?


You have decided to live your life by your interpretation of the Bible. That's fine. You can even declare to me and everyone else that we should live our lives by your interpretation of the Bible. I have no problem with that. I would have a problem if you tried to change the laws of your country so that I must live my life by your interpretation of the Bible. The changing of the laws is the crux of my complaint in this thread, not your voicing of your beliefs or opinions.

Worshiping another god is outside of His will, yet you see no Christians trying to legislate that out of the country.


Is there something about homosexual behavior that automatically gets Christians thinking about bestiality and pedophilia? You realize that animals and children cannot give informed consent, don't you? So that type of behavior falls in the same category as rape.

I guess I'll see when you come up with an example or analogy that actually applies to the subject at hand.

Does this mean you believe we should have laws that restrict sin? Should we outlaw pornography? Adultery? Should we outlaw alcohol and close all the bars? If we do that shouldn't we also close down the temples to other gods?

Does He? When did he ever doubt the existence of God? When was He ever out of communication with God? That's two things He didn't experience.

From what I've found so far, there was some association with free masons but likely for the building of the temples. JS was not himself a mason. I did find something in my Encyclopedia of Joseph Smith's Teachings.

Heber C.Kimball said: "There is a similarity of priesthood in masonry. Brother Joseph (Smith) says Masonry was taken from priesthood, but has become degenerated." (Stanley B. Kimball, Heber C. Kimball: Mormon Patriarch and Pioneer, p.85, standardized.)

Words of Benjamin F. Johnson: He (Joseph Smith) told me Freemasonry, as at present, was the apostate endowments, as sectarian religion was the apostate religion. (Johnson, My Life's Review, p. 96).

I also found where Joseph allowed lodge meetings in his office. My assumption is that the association in the first place (why they were around) was for building purposes. Joseph Smith oversaw the building of 2 temples during his life - not an easy task then. They definitely utilized skilled artisans....

I didn't know about this, but was apparently right about all that with my statement some ways back about thinking they were trying to hold onto something precious that was lost through the ages. It was, however, lost as was the authority of the priestood and in the process, changed. I mentioned before, too, that my father-in-law associated with them...but he was not a member of the church. But I do believe all in all its original purpose was motivated by good (masons). I know nothing about the pagan rituals the movie portrays (The DaVinci Code) and so you know our temple ordinances are nothing like that.... Having said that I won't discuss temple ordinances in this forum. They are considered sacred and I don't want to have them held up for ridicule.

Linear: Does He? When did he ever doubt the existence of God? When was He ever out of communication with God? That's two things He didn't experience.
_________________________

Granted Christ had one up on us being intimately connected with the Father throughout His life - but there was a period when he was on the cross that he was left alone. And it was the hardest time of His life. His time in the Garden of Gethsemane was so difficult we can't comprehend.. The medical condition of bleeding through your pores means he was dealing with so much trauma (taking on all the sorrows and sins of the world) that it would've killed a meer human. That medical condition also caused his skin to become very delicate (the JAMA here did a study on it) and THEN he was flogged. Yes - others have been crucified and tortured in their lives. Jesus, though, did it willingly when He could've technically removed Himself from the situation and coupled with what He dealt with in the garden suffered more than we could even live through. He actually reached a point he prayed that the cup could be removed from Him...but He had to carry it all out to finish his work and then overcome death. Which He did do...willingly.

That story = the dude with his innards removed, sounds pretty strange to me too....

The Book of Mormon is not a mockery of the Bible or Christ. You would know that if you read it.

There is a lot of weird stuff out there and with all due respect its ludicrous to even be compared with that nonsense.

By their fruits ye shall know them. Check out OUR websites. There is nothing weird.

SoSick, I'm checking out that website. We do believe, of course, that Jesus was born in Bethlehem...of course. A footnote I found states concerning Alma 7: 10 - Bethlehem, where Jesus was born, was a small village some six miles from the city of Jerusalem. It was within the area referred to by the people of that day as "the land of Jerusalem" (see Hugh Nibley, An Approach to the Book of Mormon, 101-2).

In the Book of Mormon its my assumption its also put that way to make the point to the people Alma is speaking to that they are from where He is born...(the area). But we don't think he was born literally in Jerusalem. We believe the Bible. Some wording of the Bible has definitely been changed...even you are quoting from a modern interpretation to make it easier to read, but nothing we believe is contrary to the same basic tenets. I have an appt. in a couple of hours that I need to get ready for and then will address the other points made.

One question? Do you believe in baptism by immersion? There are lots of differences with that one. No point other than that even with the same Biblical Jesus other Christian religions also believe in, many of his teachings have been altered. (We do believe in baptism by immersion, by the way).

P.S. - I am not basing my beliefs about the Book of Mormon on the movie mentioned....just find it interesting.

BTW - in case anyone is reading my picture of the Mona Lisa into any belief system....it was simply the only picture I could find that I liked on the choices. Tried to download a personal one but couldn't figure out how to get it small enough. Has nothing to do with The Davinci Code in case anyone is wondering...there has been some talk about Freemasons...no relation.

I thought it was the moanin Lisa. Moanin because of the fibromyalgia.

hmmm.. well so, Jesus appears to all these indians after his resurrection... what year exactly was that? and then the white man arrives in great numbers 1400-1500 years later.. and gosh darn, the indians, not a single one of them have heard of Jesus yet. They build totem poles and initiate shamans and worship the spirits of wolves.

I guess Jesus didn't do a very good job with them. No one, not a single indian nor a single white man knew anything about Lehi's travels to the new world or Moroni until Joseph Smith informed them. sounds rather odd to me really.

hmmm... still to this day the mormon church has not been established among them to any degree that we can visibly notice. they do however have large numbers attending what the mormons call 'the apostate church'. I guess Jesus prophecy to them was not true, Jesus must be a false prophet.

Most people I know from full or mixed native american descent are baptists or nondenominational christians, not mormons. The indians, most sincerely, were not blond enough or fair enough to even be considered as members of the early mormon church.

To SoSick,

Allrighty - had my most indignant woman's exam and am good for a while...

Concerning Mary being a virgin. I have to tell you an experience... While we were visiting my sister-in-law and her family over the Christmas season for my daughter's wedding in Idaho, my husband brought up the absurd things that were going around about Mormons on the radio because of Mitt Romney running for president. Obviously then he was still in the running. It turns out my own SIL actually believes the tripe on that.... I argued vehemently on that point. I believe exactly what the Bible says. I realize that somehow Mary was literally impregnated by God himself - but as I said to her - when people are healed does God literally come down and do surgery on people to make that healing take place? No - He is a God - He has power over the elements....He can cause changes to take place. The same thing holds true in His causing Mary to become pregnant. I do not know how it happened....but Mary was a virgin - it did not take place in a sexual manner. I have actually been searching for evidence to prove that point myself and could not believe members of my church even think that, but apparently, some do. In saying that - my SIL is not nice. She has lied about me, she gossips, and is highly judgmental... That has been my experience with her. (By their fruits...) In all fairness, though, she did not grow up in the church and has issues. Their mother was not loving... But I do not think she is in harmony, right now, with the spirit even in the way she acts is my point. My husband and I came home and read the scriptures on this and - with the spirit - there is no way you can see it as otherwise. I finally today, thanks to you, found something written that validates what the spirit and scriptures testify to me. There is a book called Mormon Doctrine written by Bruce R. McConkie who was a beloved apostle - a member of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles. He states: "Modernistic teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false." So I can say with full confidence...no - that is NOT true about what our CHURCH believes or teaches(That God had sex with Mary). I cannot, however, speak for some of the members. If they do think that, though, they are wrong.

sure, of course. even Jesus was baptised by John. all the apostles were baptised, as a sign of repentence. Baptism was an hebrew ritual, of repentence, long before Jesus arrived on the scene.

But after the resurrection, the holy spirit baptised the apostles again,and others... Jesus baptises us with the holy spirit, breathes it into us, onto us, whereas Jesus was the only one the holy spirit came upon prior to that at his baptism. perhaps with the exception of John.

It's all in the bible. Every bit of it and then some.

But I cannot find any mention of Moroni, Alma, or Joseph Smith.

Wow SoSick - you're resorting to rudeness and sarcasm here now.

I already wrote in about some of what you're addressing. Jesus came to the people in America while He was still on the earth - after his resurrection but before his ascension. He was actually hanging around for about 40 some days before his last sighting.

The Indians were only part of the original peoples and were at one time the unrighteous ones. That switched back and forth...sometimes they were the bad ones and the Nephites the righteous - and sometimes the Lamanites (Indians) the good and the Nephites bad. After Christ was here they were all righteous and lived in peace for a period of about 300 years. Then the pride cycle began. When the white man appeared the people were in a state of apostasy. But I guarantee you there are people out there who have had the legend of the great white God handed down. I knew members in AK who's grandmother had come into the church because that story had been handed down in her family over the centuries.

And for your information the remnants of their peoples in South America and in the isles of the seas are joining the church in droves.....

If this is turning into a fight I am not going to play into it. I'm respectfully answering your questions. You've been rather snide with me off and on ever since I've been on this forum actually.

So you know, though, in believing that the complete fulness of the Gospel has been restored, that does not take away from the goodness of people of (almost) all different religions. If you know your history with the church, it makes sense that there was an apostasy. That is widely known. How do you account for all the different interpretations of scripture? How did we all of a sudden jump from the dark ages to the enlightenment and then to the truth? I know it is here....that is a good thing!!!!

Not sure where you're getting the "blonde enough" for the church thing either. I'm ready for whatever you want to ask. Just ask that you do it respectfully. I understand how it must feel in a way. I wasn't always a member.... Honestly some of them get on my nerves... But the teachings are true. It is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I can round up plenty of Biblical scripture to back up our claims, but obviously our complete teachings are based on other scripture as well along with revealed teachings and modern day revelation. God is speaking to the earth again, quite literally.

Gosh, that leaves me with some very troubling questions..

like... if Jesus could not save the indians how can i be sure he can save me?

no, no fights please i hate fights.

these really are all my very sincere questions, you can run away if you'd like.

what is rude and sarcastic? that i see things differently from you? I am an apostate remember? truly I am sorry i am not trying to be rude or sarcastic.

really, I am not. really really.

SoSick or anyone interested - this is a site which will, in a nutshell, tell you how we think of Christ. It is the testimony of our beloved and recently passed President of the church, Gordon B. Hinckley. (Yes - a prophet). If you want to read it please see the site.

http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/testimonies-of-him/articles/we-testify-of-jesus-christ

Snide huh?

actually I was here fixing dinner a bit ago and really just finished reading your last post above now...

snide hmmm.. well just goes to show i should not have bothered giving you 5 stars to cheer you up, my mistake.

you are pretty snide yourself. ok.

anyway forgive me for being apostate in thine eyes much less a speck of dirt.

and keep your kids off my porch too I ain't really interested in their apostate occult religion or being told by 20 year olds that I am not a Christian.

there that is snide. hope that's finished.


sadly, the prophecy was not given to the people of SA but to the people of NA, correct me if I am wrong but did Moroni venture back and forth or what? before the spaniards brought horses to america?

I dont see what is wrong with these questions, any 8 year old would ask them too.

How many are in a drove? more than all the Catholics and baptists in Mexico City and Rio de Janeiro?

they rememebred the story of 'the white god' who would come to enslave them... but they forgot the name of Jesus. yes it makes a lot of sense. non sense.

snide hmmmph.

Street Preacher Stumps Mormons, Critics With Common Question
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXR1PAnKyt8&feature=related


Street Preacher Exposes False Mormon Polygamist Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUHXF6j2UVc&feature=related

Joesph Smith did not test the spirits. he forgot to ask Moroni what's in a name.

Linear, to be honest. I see that it really makes no difference at all to defend the biblical word to you. It ultimately defends itself anyway. You have a bible. I think if anybody is having issues with certain hard truths Jesus gave, they would do well to pray about it, rather than incessantly argue back and forth with people who are only repeating/sharing that word (with quote and verse). Because in the end, God and His word are not privvy to the opinions of us (or the opinions of the day), nor are they fickle, nor subject to our "likes and dislikes".

One can prefer the legislation of the day (times) from flawed and sinful people over God's own unshakeable/unchangeable commandments if if they wish. They can also vote for people with disturbingly antichristian views (even so-called Christians can have them). One can "obey" "man" and "disobey" God if they wish. He gave us all a free will and we can either turn to Him or turn against Him. There is no middle ground with Christ. All of us will be judged according to our part we have played in all of this, however small. Every idle word will have to be accounted for. Sins and ommissions also.

Certainly, one will never be able to claim "ignorance". Trying hard to make Christian Fundamentalists, look like the "bad guys" or the "meanies" is nothing new, I've seen this pattern often and fully expect it. A little like how people try and portray Christ. We only have to look how they ultimately treated Him and where it finally lead. The fundamentals were spelled out clearly by Christ in the new testament, which is why so many hated Him then and do so to this day.

One either accepts Christ through His word, through the biblical prophets/witnesses via the Holy Spirit, or they don't. One can be swayed by the "laws" of the day, the "fashion" of the day, whether they fit in with God's or not, and decide "it must be ok, because it's been legislated" and basically to heck with God's fundamentals. Nobody can really claim "ignorance", because it is spelled out clearly, so much so (and even repeated and backed up), that one truly has no excuse.

My opinion actually does not come into this. But Christ's most definitely does come into it. They legalised abortion too, I guess that makes it right.... I wonder if anybody actually uses their brain as well as their heart when considering certain laws okaying certain practises and makes any moral considerations at all? Let alone considering God. Many people would love to legalise all kinds of things Linear. Here they wanted to legalise marijuanna...some feel this is wrong, others think "big deal". People are flawed and if you leave them to themselves, exclude God, you may find the legalisation of a few things morally disturbing (if you have any kind of godly conscience left). Hardy surprising.

In the end, arguing against these fundamentals is not my issue. God/Christ set them up Himself. It's criticising the bible itself and ultimately Christ. Christ said "By their fruits you shall know them" and to be honest, the fruits of some people's so-called Christianity (when you get to see the twisted watered down version of an antigospel spin that erupts out of them) your left with rotten fruit. Similar to Satan (who also believes in Christ). The demons believe and they tremble....Satan I'm sure would love a watered down/twisted version of the gospel of Christ, (marshmellow Christianity and a marshmellow Christ of their own making). The kind that excludes all the things we don't want to hear "e.g. consequences of serious sin and what those sins are (spelled out blatantly). And instead a sweet, soft, all inclusive, "you're ok, I'm ok, version preaching "peace love and joy" and excluding all the tough stuff. Jesus was not a marshmellow type of guy. He preached more on Hell than He did on Heaven, to make it very clear to everybody how very serious sin is and how much each of us need to treat sin as our greatest enemy. Thank goodness He gave us the remedy! His horrific suffering and ultimate death on the cross was not done for nothing. It was done for ALL the sins mentioned in the bible (and repeated), CLEARLY spelled out.

You can reply to this however you wish Linear, ultimately you can take it up with Christ, as He is the one that spelled these things out afterall. It is fruitless to attack the messengers. If you don't like the message, that is your problem and between you and Christ.

I have quoted chapter and verse and said more than enough for anybody to read and understand and as the bible says "they are without excuse" and I totally agree. You can of course continue to argue, work yourself up and give all kinds of little twists and turns, but ultimately it comes back to "what does God think" and the bible spells that out and makes no apologies for doing so.

Basically we must make a choice. Jesus Himself said "you are either for Me, or against Me". Pretending to be Christian, yet trying to twist and/or omit the words of Christ will hold no ground whatsoever. One maybe able to fool themselves and maybe even others for a time, but they won't fool Christ. And I am glad of it.

SoSick, Sorry what i believe offends you but as you said, its not personal. I don't think of you as an apostate SoSick. Or a speck of dirt. I don't think that way about anyone. This is not meant to be insulting. Or critical. If you want to know what I think, I have great respect for you and Bex and Russ and the folks on here AND LindaLou....I get a kick out of talking to all of you. Even RAZD! : ) I giggle and really do enjoy being on here. In fact I'm on here too much!!! Everyone on here is intelligent and, I believe, a seeker of the truth! And I've learned a lot on here! If anything what I believe elevates every one I come in contact with as much much more than even they believe themselves to be. But you and Bex have things very clear as far as I can see with regards to how you view the Bible and its interpretations as far as I also believe. I haven't disagreed with anything said so far. We really aren't different other than on a few points. Big points, granted - but not contradictory to your core beliefs. Please don't be offended at how we believe. I will try and explain it if you are ok with that. (How we see the apostasy). And our views on the afterlife. I really am not the judgmental type.
I am trying to answer your questions and am glad you're even asking. Knowing you and your personality as much as I can say that from being on this site, at least, you are kind of .....dry...??? on the way you approach things for lack of a better word. You're straightforward...honest. Please lets take into consideration our states of health here, too. I am about 1-2 days away from starting....and overwhelmed about some things I am frankly avoiding doing here at home. (Have a hard time focusing till i start).

Actually the prophecy was given to the entire continent, though. But the book is written for all peoples in that it contains the "plainness" of the Gospel. The original settlers from Lehi's family were believed to have settled in southern SA originally. The plates were finally buried in NY but the people pretty much moved around through the whole area at least in time. The group that came over from the Tower of Babel time were in NA if I remember right. My point was that the people from SA have more concentration of their population of blood albeit intermixed a lot. We have a Peruvian kid at school and he looks the eitome of a "Lamanite." Droves means - yes - the church is very very strong down there. I can get current figures on that if you really want to know. It is a world wide church. All members names are known to the church headquarters whether they be members in UT or Africa. The church is growing in Africa as well. Not too much in Europe right now for some reason, though, but it is slowly. Folks over there seem a little more grounded in tradition or something.

Anyway - sorry SoSick. The hmmms... as though rediculous are what got to me. However, i can understand that its a lot to swallow too. Maybe this forum isn't the best place to talk about it. One word, (or two..) though, about our missionaries. Males can go on missions when they are 19 (although some aren't quite ready at that point) but they literally pay for their own missions and dedicate 2 years (in case of males) of their lives during their prime - putting off school, working, marrying, DATING... When girls turn 21 should they decide to go out - they spend 18 months doing the same. They have to feel pretty strong about what they believe to do that. They aren't perfect...they deal with a lot of crap. They're young - but you have to admit that is pretty admirable. At the very least imagine the growth and discipline of completing dedicating your life to nothing but studying and teaching the Gospel! I would hope if you do encounter them you will at least treat them with kindness. My non-member aunt in St. Louis allowed them to give her a priesthood blessing when she was in the hospital. I called the mission office there. I couldn't go see her at that time and was climbing the walls. Anyway - she called them her little "Mormon Missionary Gentlemen." I honestly thought they were geeks at first (I was 15) dressed in their suits and then grew to put them on a pedestal. I will never forget the ones that taught me. Now I see the ones out as kids - they are young and could be my kids, but I have so much respect for them.

Please understand for right now that the main difference with our church is that we believe that Christ's original church has been restored with the actual authority of the Priesthood which had been lost. The priesthood will not be taken from the earth again...ever.

I should probably not turn this into a forum for discussing my church....but I'm not offended by your questions. They are good ones. I'm still happy to answer them. Sorry I got a little testy. Gotta go help my husband with some things.

I love you SoSick. I mean that sincerely. I do hope you will also search out some of our websites.

Love you too Jeanie, and feel for ya truly.

I've actually never discussed mormonism in depth with a mormon... I lived with one briefly in college, the girl that got angry when John Lennon was killed... never saw a woman (or man) consume that much heavy duty liquor in my life,,, she was a very bad influence on me.... rarely discussed her religion... I only stayed there for 6 months or so as a result... we were hardly the best of friends when I moved. and not because of religion. I rarely gave religion a thought back then.

but anyway, Jeanie, I am not sure how well you know history, or even the bible, not very well, either, it seems... but according to the bible the hebrews that were lost at sea were quite few in number, who was lost at sea were mostly phonecians. They, not the hebrews, were the great seafarers of ancient times. Not to say that no idigineous other people could have lived on these continents either, the eskimoes and like obviously being decended from some sort of Russian/siberian mix, some people in russia have that dark complexion too, almost the spitting image of the eskimoes... and of course there are plenty of Russian jews, or were anyway before Stalin... but to say to an indian, whose complexion was almost identical to that of a mediterranean person, we wait for the great 'white' god, it must be something else, the british, the french.. because mediterranean people, Hebrews, were no whiter than most indians, Jesus included.. I can go that way with that forver..

and in South America, which is a separate continent from NA btw, what the spaniards found were many many indigigenous peoples who practiced human sacrificial rites almost identical to the phonecians of ancient times, not the hebrews. there is a movie, Apocalypto, which is actually quite historically correct on those accounts... a very bloody movie Mel Gibson i think he is famous for bloody movies... but it's a good one... you might want to pick it up.

In NA people have found indians who practiced rituals quite similar to old hebrew rituals. But not many, again they found mostly many occult, phonecian and even egyptian types of beliefs. Ancestor worship, worship fo the dead, worship of anuimals etc.

The mormon temple is covered with occult symbolism. The book of mormon, perhaps you don't see it as a mockery of scripture But I most surely do. and quite seriously, nothing personal truly, but the mormon kids who go around knocking on doors, doors of baptists, protestants of all sorts, catholics... on sunday mmornings even, they beg an education but never listen because they talk too much. a ton of baloney. they don't know the bible and yet they attempt to preach it and run away whenever they are asked about the book of mormon, they have no answers at all. just rehearsed answers verbatim. it's very sad Jeanie.

You would be wise to watch some of the videos at youtube. and btw where exactly is the book of Hezekiah?

If my town hall were covered with the symbolism that covers a mormon temple I would move far far away. The writing is on the walls so to speak... written all over it... I know one thing for sure about how the devil works... yeah he lies a bit, sometimes a lot,, but he does also tell many truths, about himself even, he gives plenty of clues to his identity...... he knows that God is real, he knows that Jesus is real, the Jesus of the Bible not the book of mormon, so he gives you enough truth, enough clues to make sure that he is not accused of dragging you off against your will, because God does not allow that. there is a reason you do not see the occult symbolism Jeanie, there is a reason you do not see the inconsistencies of mormonism with the Bible, there is a reason you accept mormonism and it's Jesus instead of the Jesus of the Bible. The devil has not hid anything from you, he has simply added to things a bit, given you new promises (which I doubt he will keep).. and the decision to not believe the bible and to believe the book of mormon and Joseph's Smith's stories is yours and yours alone because the truth has never been hid from you either.

Street Preacher Stumps Mormons, Critics With Common Question
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXR1PAnKyt8&feature=related


Street Preacher Exposes False Mormon Polygamist Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUHXF6j2UVc&feature=related

I'm waiting for the great tawny God.

The indians of SA even built pyramids, just like the ancient egyptians.

My mom used to study with the little mormon boys every once in awhile. She would ask them why they needed Joseph Smith, he was not mentioned in the bible. They could never answer that question. They never came back either. A few months would go by and a new set would come along and she would ask them the same question and they could not answer it either. Never could figure out the need for Joseph Smith and to me why would you need him...the bible tells us what we need to know.
Rachel

Well - I guess if you had a roommate that drank and didn't live her religion we're all bad.

Even though you are showing me no respect whatsoever which I'm pretty sure I don't deserve, you have no idea what you are talking about regarding our church. You are way off....

Again- I would counsel YOU to read OUR material and not rely on YouTube. You have no idea what the symbolism on our temples represents, but I would not care to waste any more of my time answering your questions as you obviously do not have an open mind even to the point of trying to understand the truth about us.

I do not base my beliefs on archaelogical findings by the way. I accepted the Book of Mormon as scripture long before I even knew about any findings. And it came out before they WERE found. Just interesting that those findings happen to back it up.

I have to tell you - you are a very rude, negative, bitter person. I haven't said that out of politeness, but I've lost patience at this point. I thought you were more logical than what your responses to me have indicated. It's like talking to a wall. You are, apparently, simply a rather insensitive know it all. You are admittedly very knowledgable about all kinds of other religions but on ours, you do not have a clue. Do NOT tell me what we believe or what I know about history or the Bible either. This conversation is finished.

Actually there is Biblical scripture prophesying the need for a restoration or restitution of all things and, of course, the apostasy. If you haven't read that you really don't know your Bible (SoSick). And of Joseph himself. He was the instrument of the Lord in bringing that to pass in this dispensation of time. I'd be happy to gather those, but frankly at this point feel like I'm wasting my time in doing so. I think I've wasted a lot of time on here...too much. But even in answering SoSick's questions, even though they were more of a trap, I've learned.. so guess it wasn't a total loss. It's too bad when people aren't more open minded, though. Your loss.

No one has answered my questions, though. Can anyone answer what happens after this life? Really? Because the Christian world in general does NOT have all the answers. And they are here for the taking.

Anyway - I've been neglecting my house. My husband was gigging and teaching so much I was lonely so have enjoyed talking to you guys - sincerely. I'll probably check in here and there, but school starts next week which means I will start work soon, too, and I need to spend time with my family. You are good people. Even you SoSick..but you are negative. And I don't even mean that in referring to your attitude about my faith which you have insulted the hell out of revealing your ignorance actually. Your negativity will canker your soul, though. Life is good....better than you have any idea. Gotta go.... Ta Ta

:quagmire:

20 TRUTHS ABOUT MORMONISM

10. Blood Atonement Preached and Enforced

http://trialsofascension.net/mormon/blood.html


"Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved…and suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, 'shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?'
"All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers and sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant…

"I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance…if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the Devil…I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them…

"This is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it…if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. That is the way to love mankind." (Sermon by Brigham Young, delivered in the Mormon Tabernacle, February 8, 1857; printed in the Deseret News, February 18, 1857; also reprinted in the Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pp. 219-220)


"Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; under such circumstances. I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247)

-----
-----

"The most deadly sin among the people was adultery, and many men were killed in Utah for the crime. ...

... "I knew of many men being killed in Nauvoo…and I know of many a man who was quietly put out of the way by the orders of Joseph and his Apostles while the Church was there." (Ibid., p. 284)

"In Utah it has been the custom with the Priesthood to make eunuchs of such men as were obnoxious to the leaders. This was done for a double purpose: first, it gave a perfect revenge, and next, it left the poor victim a living example to others of the dangers of disobeying counsel and not living as ordered by the Priesthood.
"In Nauvoo it was the orders from Joseph Smith and his apostles to beat, wound and castrate all Gentiles that the police could take in the act of entering or leaving a Mormon household under circumstances that led to the belief that they had been there for immoral purposes…In Utah it was the favorite revenge of old, worn-out members of the Priesthood, who wanted young women sealed to them, and found that the girl preferred some handsome young man. The old priests generally got the girls, and many a young man was unsexed for refusing to give up his sweetheart at the request of an old and failing, but still sensual apostle or member of the Priesthood.


(Confessions of John D. Lee, Photo-reprint of 1877 edition, pp. 282-284)

SoSick - you are being such an [censored]... And what you are sending in is total bullshit. Really - you are exposing yourself to be a most childish and hateful person. Give it a rest. You are only hurting yourself.

[censored] is censored?

ok - butt

I had a nap and still need to go back to bed, thought I'd give you a gander at the "Mormon" Jesus.

By Elder Jeffrey R. Holland (Of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles)

Various crosscurrents of our times have brought increasing public attention to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Lord told the ancients this latter-day work would be “a marvellous work and a wonder,”1 and it is. But even as we invite one and all to examine closely the marvel of it, there is one thing we would not like anyone to wonder about—that is whether or not we are “Christians.”

By and large any controversy in this matter has swirled around two doctrinal issues—our view of the Godhead and our belief in the principle of continuing revelation leading to an open scriptural canon. In addressing this we do not need to be apologists for our faith, but we would like not to be misunderstood. So with a desire to increase understanding and unequivocally declare our Christianity, I speak today on the first of those two doctrinal issues just mentioned.

Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”2 We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true.

We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings.

Indeed no less a source than the stalwart Harper’s Bible Dictionary records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].”3

So any criticism that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hold the contemporary Christian view of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost is not a comment about our commitment to Christ but rather a recognition (accurate, I might add) that our view of the Godhead breaks with post–New Testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus Himself. Now, a word about that post–New Testament history might be helpful.

In the year a.d. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils)4 as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, imminent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time. In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible.

We agree with our critics on at least that point—that such a formulation for divinity is truly incomprehensible. With such a confusing definition of God being imposed upon the church, little wonder that a fourth-century monk cried out, “Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, … and I know not whom to adore or to address.”5 How are we to trust, love, worship, to say nothing of strive to be like, One who is incomprehensible and unknowable? What of Jesus’s prayer to His Father in Heaven that “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”?6

It is not our purpose to demean any person’s belief nor the doctrine of any religion. We extend to all the same respect for their doctrine that we are asking for ours. (That, too, is an article of our faith.) But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first Christian Saints, many of whom were eyewitnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?7

We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings, noting such unequivocal illustrations as the Savior’s great Intercessory Prayer just mentioned, His baptism at the hands of John, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, and the martyrdom of Stephen—to name just four.

With these New Testament sources and more8 ringing in our ears, it may be redundant to ask what Jesus meant when He said, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.”9 On another occasion He said, “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”10 Of His antagonists He said, “[They have] … seen and hated both me and my Father.”11 And there is, of course, that always deferential subordination to His Father that had Jesus say, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”12 “My father is greater than I.”13

To whom was Jesus pleading so fervently all those years, including in such anguished cries as “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”14 and “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me”?15 To acknowledge the scriptural evidence that otherwise perfectly united members of the Godhead are nevertheless separate and distinct beings is not to be guilty of polytheism; it is, rather, part of the great revelation Jesus came to deliver concerning the nature of divine beings. Perhaps the Apostle Paul said it best: “Christ Jesus … being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”16

A related reason The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is excluded from the Christian category by some is because we believe, as did the ancient prophets and apostles, in an embodied—but certainly glorified—God.17 To those who criticize this scripturally based belief, I ask at least rhetorically: If the idea of an embodied God is repugnant, why are the central doctrines and singularly most distinguishing characteristics of all Christianity the Incarnation, the Atonement, and the physical Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ? If having a body is not only not needed but not desirable by Deity, why did the Redeemer of mankind redeem His body, redeeming it from the grasp of death and the grave, guaranteeing it would never again be separated from His spirit in time or eternity?18 Any who dismiss the concept of an embodied God dismiss both the mortal and the resurrected Christ. No one claiming to be a true Christian will want to do that.

Now, to anyone within the sound of my voice who has wondered regarding our Christianity, I bear this witness. I testify that Jesus Christ is the literal, living Son of our literal, living God. This Jesus is our Savior and Redeemer who, under the guidance of the Father, was the Creator of heaven and earth and all things that in them are. I bear witness that He was born of a virgin mother, that in His lifetime He performed mighty miracles observed by legions of His disciples and by His enemies as well. I testify that He had power over death because He was divine but that He willingly subjected Himself to death for our sake because for a period of time He was also mortal. I declare that in His willing submission to death He took upon Himself the sins of the world, paying an infinite price for every sorrow and sickness, every heartache and unhappiness from Adam to the end of the world. In doing so He conquered both the grave physically and hell spiritually and set the human family free. I bear witness that He was literally resurrected from the tomb and, after ascending to His Father to complete the process of that Resurrection, He appeared, repeatedly, to hundreds of disciples in the Old World and in the New. I know He is the Holy One of Israel, the Messiah who will one day come again in final glory, to reign on earth as Lord of lords and King of kings. I know that there is no other name given under heaven whereby a man can be saved and that only by relying wholly upon His merits, mercy, and everlasting grace19 can we gain eternal life.

My additional testimony regarding this resplendent doctrine is that in preparation for His millennial latter-day reign, Jesus has already come, more than once, in embodied majestic glory. In the spring of 1820, a 14-year-old boy, confused by many of these very doctrines that still confuse much of Christendom, went into a grove of trees to pray. In answer to that earnest prayer offered at such a tender age, the Father and the Son appeared as embodied, glorified beings to the boy prophet Joseph Smith. That day marked the beginning of the return of the true, New Testament gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the restoration of other prophetic truths offered from Adam down to the present day.

I testify that my witness of these things is true and that the heavens are open to all who seek the same confirmation. Through the Holy Spirit of Truth, may we all know “the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom [He has] sent.”20 Then may we live Their teachings and be true Christians in deed, as well as in word, I pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.


Isaiah 29:14.


Articles of Faith 1:1.


Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099; emphasis added.


Constantinople, A.D. 381; Ephesus, A.D. 431; Chalcedon, A.D 451.


Quoted in Owen Chadwick, Western Asceticism (1958), 235.


John 17:3; emphasis added.


For a thorough discussion of this issue, see Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christian? 71–89; see also Robert Millet, Getting at the Truth (2004), 106–22.


See, for example, John 12:27–30; John 14:26; Romans 8:34; Hebrews 1:1–3.


John 5:19; see also John 14:10.


John 6:38.


John 15:24.


Matthew 19:17.


John 14:28.


Matthew 26:39.


Matthew 27:46.


Philippians 2:5–6.


See David L. Paulsen, “Early Christian Belief in a Corporeal Deity: Origen and Augustine as Reluctant Witnesses,” Harvard Theological Review, vol. 83, no. 2 (1990): 105–16; David L. Paulsen, “The Doctrine of Divine Embodiment: Restoration, Judeo-Christian, and Philosophical Perspectives,” BYU Studies, vol. 35, no. 4 (1996): 7–94; James L. Kugel, The God of Old: Inside the Lost World of the Bible (2003), xi–xii, 5–6, 104–6, 134–35; Clark Pinnock, Most Moved Mover: A Theology of God’s Openness (2001), 33–34.


See Romans 6:9; Alma 11:45.


See 1 Nephi 10:6; 2 Nephi 2:8; 31:19; Moroni 6:4; Joseph Smith Translation, Romans 3:24.


John 17:3.

Why do you think I am arguing against the Bible or Christ? I understand what the Bible says and I am not saying it says anything different than what you are. I am not even misconstruing that you telling me what the Bible says means you want to force people to obey Biblical laws.

What I am saying is that there are people here who want Biblical laws to be the law in the US...except where that law would get rid of non-Christian religions.

When did Christ say we should make laws to force non-believers to conform to our moral code? Forcing people to pretend to be Christian won't save them...it is a change of heart. Heart changes don't happen through force or legislation. They happen through love.

Do you think that you calling gays disgusting sodomites will make them want to turn to the Christ you represent when they are in a crisis? You are not required to agree or accept what they do....you are required to love them.

Oh please Jeanie,

Joseph Smith and his so-called 'translations' and just about every tenet of Mormonism, except of course it's links to masonry, have been proven fraudulent many years ago already.

The only ones who don't seem to know are mormons and their hateful little troupes of young missionaries standing on people's porches with their jaws gaping.

Go ahead and spend your life telling bible believing Christians that they are the apostates.

Butthead.

I don't think Bex ever called gays disgusting sodomites Linear.

why do you continue to keep trying to put words in other's people's mouths to make an invalid point?

why don't you go to Thailand and argue with buddhists about their anti-gay sentiments? Why is everything always the fault of christians in your eyes? Go argue with mormons. they are pretty much the only religion who desire a theocracy in america. And unfortunately for you, even though they try to call themselves Christians their beliefs are not Christian.

You are arguing with the wrong people. Maybe that's the reason for your frustration.

If Christians, or anyone else, don't want to support gay lifestyles that really is their own business.

Maybe gays should have more children and then theirs wouldn't be a minority opinion and they could get more seats in congress to influence the legislatures.

That was a question regarding the tactics of certain Christians in my country and was not meant to imply that Bex was the one actually doing that. My apologies to Bex.

What are their anti-gay sentiments? I didn't think they were trying to restrict the freedoms of gays in the US.

I did not know that Mormons were trying to set up a theocracy in the US. Could you point out what parts of their doctrine require this. Was there a recent publication from their apostles that states this? Where are you getting your information? I am quite interested in finding out more.

You mean that the Evangelical Christians don't want to outlaw homosexuality?

But they apparently want to support the Buddhist, Hindu, and Muslim lifestyles and teachings since they are not trying to restrict any of them.


There you go with the "majority rules!" thing again. If that were so, then the other religions would be gone. Fortunately, we have a Constitution that prevents the majority from taking away the freedoms of the minority.

I guess that Mormons won't be turning to you or your Jesus when they are in a crisis. At least Jeanie won't. Thanks for doing your part to win people over to the Lord.

What kind of hateful things did the Mormon missionaries say to you before they rode off on their bicycles? Were they similar to the things that auto mechanic said in the video you presented. I'm sure Christ was proud of him.

WW(your)JD: Apparently, belittle people for not knowing something.

Ha, as if mormons ever would have turned to a bible believing Christain for help anyway.

They think we are heathens and have doctrines to kill us not save us doyhead.

WWJD? Go read the bible and see what he said to people who twisted the word of God.

You serpents you vipers...

Go try living among them and see what kind of reception you get.

Are you suggesting mormons don't know the bible, Linear?

Oh wait, I'm sorry, a bit slow on the goods here...
now I get it.. you just need to be able to continue to accuse Christians of something while overlooking the fact that you are blaming the wrong people for the wrong things 99.9% of the time and never taking responsibilty for anything yourself either.

ok now I get it.

sorry, I forgot to play the game.

What's the name of your game anyway Linear, is it some form of Twister?

why don't you move your focus from christians to some other group once in a while? Is it because in your heart you believe that America IS predominantly a Christian nation?

Do some research about Brigham Young and his well known doctrines of blood atonement and ideas of the mormon kingdom on earth.

you'll never get the real truth form mormons, but you will get it from ex-mormons. Mormons will tell you these things are too 'sacred' to discuss.

Other things they don't like to discuss while standing on your porch are their rituals for marrying the dead to themselves. it's why they are so interested in your genealogy.

of course you could just ask Jeanie but she has probably taken an oath not to discuss it.

I already know it is predominantly a Christian nation.

What in your post even makes an attempt to address the issues I brought up?
Do you think that pretending I am against all Christians and Christ Himself, in any way changes the fact that SOME Christians in the US are using their influence to oppress a minority group because they are "sinning", yet they refuse to use the same influence against another group that is sinning as much or more?

You say I am blaming the wrong people but fail to support that. Who should I be blaming...Mormons? Buddhists? Can you provide links to the Buddhist lobbying groups that are trying to prevent same-sex marriage or make homosexuality a crime?

The June 2008 Family News from Dr James Dobson states that Christian businessmen should refuse service to homosexuals if they have a "sincerely held religious belief that homosexuality is wrong". I have never seen Dr. Dobson make that kind of statement for businessmen that have a "sincerely held religious belief that Buddhism is wrong". Why not?

Why do I, or anyone else for that matter, need to readdress the same things over and over for you everyday Linear? Are you unhappy with the answers you got yesterday? I haven't got any new ones for you today.

The only reason you even to need point out what you feel is 'oppression' against some minority group or another is that that very same minority group or another is trying to oppress christians (and others) who refuse to give in and be oppressed by the values of a minority within society.

Really, my take on your situation Linear, is that the spirit of anti-christ in you simply needs to be fed daily. And uses whatever means it's able to get you to feed it.

as long as you are railing against Christians, on any issue it doesn't matter just make something up, it is how you started this thread to begin with as usual.. you have done it elsewhere too.. your anti-christ spirt is happy.

Ther isn't much of an anti-buddha spirit in the world simply because buddha poses no threat to your dominion of darkness.

you are just a puppet.

The Dalai Lama has stated that he thinks that gay marriage is wrong, and he is considered the leader of all Tibetan Buddhists.

He didn't do much protesting about it though...you know, too busy trying to save his own people and his land from the chinese genocide that his been going on in Tibet.

You didn't have any yesterday that actually addressed the points I made. That is unless you feel that a criticism of the actions of any Christian group is a criticism of all Christians. I can't help it if you feel that way, but that was not my intent.


Reading my mind again, I see. I thought witchcraft was frowned upon within the Christian church.

What laws have they tried to enact that would oppress you?

How are their minority values oppressing you any more than the minority values of the Hindu religion in our society? Please be specific.


Now I am harboring the anti-Christ. I didn't know you had the gift of discernment. Please, tell everyone what my real name is.

So Buddhists are part of the dominion of darkness. Strangely, you don't mind if our children are exposed to their lifestyle.



Discernment again? Maybe you can tell me what car I drive?

Exactly, we are required to love them, as Christ loves all of us and has asked us to do the same. Part of love is also correction/warning. Living in a sinful sexual relationship/lifestyle is not freedom it is captivity in sin, which was the reason Christ died and rose again for. To free us from sin, make us clean in the eyes of the Father with the redemptive blood of Christ.

Okaying someone's lifestyle, when it offends God and leads to the loss of a person's soul is not love. If Christ failed to warn and admonish us, what kind of love would that be, considering He knew the consequences of our sin? How about loving God? God said "if you love me, keep my commandments".

Speaking of commandments. You talk about biblical laws, as though they should really not be part of society laws. Let us not forget the "Ten commandments" and let us not forget that they have not been "invalidated". People seem to feel that as time goes on, somehow it cancels out God's eternal laws. It doesn't. Unless Christ instituted something else, which as far as the ten commandments go? He has not. And confirms them in the new testament. No generation is more "modern" than God. Though they claim that these things are "outdated" "old fashioned". When God is older than time and more modern than anybody we know. He and His laws are eternal and apply as much today as they did then.

These commands were not "Ten Suggestions", they were commandments. If that's not clear? I don't know what is. Now, that's not to say that everyone of us follows each of them perfectly everyday. Most of us have failed, which is why we require baptism (born again and renewed) and thereafter, ongoing help from God and forgiveness when we fall again. But we must continue to hold them up, because these laws are eternal and apply to each and every individual and nation. Whether they like it or not. Who is the ultimate ruler? Why should or WOULD any true Christian substitute man-made laws over God's?

For me as a Christian Linear, I am expected to be on the side of Christ and I am. That's what a Christian is, is it not? So I myself would vote against homosexual marriage, because I know that this sin is truly an abomination to God. He Himself has said so. Now, if I did nothing, or voted for it, I will answer severely. Because such a law being passed is an offense to Him, because it is not okay with Him, therefore why should it be ok with me? It also tells children that this is normal, this is "ok" and good enough for these people to marry eachother. It does, in a sense, make a bit of a mockery of what marriage was originally intended for. I believe that Britney Spears herself has also made a mockery of it (personally). Many people do mock marriage Linear, it's not just the sin of homosexuality. Some people think the whole thing is a joke and marry eachother out of lust, and then wake up later and decide "I don't want to be with this person".

Giving homosexuality the ring of married acceptance is wrong in God's eyes, because the sin of homosexuality is wrong. And those who claim to believe in Him should feel the same way. Now, if America is prodominately Christian, then we should not be surprised that this law will have a few problems getting passed. If it wasn't, I'd wonder what on earth these "Christians' were doing? Those pro homosexual can vote FOR it and those against this sin and against marriage being mocked in such a manner, can vote against it. Is that not our right? We have freedom to vote or protest right? This is a battle Linear of the spirit, rather than the flesh and if one believes in their heart this is wrong, is obligated to act accordingly.

Since the US was founded on Christianity, and has many Christians living there, this is how it should be. I cannot figure out why homosexuals think they should have marriage rights, when the origin the institute in marriage comes from God and it's even more strange in a country founded on Christianity that they should consider such a thing...if they wish to sign up a personal agreement with eachother, nobody can stop them in doing that. Nobody can stop them marrying in areas that have made this practise legal either. Why though should Christians allow it if they have the right to protest against it with God on their side?

Personally I would not like to face Christ Himself and state "well I know that it was an offense to you, but...well...they have rights too you know and why should we comply with your laws"? Um, Linear, since I believe that Christ is the king of kings and Lord of Lords, and the Creator, He not only owns us, He owns the world....and that includes the ultimate law of the land. Yes, with free will many will disobey Him, but I personally would have problems with any law being passed that is in defiance of the law maker Himself.

I find certain things a bit difficult also to be honest. But God knows better than we do and I usually find that the things that happen in my life are often for my own good, though at the time, I don't see it that way. I've shaken my first at Him a few times too. But in the end, I see the journey I am on and the difficulties that come to shape me as I near the time of my death. Whether I like them or not, is of no consequence. Because ultimately it's about the afterlife and where we are going to end up.

Nobody said that obeying God and enduring testing was going to be easy, but to do so, even when it may cause us some pain? The reward will be great. Consider the things Christ endured and gave up for the sake of the Kingdom and for our sake? We are asked to do likewise.

Thank you Sosick for pointing out that I did not refer to these people as "disgusting sodomites" and apology accepted Linear. But if you really want to find out who has used harsher language on those that practise this sin? Read the bible. God Himself has used VERY harsh terms against sins of sexuality and does not mince words. I've been mild in comparison. That's how angry He is with many of us. And rightly so. The sins of Sodom and Gommorrah are being repeated today, and all across the world (rather than concentrated in two cities). The difference is, there are also many people who are trying to live good lives, which I believe is staying back the angry hand of God. I believe He would have acted a long time ago otherwise. Though it does warn us in the bible that this time is most certainly coming, because the world is groaning under the weight of sin and is in desperate need of God's renewal.

Thank you for apologizing SS.

I know you well enough to know that your style is to-the-point and it can certainly seem harsh, but you are just defending what you believe.

This is a good topic, something I know quite a bit about because I've studied Mormonism and known a lot of Mormons, so let's not let anger—or the perception of it—get in the way.

Hello Bex and those who have posted regarding 'What a true Christian is'. Can we please use the Word of God, and see what He has to say?
Jesus tells us in Matthew Chapter 7 of 'The Narrow and Wide Gates to Heaven'... Vs. 13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Question? How will one recognize a Christian? Jesus says in Matt. 7:15+ "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheeps's clothes, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit, you will recognize them. ..17+)Likewise every good tree bears good fruit (for His Kingdom),but a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21)Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
What are the 'fruit(s)' of righteous/unrighteous people?
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, not adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the the kingdom of God."
"Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
Yes, I agree in that we have the 10 Commandments as our 'guide' (if you will) to living out the Christian life. However, NOBODY could, or can keep the 10 Commandments. Therefore we are not under the Law, per se', but under His grace. Please read Romans Chapter 3 where Apostle Paul explains what the purpose of the Law is: Vs. 19)" Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law,so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. vs.21) But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested being witness by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe for there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. vs 24) being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus: vs 28) For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. vs 31) Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Ephesians 2:8-10) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."
Yes, Jesus said, "This is my commandment that you love one another."
Just as Jesus, I believe we are to love the sinner, but hate the sin. We must be 'born again to see the Kingdom of God,' Jesus also said in John 3:3.
So we see that it takes 'faith, new birth, love, following Christ's footsteps, and when we fall (which we all do/will), we claim 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Blessings and May our Sovereign Lord lead us all on His path , Abishag <>< May God bless and forgive America!

Hi Abishag, thank you for this. Nobody can say it or explain it better than God Himself. I have used some quote and verse, but did not fully back every statement made as you have! I'm not proud of my "quote and verse" weaknesses.

All things in this life, if we are believers in God, should be tested against His word (running it past Him basically). Afterall, is He not the maker of all things? Therefore all things are subject to Him.

God bless you and thanks again.

Blessings to Bex and everyone 'trying' , as best as we humans possibly can, to 'walk as Jesus, Himself walked'.

You are absolutely right, Bex! I agree 100%, in that we should 'test everything against the Word of God." Yes, all things are subject to Him, the creator of the entire universe!

We can't even fathom the awesomeness of our Great God! For those who truly are interested in understanding our Lord, I recommend reading the book of 'JOB'. That book should greatly humble each one of us.

The answers that God Himself, the Creator of the Universe, gave to Job are astounding! We read "God Challenges Job" in Chapters 38-41. WOW! I must remind myself of these verses often!

The big question? "When did God answer Job's plea?" Please read Chapter 42 verse 10 "When Job prayed for his friends... God gave Job twice as much as he had before." WHOA!

Amazing, isn't it Bex, that this forum was intended for 'Politics/political' discussions, and the Lord is using it for His glory, once again?

You are most kind and helpful, Bex! Thank you for your insight into Scripture. We are all down here on this little planet earth, to "Glorify God"....it's not about us, it's all about HIM!
You have a beautiful heart, Bex! Keep shining in this dark world for Jesus! We are to be His 'salt and light', to a dying world. You are doing a marvelous job.
May God's grace, mercy, and love be with you!
Sincerely we press on, in Jesus!
One of His Followers, Abishag <><

Why you are mighty welcome Russ, for my apology.

apology for what, I am not sure but I'm always glad to offer one.

I didn't realize my purpose here was to be a pleaser of men, or women.

I don't think I am able to come to that realization any time soon either.

The inabilty of men pleasers to stand firmly in the word of God that you so often enjoy touting, is the root of all the problems and situations you complain of. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And I do find it more than just a little bit odd you say that to me but no one else, as though I have not been offended. let me tell ya, I have indeed. Cursed at repeatedly accused of things I have not done, repeatedly, and I am always asked for an apology.

No, Russ, no apology truly necessary even if I offer one. It's clear where your allegiences lie.

Please delete the photos of mine that I tried to delete and you archived and reposted without my permission. This is copyrighted material, my copyright, not yours. I am asking you publicly this time, hoping it does not go in one ear and out the other. I'm glad you like the photos Russ, but I really don;t want them here all year or for 5 years if you don't mind. i am truly sorry you don't understand. It has nothing to do with you, yet... please delete my photos from your archive!! Is this like yahoo or something, once someone posts a photo you are going to claim you own it? A lot of that is published material Russ, my copyright not yours or anyone elses, remove it as soon as you can please. It should not take more than 5 minutes I have no idea why I asked you nicely 4-5 weeks ago about it and the photos are still there.

and I have ever gotten an apology?... noooo. why is that Russ, your disdain for Christians as a whole? Those deceived church going retards? the faith of those Christian retards is worth so much more than your fear mongering. a true retard with an IQ of 65 who has true faith in God is better off than you are with all you claim to know.

Exactly how do you expect people to know other people's beliefs when they know nothing about them Russ? ESP? Anyone complaining about things I post should have first made me aware that certain information and viewpoints offended them. Poeple who are offended by certain veiwpoints should not bait others with requests for questions and viewpoints.. and it should be obvious that if they cry offense when it turns out they get offended by the viewpoints they themselves requested, they have a Problem. capital P.

Galatians 1:10 -
For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Let me make myself perfectly clear if that isn't clear up above with everything else stuck in there with it, Russ...

I am not offended by other people whose viewpoints conflict with mine. I do find the cursing somewhat offensive. But it's really neither here nor there.

But, what actually offends me Russ, is your constant quoting of scripture and your constant lack of adherence to it whilst you continually side with those who oppose scripture when their egos are dented, assuage them, and instead chastise Christians who are only doing as the scripture you quote has directed them.

It is extremely offensive Russ and I question your motives in it.

SoSick, I would calm down...

Just so you know - I've been a member of this church since 1975 and think I know a little better what we believe. Unrepentant adulterers would, in time, be excommunicated, but we don't believe in murder.... : ) There has been a lot of information twisted and misconstrued by enemies to the church - some who have been excommunicated. There is a lot of anti-Mormon false stuff out there. Its simply not true. Seriously - the only way to get correct information is through us. Our beliefs are completely in harmony with pretty much all you've stated other than that I guess you could say what we believe expounds on things a little more. Nothing contradicts the Bible. Ezekial 37: 15-17 refers to the joining of the stick of Judah (Bible) and the stick of Joseph (Book of Mormon). We use them together. We have more detail concerning the creation, the prieshtood, "heaven" and hell issues, and believe in modern day revelation. If you actually read any of the quotes I've sent in.... While we do believe that there is a restored church on the earth it doesn't mean we think you're all apostates. Apostates are people within the church who turn against it - who know better. No - we believe there is more....but you are a good person. All this contention isn't good for you or anyone else, though. I'm not the enemy and generally have agreed with almost everything you've said in here - though I cannot agree with the manner with which you present it... (And you're definitely all wet about us...(Mormons). Our Jesus is the same exact one you believe in. We just happen to believe He is speaking to us again...and has a church on the earth which HE runs through revelation to those who hold the keys and authority to receive that revelation. Calm down...

The issue is not your beliefs Jeanie.

the issue is Russ' own redundant lamentations that the church has backslidden and become a feely good organization all over. Yet he fails to notice that he himself caves into every demand against Christians who speak their minds and hold to scripture.

One big ball of confusion.

SS, I originally said thank you for apologizing because I honestly thought you had apologized. Now that I have read the thread more carefully, I see that you didn't, and that's OK. I never meant to say that you HAD too.

...And now this. It seems that you have been really offended and have been holding some things in. I guess this is the way we get to find out.





I already sent you a message days ago asking what post number the pics are in. I'll be happy to delete them but you never answered me so I don't know what you're taking about.


Also, you're way off base here. I guess I'll chalk it up to mercury toxicity, but you are just really acting in a dishonorable way.

I have told you in detail why I am disappointed with and sad about the condition of the modern church.

Do you have a problem with that?

You are misrepresenting me in a big way sister.

I also would remind you that—as a Christian—we are supposed to be respectful to people. Is there a Biblical basis for tirades? Will you witness to the air after you have pushed everyone away?

Your conduct is a reflection of who you are, regardless of what others have said to you or how someone has offended you. Likewise, their conduct is a reflection on them, not you.

Also, as I've told people before, I am very open to letting people speak freely, but I draw the line on slander, and you have said things in your previous posts that are really misrepresenting me.




I'm really shocked at what you're saying. What scripture exactly to you think I'm violating? Who have I continually sided with?

...And questioning my motives? Motives for what?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

What exactly do you think my motives are?

You are really misjudging me and I believe you are way off base. You obviously don't know anything about me.

Nevertheless, if you have an accusation, bring it on.

Also remember that while your accusing me of being some kind of heathen (for reasons I cannot imagine), I would remind you that the scripture tells us not to be easily offended.




First off, I don't use that word SS.

Secondly, I didn't know you wanted an apology. I don't even know why?

Third, If you want me to boldly stand up and point out people's faults, and if you so aptly do it with others (as we have all witnessed you do), then why are you so offended when I tell you what disappoints me about the current state of the Christian church?

Um, doesn't that seem a little, um... hypocritical?

By your own logic, you want me to do it to other people, but if my view of the modern church rubs you the wrong way, then, well, I just better keep my mouth shut.

Is it time for a little self examination, perhaps?


Finally, what ever happened to that scripture about going to someone privately first if they have offended you?

Remember? Privately first. With a mediator second. To the congregation third.

Instead you post on a public forum something that offended you in our private messages. Amazingly, this is the first time I've heard about it offending you.


You are way off base here...and on several fronts.

While your insights into scripture are interesting, they don't really address the issue of this thread. The issue is why do certain groups of Christians stand against and try to make laws against some people who are "sinning" but do nothing against another group that is trying to lead their children away from Christ?

http://herballure.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=24517#Post24517

There may be others I haven't checked every place I ever posted a photo Russ but if you archived these photos you probaly archived the others. The only person who could have reposted material into my posts is you. I never saw a pm asking about which thread they were in, sorry.



When a lot of the things you say are not true Russ, yes I have a problem with it. By your own admission you do not attend church or fellowship with Christians anywhere, yet you make blanket stements that condemn the churches, as an outsider looking in. You do not know these people, yet you judge them. You belittle them for having faith while you spend your time running in circles fear mongering.




not really Russ.


Not really Russ. Seems to me you draw the line on people slandering you, or your pecerption that someone is slandering you, but you don't give a hoot when others are slandered. You have allowed people to use some of the most vile language with me personally Russ, for no reason other than the fact That I had simply mentioned the name Jesus here and there (originally) or presnted an opinion that opposed other religions or non-religious beliefs. Exactly when have you drawn the line when people have slandered me Russ? never Russ. You take a middle ground that says, Sos, don't say things that irritate people, and to others you will say SoS has some strong views. In other words Russ,. when people curse at me or accuse me of whatever, it's always my fault.

Fine it's always my fault. That is where you have repeatedly drawn the line Russ. Irregardless of the fact that all I have ever usually done is mention the name of Jesus or proclaim my faith, or presented facts that others couldn't argue with and this they have resorted to slander instead.


I have no idea what your motives are. But they defintely exist.


Russ, at the point you require me to apologoze to others without ever requiring anyone to apologize to me, I'd say that there is a perception problem.



I never said I wanted you to boldy stand up and point out people's faults. I am not offended when you tell me you are disappointed with the church. In that regard, what is offensive is your lack of real world contact with the people you are discussing and condemning. Concerning your views of the church, they are rather full of worldly anti-church propoganda... and contain many non-truths. Standing on the outside looking in is not a place from which to form an opinion Russ. I do hope the items I pointed out to you in regard to problems within the church, from an insider, are helpful to you.




I never said that either Russ and it's interesting that you perceive my statements that way. I do know how you feel. What I said is that when you ask me to apologize to someone for presenting facts about certain things , which facts might well offend them when made public and are often repulsive to many as well, you are in essence telling me, and others, to shut up. Perhaps it is a time for a bit of self examination




Excuse me Russ, but that scripture is applied within the church (eg; mediator/congregation), which you, by your own admission, are not a member of.

and that is a perfect example of the various misuses of scripture that you attempt that are, in actually, rather offensive. You yourself are neither the mediator, nor the congregation, Russ. And this webboard is not the church.

sorry, but these 2 sentences dropped off my cut/paste and should end the above post --\\


I have presented these views at that point here publicly because in all sincerity Russ, the forum members do represent those groups better than you yourself.

and because you took the liberty to thank me for apologizing publicly, again holding me to one rule and yourself, and others of your choosing, to another, touting scripture as you go...

--

I am not angry Russ, I am again sorry that you view this all as a tirade. Disgusted is a more apt definition of how I actually feel.

[/victim mentality]

at the point Russ, where you offer a public apology for me, in whatever vague way.. indicating that I should be sorry and repent for something I have said or views that I have presented, you are essentially saying that my views and the information I have presented is in error.

I am sorry Jeanie was offended by my questions and the information I presented. However I am not sorry and neither shall I make any appearances of repenting for my views or the information I have presnted in this regard.

Let Russ himself be sorry and apologize for himself for surely I am not sorry.

Glad even for the opportunity, thank you Jeanie.

Linear, there is no law to stop people from practising a homosexual lifestyle. God has condemned it yes, but there is no society law against it. Christians (true Christians) cannot stop anybody from practising homosexuality (fornication/adultery included), as there is no "law" against it, people practise these sins "freely" unfortunately, even though they are a great offense to God Himself. Now it's gone further and it's come to the institute of "marriage". Homosexuals seek to "legitimise" their relationship in a manner that offends the very foundation and institute of marriage, because it's an affront to God. It could never legitimise their lifestyle/relationship anyway in God's eyes (we know that from scripture). And any such law should be (by true Christians at least) voted against.

You also cannot stop anybody from practising their own personal faith either. On the other side of the coin, there have been many (still are) of Christians persecuted and killed for practising their faith. Anybody in certain countries that converts to Christ can be in danger of their lives. Christians do not threaten others with the same if they practise a faith that differs from our own.

We await the time Christ comes back to reign/rule and all arguments will be put to rest. In the meantime, we pray and the gospel is being preached to all nations. As I type this, more people are being won over to Christ. Yes, there are MANY religions, but only one true God. You'd also be surprised at some of the parallels between faiths on God the Father (Creator). Unfortunately the person of God is debated between religions heavily. It is about winning souls for Christ, but you cannot win them over by persecuting/killing. It simply doesn't work (and I'm glad of it). Because God Himself gave us a free will and knowledge to seek Him.....the Holy Spirit in the end is the one who truly converts.

Of course, if a law is to be instituted that goes against the teachings of Christ, we must continue to vote against it regardless. Even if we lose, at least we stood up for what we believed in. But no, there is no law that prevents a person practising their own personal religion, as there is no society law against fornication/adultery/homosexuality.

Satan is the "prince of this world", but thankfully not for long. He is NOT the ultimate ruler, but for now it seems he rules and reigns and each one of us undergoes a continual battle daily to remain faithful to God in a world that, for the most part, does not do so. We live in the world, not in Heaven and cannot expect a Heavenly rule (as yet).

I may not have answered your question perfectly Linear, and some of why things are allowed confuses me also. But I'm more than aware we live in a sinful society and one in which tends to oppose the commandments of God, rather than upholds them. You only have to turn on your TV to figure that out!

It's a battle between what the WORLD thinks is right and wrong, and what God has told us!

Does the "unfortunately" in your statement mean you believe there should be laws against homosexuality, fornication, adultery, erotic literature and the like?


Actually, the laws in the US (I don't know about NZ) didn't really say that it had to be between one man and one woman. It had to be changed in many states to read that way after gays asked to be married and filed lawsuits when refused. Some states actually were going to issue certificates of marriage to same sex couples. So, the Defense of Marriage Act was passed by Congress, the sole purpose of which was to make it so states didn't have to recognize marriages of same-sex couples from other states.

Not in the US. However, no Christian group is even trying to, nor expressing concern that we should place limits on non-Christian religions.

Not in the US or NZ for that matter.

Not lately, but there are many religions that are all but extinct since being persecuted by Christians. Mormons, although they consider themselves Christians, were persecuted into moving out west after Joseph Smith was arrested and killed by his captors.


You say you must stand against a law that goes against the teachings of Christ, but you don't actually do that. Didn't Christ say that no one can come to the Father except through Him? Yet you don't stand or vote to remove those laws that allow teaching that Christ is not the Way or the Word. By "you" in the previous sentences I meant the Christian church that lobbys for laws against erotic literature and homosexuality.

God says to worship only Him. Maybe that is not important.

SoSick, don't pull Russ into this. You seem to feel a need to continually fight with someone... And you also seem to not be able to take what you yourself dish out when it is returned back. You got very defensive about my belief that the world has (is overall) in a state of apostasy. When offered our actual viewpoint you brushed it aside and found all the anti-Mormon rhetoric that you could muster which are blatant lies. And yes - I got ticked - royally - at one point and stated you were being a "butt" and that it was BS. (And I can find a post you stated that same word...) I have not shown you the disrespect you have me. And certainly don't deserve it. Who is doing the judging? You're the one pointing fingers at everyone else insulting us. I would honestly, if I were you, get some distance. Your BP has got to be up or something. Your sarcasm is almost funny...you definitely have some wit, but it is also hurtful. I sincerely hope you feel better. Take some valerian root or something. You are the one attacking - not the other way around.

Hello Everyone!
Let me make it perfectly clear, I quoted Scripture verses from the Holy Bible, New American Standard and King James Version. The reason? I was 'holding up the arms' of a fellow-member of this forum in her relating what 'a true Christian is'....and who will or will not enter the Kingdom of God (all scriptually based). She was trying to help another member, who disputed some Biblically based things she had posted...which turned out to be correct!

I do not intend to offend any Denomination of faith. We will all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, then we shall see how 'He separates the Sheep from the Goats'.

Let's stop this Denominational-feud, if you will. It will lead to no place....we all think our way is right! Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."
I have it together, LinearAq ....Do you? Come on, stop with the judgmental attitudes here. Russ is trying to help each and every one of us. He doesn't need our bickering back and forth on this website.
I think we ALL OWE HIM AN APOLOGY! I'm sorry, Russ, for drifting away from the Topic of this particular forum (Politics).
I stand on my beliefs! I do not try to discourage others. That is Christ Jesus' job. Thank you, Russ, for putting up with all of us 'fallen humans' "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". Blessings to you and your kindnesses to us. God bless, Abishag <>< :rainbow:

Thanks Abishag for your sound post once again and also for your earlier very kind comments and backing that I found very uplifting and supportive.

You will note (and have noted), that even with quote and verse backing up statements, some people will never cease to argue for one reason or another. It wouldn't matter what was done or said I assure you. They'd be complaints and nit picking in any possible area they could find. Real or imagined (confused or misrepresented), whichever serves the purpose. I don't believe such people really want answers, I think they are looking to confirm themselves in ongoing criticism of other Christians and will never be satisifed with any answer given. In fact, in my experience, they usually wear you out and seek to have the last word, and in the end, often do. Feeding them quote and verse, even when requested, such people will still not be satiated. I brought up quote and verse because other aspects were brought into this argument. I'm finding now, that the person in question wishes to change gears a little and overlook that and get back to the "why have christians done this" or "why have Christians not done that" etc etc etc and on it goes. Believe me, you won't find such people admitting the many wonderful things Christians have done throughout the ages and continue to do to this day (charity organisations etc). Notice that this is ignored and rather fault finding is preferred at all costs? I cannot help that. Again, if such individuals feel the need to do this, they may find it more beneficial to work on themselves first.

God's word speaks volumes and perhaps such people would do well to ask Him and pray about any concerns and spend more time in His word, rather than sitting on here picking? I repeat, either one falls in line with the flawed view of the world, or they fall in line with God's word and live their own personal lives accordingly. Failures are expected, since we're human.

God said "if you love me, keep my commandments". Can any of us say we're doing this? I've failed, and there is always room for improvement. That's pretty much all I feel the need to say on the matter, since nobody says it better than God anyway. Those who find fault, can take it up with Him.

God bless.

Excuse me Jeanie, but I did not pull Russ into this. I have never once pm'd Russ complaining about the information posted or behavior of another member of this forum. Not that I have never been offended Jeanie, but I can take care of my own problems. Those I create, and even those I don't which others create for me.

To the best of my knowledge, in this instance, you pulled Russ into this.

Take your own advice please instead of just giving it to others.

And to Russ, as I did say already to you personally, I am sorry, for your sake. and I do truly mean it.

I actually am rarely sarcastic Jeanie. Though you may think I am being sarcastic, I'm not. I am simply not letting you push me around because you don't like my perspective. I'm simply being honest with you. I do not like being lied to. I do not like being treated like a dummy. I do not like being inappropriately used for a bad example of someone else's misgivings.

Find yourself a different scapegoat.

and don't talk about your religion in public if the details of it embarrass you. If you want to parade yourself and your church around as Christian, expect the same scrutiny we Christians give to all of our churches.

Ohhhh, ((( Smiles )))

I'm not really into politics that much as I think it will
all lead us to that day no matter who's elected..
It will end up as written about in the Bible..
The outcome..
And I think voteing is mostly to try to postpone..
Or change..
Whatever may come..
Or make it less worse anyway...
A person has a right to vote if they want to in this system..
However they may choose too..
Not getting into that..
But..
Was Jesus a Republician or Democrat??
He never declared he said his Kingdom was not a part of this
world.. This system..
All he talked about mostly was the Kingdom to come..
Thats what he told us to pray for to Our Father who is in Heaven.. Holy be thy name..
Holy be Your Name...
Your Kingdom come, Thy will be done..
On earth as it is in Heaven
But I was reading what Abishag wrote and..

Anyone who is serious about his religion should think it is the right one..
Otherwise, why should he/she be involved in it?
Christians are admonished:
" Make sure of all thing; hold fast to what is fine."
[ Thessalonians 5:21 ]

A person should make sure that his/hers beliefs can be supported by the Scriptures, for there is only one true faith.
Ephesians 4:5 confirms this, mentioning
" one Lord, one faith, one baptism."
Jesus did not agree with the modern, relaxed view that there are many roads, many religions, all leading to salvation.
Instead, he said: " Narrow is the gate and cramped is the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."

Matthew 7:14..
And Jesus talked about good fruits..
From their fuits you shall know them..
But Jesus also said ..
It will be the ( ones ) doing the will of My Father in Heaven..

And then Jesus goes on to say..
And then I will declare to them, I never knew you,
depart from Me , thoses working lawlessness!
Psalm( 6:8 )

But to start from Ps 1..
O Jehovah, do not rebuke me in Your anger, nor chasten me in the heat of Your fury, have mercy on me, O Jehovah for I am weak; heal me,
O Jehovah for my bones are troubled.
My soul is also greatly troubled - ,and You, O Jehovah until when?
O Jehovah, return, deliver my soul; save me for Your mercy's sake. For there is no memory of You in death; who shall give thanks to You in Sheol?
I am weary in my groaning; I shall make my bed swim in all the night; I melt my couch with my tears.
My eye is dim because of grief; it wastes away because of all my foes.

Depart from me, all you who work iniquity, for Jehovah has heard the voice of my weeping.
Jehovah has heard my plea; Jehovah will recieve my pray.
Let all my enemies be ashamed and greatly troubled; they shall turn back ashamed in a moment.

That is so deeply felt..
Isn't it..
Scripture is just so poetic...
Just adding to what Abishag posted..
Scripture is so deep...

You Take Care You All...
Lynn

Good Evening SoSick,
I truly hope you have calmed down. You may not mean to sound 'sarcastic', nor 'offensive',...but I must say, your posts come across very critical.

I want to tell you that I DO NOT GO to a church building. My reasons being illness. For you to 'point a finger' at Russ declaring that he does not attend church....may I remind you that 'The Church', is the BODY OF CHRIST..(meaning the people).

1 Corinthians Chapter 3 verse 9 tells us, "For we are God's fellow workers: you are God's field, God's building. The PEOPLE ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST. THE PEOPLE ARE THE CHURCH. Jesus' followers make up the Temple of the Holy Spirit.
(vs.16) "Do you not know that you are a Temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you."

The Lord Jesus lives inside the people. NOT INSIDE A BUILDING. Scripture says God does not dwell in a building made by hands. Search your heart, please, and see if the Lord would have you to apolgize to Russ. He truly was speaking on your behalf. You should be thankful to him.

You totally misunderstood a comment (post) Russ made a few days ago about 'your apologizing and he knows you to be a good person' (I am not typing verbatum)...however he was defending you, not critcizing you. You totally missed his point. The Lord looks on the heart. I do not know Russ, personally, but in my spirit I truly believe Russ is a Christian. I am a Christian. Lynn is a Christian, yet she cannot go to a church building because of her autism children.

Who are you to judge, SoSick? Please allow the Lord Jesus to be the Judge. Let's repent and 'first take the beam out of our own eye, before casting stones at other people.'
Thank you. Blessings, Abishag <><

i live in a multi cultural community with all sorts of religions going on. i frequently use the buses and so many times people are fighting and arguing on the bus about religion, whats true whats not, its pathetic, it brings about wars. There must be a creator, you dont need to go to church to pray, our creator made us so must be very clever so must know what we are thinking, what we are going through, if we try to do right. Im sure arguing about religion is not good, no one is going to get a medal and no-one really knows what lies ahead of us.

I have already apologized to Russ, Abishag, I do believe it is suffucient.

But you bring up a good point... God does not dwell in a building made by hands...

Nonetheless, the church is so-called for a reason and if it were not for the buildings and groups of people we know as Christians that attend those buildings to fellowship, chances are excellent you nor I nor even Russ would have even ever heard the word of God to begin with.

Credit where credit is due please.

You may see me as critical, that is your choice. But I wasn't raised up to bend with every wind that blows either.

But just because you have criticised me I won't throw any bullets back at you. unless you overdo it I suppose, as others have from time to time.

In your case I will turn the other cheek for the moment. Slap again if you'd like if it makes you happy I have no idea why you are getting involved in this.

I think you should all settle down really. It truly is a shame about the spirit of dissension that inhabits this webboard. One needs to ask from time to time, what fellowship does light have with darkness?

none, none at all. No matter how hard one tries to bend it or mold it to one's own purposes the word of God is always still true to itself.

and arguing about whos religion is the best divides us, im not just talking about this forum it is happening all over the world.

dissension and hostility, beware it does not overtake you.

I would rather be known as a sheep in wolves clothing than a wolf in sheep's clothing any day, considering the day and age especially.

I guess not many here should complain that the church or america has backslidden. It's pretty obvious we're mostly made up of mush.

TO: SoSick

I honestly don't have any idea what I've done that has brought on this type of reaction from you. I am still shocked at your behavior.

I will also say that you have crossed the line on slander because you are making vague accusations in public apparently about messages I sent you in private even after having it brought to your attention.

Also, I never reposted a single picture of yours.

If you want your pictures removed, you can follow the rules and give me the post numbers and identify the specific pictures that are yours.

DO NOT give me a link to a thread because I will not parse through hundreds of posts attempting to guess which pictures are yours.



First, if you have a problem with me, you should have told me in private.

Second, I don't condemn Churches. I am sad and disappointed at their lack of adherence to scripture. Read Revelation. I'm not an outsider. I know people who currently attend Church and I speak to them regularly.

Third, I DO know these people, and the scripture says that a spiritual man judges all things. The people who repeat the "don't judge" mantra don't understand scripture on this subject. There is a difference between "judge" (discern) and "judge" (condemn). Use your Greek dictionary.

"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."
(1 Corinthians 2:15)

Fourth, I do not belittle anyone for having faith. I'm clueless as to where you got that from.

Fifth, I do not involve myself in fear mongering. I'm not sure why you are saying this. Is it because I'm a conspiratorialist? If so, you need to know that the Church is a watchman on the wall (part of the job of the Church, by the way) and I have a responsibility to notify people when trouble is coming. Well, it's coming, and there is a huge difference between what I am doing and fear mongering.

Finally:

I asked that if you had a specific accusation against me, that you bring it on and be specific about it. Instead you continue with vague, public accusations.

No, I don't currently attend church, partly because of my work schedule and partly because most modern Christian churches have gone so far astray from the Bible that it's not possible for me to participate in them. I also told you that I would like to find a good one (there are still some) and I have been looking.

I fellowship with Christians by phone and online, but I don't consider that "Church".

Basically, I'm really shocked that you are having such a horrible reaction to my honest and open disappointment of the modern Church. It seems Christ did also. Read Revelation about the apostate "churches".



If others are offended, it's their responsibility to privately notify me, and indeed, someone did. That responsibility to notify me includes you. I'm not a mind reader, so it's up to people to notify me if they are offended. Read the Terms of Use for instructions pertaining to this.



No SoSick. Actually, I've been really lenient on you, as others have pointed out. The bottom line here is that it's YOUR responsibility to notify me *privately* if you've been offended. Simple.

I'm the moderator of this forum, not a babysitter for every boo-boo that grown adults may encounter. Besides, no one dishes it out like you do. If you're going to dish it out, you need to learn to take it.



Not true, or, if it was true, and if you were offended, why didn't you notify me? The way you dish it out it's hard to understand why you get so easily offended. Really.

Actually, you've been rude on many occasions (as I'm sure many here will attest to) and I have cringed at that fact that you conduct yourself this way and then call yourself a Christian, nevertheless, I allowed it to continue in my policy and belief of basic freedom.

As a Christian, it's your duty to be mature, kind yet honest, and not to be easily offended. Also, if you have problems with my disappointment with the condition of the modern Church, then you should have told me privately. This is a violation of the same scriptures you claim to uphold.



You're absolutely right, I do have motives, and they are to treat people with a reasonable amount of dignity, even if I disagree with them. Aside from that, I'm not sure what ideas you have built up in your mind, but as you said yourself, I can't read minds.



Are you reading my posts/messages? I'm asking you to do the right thing. If you didn't want to apologize, then why didn't you just continue our private dialog and tell me why. In fact, you did, and I said I would look further into it. Ironically, AFTER I said I'd look into it, then you began this tirade. This makes no sense.

Then, suddenly, you go off on me in public. This is just plain wrong. I know you have personal life issues you're dealing with, but I still expect you to treat people properly, and in my view, you're not.



Yes you did.

You said that's what Christians are supposed to do and you know that I am a Christian.



No they are not.

Actually you should read what Christ said about the modern Church in Revelation. The modern Church *has* become worldly in many ways and this upsets and disappoints me.



I spent years in the Church, was friends with the Preacher, did Bible studies with him, and even taught Sunday school and was invited to give a sermon once (which I did). I'm not sure how this qualifies as being on the outside looking in.



I don't recall you doing any such thing except that you told me that you liked Joel Osteen and that you didn't think there was anything wrong with people being lifted up by a sermon. You also said that there are people in the Church that know about conspiracies.

What would have been helpful is that you would follow basic Christian protocol and, if you have a problem with me, come to me privately. What you have done here is wrong and very poorly handled, to say the least.



You're not listening at all.

I didn't suggest an apology because of facts. Never! I suggested an apology because of conduct.

Conduct!



No. Again, it's about conduct, not facts.



First, it would be beneficial for you to understand what the Church really is. I said that I'm not a member of a Church, meaning a congregation. In scripture there is the Church, and then there is the Bride. It would be good to know the difference. Unfortunately, many modern Christians confuse the two. Bullinger has the best commentary I've seen on the subject.

Second, it would be beneficial for you to know the scripture before you hurl it at me...

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."
(Matthew 18:15-17)

Um...This scripture is talking about a "brother".

Apparently, by your judgement, I am not a brother because I don't to to church, and therefore, I don't deserve the simple benefits of this scripture verse. This is the best assessment I can make based on your statements.



I have already shown (and quote scripture) about the procedure of approaching a fellow Christian who has offended you.

YOU have not followed the procedure and then YOU accuse me of not understanding scripture.

Again, I can only assume (based on your remarks) that you don't believe that this scripture applies to me because I'm not currently attending a Church.

Are you judging? ...Condemning? What exactly are you doing?

In short, I expect that people do not slander others on this system. If they do, the victim must notify me, as is clearly stated in the Terms of Use.

You are also making vague and inaccurate public statements about me. I warned you about this in my previous response, but it continues.

I'm giving you a cooling-off period. If you want to rejoin, (although I doubt that you will have the desire), you are welcome to contact me privately in a week.

If you want to have your pictures removed, you need to follow the rules and identify the pictures by their containing post number. You can contact me via the administrator email box displayed at the bottom of this page.

i was bought up a jehovahs witness from a very young age,it is in my blood though my dad stopped when he got alzeimers, so we stopped, i was never baptised though.
A few yrs ago i started going to an evangelist church which was the best in London, so much fun.
With everything that is going on right now in the world, terrorists, wars, etc, i came to a conclusion that we are all different and have different beliefs, no-one can stop that, no matter how much people say their god is the truth, the opposition isnt listening. If you believe there is a creator, then all pathways should lead to the same one.

I'm done too Russ and the fighting gives me headaches as I've told you before, I truly hate the fighting here.

the photos in that thread, whole bunches and other stuff around. If you didn't repost them who accessed my account, and your webboard account and did? Because I deleted them from my account and cannot access them at all from my end anymore. They were reposted before you did the board upgrades so it has nothing to do with that. It's a lot of photos Russ someone really had to have made an effort if it wasn't an auto archive/reinsert thingy.

about in private Russ... I haven;t read you entire post there there sorry but I won't be able till tomorrow, well it was going well in private Russ till you made a public apology on my behalf and as I told you privately, I truly do not see that I should be required to apoligoze to jeanie for posting information or asking innocent questions, which she encouraged. She became quite hostile to me Russ, i did not start this fight. I am in a constant state of defense against accusations simply for my beliefs, which she claims to share. If she shares my beliefs why is she so angry about them?

Truly I have no idea. And why you let yourself be constantly drawn into things of this nature I have no idea either.

as far as christian goes, I think we are working on it Russ. It's not a perfect world I'd stick out quite a bit more if I were perfect.

I'm sure I would have been crucified by now in fact. Though it's been attempted here and there and failed so that should tell you something.

Well you can take credit for one thing Russ, you opened up a Politics forum. I'm sure this is only the start of many headaches for you. I don't envy the task. Politics and religion... 2 things you should never discuss at dinner.

Yah yah yah

We are all confused then, as to why your posts are so confrontational (so say the least).



I'm not sure what you mean about deleting pictures from your account. Pictures do not exist in accounts. They are placed within posts that you make.

If someone else has posted your pics, then look at the poster and give me the post number and I'll remove the pics.

Anyone has the ability to save an/or repost pictures from any place on the internet. Pictures are not protected anywhere on the internet. This is an artifact of the protocol that the internet uses and has nothing to do with this forum.

Also, there is no archive system on this forum. Posts remain where they were posted. That's all.

Also, no one has the ability to access your account unless they have the password. If you didn't give the password to someone, they don't have it.

In fact, I can't even get the password, because passwords are mangled using an industry-standard unidirectional hash and then stored so that it's virtually impossible to reverse engineer a password.

This system uses state-of-the-art password encryption and hash-storage algorithms so that I don't even have the ability to get passwords.

This is why, if you lose your password, I can't retrieve it for you. All I can do is generate a new one and then send it to you.

In short, no one accessed your account. I think you're confused about something or other.



Lesson learned, I hope.



OK, so that's what this is all about.

I didn't make an apology on your behalf. I thanked you for making one because I thought that you did. Apparently, I misunderstood a post you had made.

I was simply thanking you for it.



Again, it's not about that. It's about conduct.

If you would have read our private message, you would have seen that I was going to review the entire thread before making any other statements about it.



No.

You have had many run-ins on this system with people not because of beliefs, because of conduct.



There's nothing wrong with being angry.

She called you a censored name. I consider that an adult boo-boo. We all need to learn to take being called names without being offended by it.

There is a big difference between name-calling and slander (misrepresenting someone's character).



I have not been constantly drawn into anything. In fact, this discussion with you have been the most time-consuming things I've had to deal with for a long time.

Really not sure what you're talking about here.



Based on your previous posts, you don't consider me a Christian. As we all know, there is a big difference between being a Christian and being perfect.

There is only one perfect Person I know of. Only one.

My revolutionary idea here is that humans deserve respect even if they are not Christians. In fact, non-Christians may be impressed by our (supposed) self-control, personal peace, and even our conduct and may want to know more about how they can get some of this stuff for themselves.

This—our conduct—is normally our primary mode of witness.



All it tells me is that you've been disliked by some because of your harshness but that you were able to hold your own.

Nevertheless, some are crucified because of conduct. Others are crucified because of truth. It is better that we suffer for the latter than the former.

You have suffered because of both.



Two of the best subjects around because they are at the core of what make society work (or not).

I started these forums to help people.

That help comes in many forms, including truth (sharing what we've studied/learned), knowledge (sharing experience), admonition (by sharing conflicting ideas), rebuke (by sharing conflicting ideas, sometimes emotionally), and even love.

How revolutionary

Hey Dawn,

You said...


I understand how people can come to this conclusion, and I believe it's sad to see so many people believing different things because it divides people. I don't like division.

I think you're right. Those with opposing ideas are not listening. But why?

Can you imagine how great it would be if we all believed the same way.

For example, there are people who vehemently defend the claim that amalgam fillings are safe. Others—especially those who have experienced amalgam fillings (like me)—know very well how much they completely robbed me of my life, and that they are dangerous.

Now, people argue about this subject without end. Debates get hot and continue for long periods of time. Buy perhaps we should ask ourselves why they continue. If there is only one truth (either amalgams are safe or they are not...both cannot be true), then why do people argue about it?

I studied the Bible for years and finally concluded that it was an authentic book authored by a God who was in the process of "raising" children so they could eventually be rejoined with Him.

Many people who study the Bible conclude the same as I do. Others don't. Who is right?

The Bible says this:

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?"
(James 4:1)

Here's what I've observed.

Some people have the ability to be objective. Others don't. Those who don't, have their perception deeply colored by their own desires, "lusts" as the Bible calls them.

Some people want the Bible to be true, others don't. So now, if you separated these people into groups, you have this:

(1) Objective: Desire Bible to be true
(2) Objective: Desire Bible to be untrue
(3) Subjective: Desire Bible to be true
(4) Subjective: Desire Bible to be untrue

What I have found, is the people in groups 1, 2, and 3 become believers in the Bible. Those in group 4 do not. If you think about these observations, this is pretty revealing.

Now, to add to the complexity, most of the global media coerce the public into group 4. They do this in the following ways:

(1) Promoting the philosophy of "entitlement": "You deserve whatever you want". This causes people to move from groups 1 and 2 into group 4.

(2) Promoting subjective thinking styles through education and advertising. Subjective thinking is also known as "emotionalism". It coerces people to "feel" or to "follow your heart" to guide you in the decision making process. Some religious groups even go so far as to say that the universe is what you make of it, and that you are creating your own reality. This moves people from groups 1 and 2 to group 4.

(3) Slandering the Bible: By lying about the Bible in such a way that makes it emotionally unappealing or socially degrading, they can coerce more people from group 3 into group 4. By lying about the Bible in a way that appears objective (Discovery Channel, etc.), they can coerce people from group 1 to move to group 2. Here, they are now more easily moved to group 4. There, they won't even analyze the Bible on their own simply accepting what they've been told, and so they simply reject it without personal investigation.

(4) You dumb people down or artificially force them from groups 1 and 2 groups into groups 3 and 4 by mercury, fluoride, MSG, and other substances that disable them from maintaining their objectivity. These substances make people less intelligent and more emotional and therefore more influenceable. People in group 3 are more easily coerced into group 4.

Finally, after you've moved everyone into more subjective groups or have colored their perception through false information, you just need to discredit those in group 1 (those stubborn individuals who hold onto logic and reason regardless of how they feel or what any else thinks), because those in group 1 have the potential to be very influential.

So, after all this social manipulation is done, you end up with a small group that actually maintains little emotional bias along with the intellectual capacity to digest information.

You also end up with a majority of the population being emotionally-based and looking at those in group 1 as social misfits in some way or another.

So, what I'm saying here is that the majority of people make decisions about what they believe based on emotion, i.e. personal desire, just as the scripture says, and therefore they come to a myriad of differing conclusions about truth because truth is now (in one way or another) subject to their own desires, and desires are varied by nature.

The people in group 1 stubbornly uphold their position because they have done the homework necessary to clearly see that the Bible has astounding evidence supporting it's authenticity, but people in the other groups emotionally hold to their positions because they believe it is their right, or because they know if they let their position go, it will cause a demotion in their emotional quality of life, something they hold very dear.

Finally, the media floods the public with such vast amounts of conflicting information that many people become exhausted and give up not knowing where or how to find truth.

This is the same tactic used by those who have incessantly been poisoning us with mercury (etc.). They produce false information and then continue to flood the intellectual marketplace with lies so that people no longer even trust their own ability to draw conclusions, that is, their own common sense.

Hence, the world today:


Confusion --> Division --> Exhaustion --> Apathy


Besides the prophecies predicting the future, the Bible has internal numerology that is astounding. For those who are interested, I would read the book, "Number In Scripture" by Bullinger. It's quite amazing and not taught in most Churches today.

Christ also said that there is only One way to God, and that is through Him.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
(John 14:6)

"All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."
(John 10:8-11)

Considering the evidence He has provided, I would strongly suggest that anyone who has not done so, study the depths of the Bible and determine if it does not provide the evidence necessary to make the statements it does.

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
(Matthew 24:4-5)



The Bar Code and the Mark of the Beast

...for by your medication were all the nations deceived.

Heya Russ. Firstly, there's very little here I disagree with you about in this thread.

However...



Can you imagine how dreadful it would be? All the cultures and traditions and languages and religions and perceptions squashed for the desire of sameness. Unless I misinterpret your meaning here. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing. It may seem wonderful, the idea that everyone share the same belief (are you inferring religion here?) so as to avoid holy wars and the consequent innocent lives taken as a result. But I think a world possessed of one belief would be an even greater sickness on mankind than the already existing dilemma. Novels such as 1984, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, Fahrenheit 457 and even the film THX1138 immediately spring to mind. I'm talking about dystopia here. Utopian agony. Sameness.

Ultimately humans behave differently because we are different. I've never found the expression people are people to be anything further from the truth. If humans were non-theistic animals, not in the philosophical sense of the word but if it were something which never entered our minds, rest assured we'd be waging war and killing one another over other things instead. Besides which, nine nine times out of 10 wars fought in the name of religion are a mere cover up. In the time of King Henry VIII, England was trying to separate from Rome, with religion as the ultimate explanation - at the end of the day, though, this was just a facade. It wasn't about religion any more than the war in Iraq is about "liberating Iraqis".

So whether it's religion, territory, resources or something altogether different (or something pretending it's something else), humans will behave as it is in their nature to do so and the more human among us will try and impede the less human (murderers, rapists, etc.) from atrocities. But sameness worldwide is not only an impossibility but the attempt to do so is a greater violation than the bloodiest of holy wars. Just think of all the fascinating cultures in the non-industrial world -- some of which have never seen things like television or telephones (and I'm not talking 3rd world poverty here, I refer specifically to tribes in the Amazon and elsewhere) -- and how these beautiful peoples would cease to exist all in the name of sameness. All so that we can believe the same thing. One might as well say: think how great the world would be if we all listened (and only listened) to country music, or if we all had blond hair or blue eyes, etc.

I think we're coming together here beautifully!!! : ) I hope SoSick is ok, (?) but people are really talking from what I see.

Hi Jeanie, ((( Smiles )))

Ohhh.. This is a long thread..
Just scanned it but we are comeing together here and people
are talking.. Interesting but it will take time to read it all
so I'll just focus on this..
I was brought up in the Church of the Nazarenes..
But for all the years I went to Church back then..
I think I've learned more over the last past years
then I learned in all that time..
Maybe it was because I was really young or..
I'm not quite sure but..
Then I became Baptist and...
Well.. It's all been on a path that has lead to this..
But when I was sick with T and H...
I couldn't even leave the house..
And the last time I went to a Church event of recent..
It was an outdoor picnic baptism and my severe autistic child
was very very vocal and loud and...
It just didn't work out well..
But people seemed nice about it but..
But it's just to hard..
But my other child loves sunday school but it's like the basic really..
So I've been reading/ teaching her..
But.. I found this site long ago and..
It's interesting reading....

A Church Without Walls........

http://www.ptm.org/cwr/info/interviewCWR.htm

“Don't believe me – BELIEVE YOUR BIBLE – BELIEVE GOD!”

Herbert W. Armstrong, Plain Truth magazine, Sept. 1963, Personal pg.1

There are people we serve who can't find a healthy, well-balanced church close to their home.
There are people who can't, for health reasons, leave their home.
There are people who find it difficult to find or pay for transportation to get to the church they would like to attend.
I've been an ordained minister for over 30 years -- why not reach those who cannot or will not attend church in a building?

From the Plain Truth...
Note.. I do not belong to this Church....
But what they write about regarding disabled people or people who are ill...
Or the reasons one may not attend a Church..
There are people we serve who can't find a healthy, well-balanced church close to their home..
And what a Church really is..
Sitting in a building does not transform us into being Christian -- and it doesn't necessarily maintain our Christianity.

Very interesing site...
Thought I'd share it...

Take Care
Lynn

Reply to Pwcca...

You're thinking is completely reversed here. You're making a vast assumption.

Truth's Effect On Society

Believing truth does not make us robots and certainly does not make us all the same. In fact, an understanding of the Bible creates great diversity, but with peace. In fact, a common faith in the Bible would be (and eventually will be) a source of diversity—through peace—that has heretofore been unseen in the world.

If a culture believes that the world is flat, this belief is not the culture. It may be a common belief among a certain people who make up a culture, and this common belief may shape the attributes of the culture (for better or worse), but it is not the culture.

When a people believe a lie, that people are not enlightened or empowered. They are ignorant, and this ignorance stifles them in every way.

This lie then becomes a belief system—a religion—that this people will pass on to their offspring, and then eventually defend, sometimes to the death.

The answer to strife in the world is not—as Lennon mistakenly assumed—getting rid of all religions. The answer is getting rid of all lies.

Please note this important fact:

I'm not saying that we should get rid of all people who believe a lie. No. We should get rid of the lies they believe.

So, how do you we this?

Truthful, accurate, education.

There has been some division on our family lately. Some members are in disagreement about some issues of truth and it is causing strife (separation). So, a family member (who is smart) came to me a few weeks ago and said that they believed that the only reason there is separation is because we've all been exposed to different information (i.e., lies). He said that he believed that if we all had the same information, then there would be no strife. How insightful. He is right.

So he (wisely) is now participating in Biblical and world studies with Laura and I on the weekends. Our hope is that this study will grow until more of my family allows themselves to be exposed to this information. If they do, it will bring unity to the family, but will not destroy any diversity at all. It will only remove the lies and therefore remove the strife.

How does a common belief in truth enhance diversity?

How difficult is it to be diverse in a time of war? In this condition, people have to align their actions and use up their resources to fight.

Wouldn't it be better if we could use our resources freely so Bob can be a micro biologist, and Sally can be a rocket scientist, and Sara can be a musician, and Herb can go live in the woods and enjoy the beauty of the rain forest.

Wouldn't it be nice?

Diversity increases in times of economic prosperity. True freedom in peace greatly enhances diversity. Peace and unity come by knowing Truth.

Reality

The fact is, the leaders of nearly every country of the world are currently involved in a coop. This coop is called the New World Order (their own words). The Bible calls this the last world kingdom. Bible scholars call this the "Revived Roman Empire".

The implementation of the coop involves massive lies and deception in order to create division among people (One such lie is evolution). These people have to create division in order to eliminate the possibility of people working together in large groups, because if people did that, these criminals would be overthrown and tried for their crimes against humanity; A process of war called "divide and conquer".

This is the condition of the world today, and not because of religion, but because of lies: Lies, like evolution, lies like the war in Iraq, lies like fiat money, etc.

Herein lies the root problem.

Some people actually don't want the truth. Some people find that the rules put fourth by the One True God are too harsh.

No. They don't like rules like: Don't sleep with your neighbor's wife, or don't steal your neighbors money.

So, because they don't like these rules, they begin to separate themselves from truth. They stop studying Truth. They stop learning, and when they do this, they start to form all kinds of silly ideas in their heads to ease their conscience. These silly ideas are lies.

So, why don't they like truth?

Because it causes them to have to exhibit self discipline; It interferes with their lusts.

Huxley was honest about it.

"I had motives for not wanting the world to have meaning, consequently assumed it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption . . The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics; he is also concerned to prove there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do . . For myself, as no doubt for most of my contemporaries, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation. The liberation we desired was simultaneously liberation from a certain political and economic system and liberation from a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom."

—Aldous Huxley, "Confessions of a Professed Atheist," Report: Perspective on the News, Vol. 3, June 1966, p. 19 [grandson of evolutionist Thomas Huxley, Darwin's closest friend and promoter, and brother of evolutionist Julian Huxley. Aldous Huxley was one of the most influential liberal writers of the 20th century].

Yes, you see, the Bible had it right all along. You'd think we'd learn to listen, wouldn't you?

So where does this lead—this lust that separates us from Truth?

Slavery.

Yes, slavery.

Why do you think our rights are being taken away? Well, it's claimed they are being taken away for the preservation of freedom and security.

This logic falls flat in it's face because it's based on a lie.

We have to ask ourselves: How does losing our freedom protect our freedom?

Hmmm.

You see, when you find internal contradiction in an idea, you can begin to detect a lie.

Additionally, if people allow the government to have the power to lock people up for saying things that are "anti-American" for the purpose of preserving security, we can see that the government becomes the speech police, essentially, the thought police.

Kinda' sounds like a loss of diversity in ideas, doesn't it?

There you see the promotion of a lie which leads to a loss of diversity, which when matured, becomes slavery.

What God Wants

God wants us to be free. He taught us how to be free and how to stay free.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
(John 8:32)

But many people aren't listening because the education system and the mass media (directed by the secret societies currently directing world affairs) are teaching lies causing division and enslaving people into false ideas, but the education system could not succeed in this endeavor if it were not for the fact that some of us want to believe these false ideas.

So, it's our own fault. The truth is available but more and more people are not bothering to take a look at it.

Sadily, you will soon see where that leads us.

Slavery.

The Answer

Courage unto purity.

It is our own desires to be immoral (lusts) that we allow to drive us away from truth. When we drift away from truth, we are no longer inclined to defend freedom. When we don't defend freedom, we fall into slavery.

If we would be willing to allow ourselves to be once again exposed to truth, giving up our lusts, we would be willing and able to work together and throw off the burdens we live under, and God would help us in this endeavor.

Unfortunately, too many continue to refuse to even consider taking control of their lives. So apathy abounds.

So here we remain.


"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."
(Revelation 3:15-16)

(Those who don't care will be rejected from the body of Christ.)


"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."
(1 Corinthians 12:12-27)

(We can all be unified in truth and still remain diverse.)

In other words, Russ, you think your religion is the one "true" religion and all others are false faiths which should be done away with.

What a frightening thought.

Then you believe that diversity is not a good thing and we should all think alike? Well, at least where religion is concerned.

In order to educate all our children about these Biblical truths shouldn't we change the laws so the Christian interpretation of the Bible must be taught in all schools?

I don't look at what I believe as a religion. I usually use the word "religion" to describe a man-made belief system. My belief system is what I call my "world-view".

I do this because the Bible does not contain all I know to be true.

For example, the Bible does not talk about the Motorola 68000 family of microprocessors or sound-processing technology or the "C" programming language, yet, I know a lot about these things.

But of all the information that I have accumulated and verified as true in my life, the Bible is clearly the most important information.

I am well aware that most people are quite quick to come to conclusions, but I am not this way. I have realized that of the 3 categories of knowledge in my mind (what I know to be true, what I know to be false, and what I don't know), the third category is by (very, very) far the largest.

Becoming aware of what there is to know in life is a humbling experience. I feel tiny and minute in the scope of the universe, yet I know God considers me valuable because He said so in the same Book that has astounding evidences of His authorship, plus He's participated in my life in profound ways. I don't say this lightly.

Do I believe my world view is the one true world view?

Of course. If I didn't, then I wouldn't have a world-view. Everything in my mind would be in the third category. I actually know people like this. They say that they know nothing.

But I realize that you're probably intending to ask a much more specific question, something like this:

Do I believe that the Bible is true?

Absolutely. There is ample evidence to show this, in my skeptical opinion. I would certainly not make such dogmatic statements and risk looking like a fool if I didn't have confidence in the claims of the Book.

Does this mean that other religions are not true?

This would be a nonsensical question because most religions contain 80% to 90% truth, so it's not possible to quantize this question into a "yes" or a "no".

But if you were to ask the question; Is Jesus of Nazareth who He claimed to be?

Then I would say, "Yes."

Does this imply that there are fundamental problems with other religions that deny that Christ is who He said He was (even though these other religions could be 90% true)?

Definitely.

Do I Believe that there are fundamental problems with the Bible?

No. I have read it about 10 times cover to cover, and have studied it for over 20 years and have not found any fundamental problems; A minor translation issue here or there, but no fundamental problems. I have not found another book like this.

So, the pivotal question for all humans to answer, is this:

Who is Christ?

There is no question as important and no question as revealing of who a person is.

You judge the Bible without knowing it but I serve as a witness to you that it is astounding and that it could not possibly have been written by mankind. It is full of evidence, including numeric and prophetic, that validates it's authenticity. No other book that I know of on the planet can make this claim.

Yes, I know that there is some prophecy in other places here and there, and I know that there is some gametria in other places here and there, but there is nothing I know of that is packed so completely and so self-defining as the Bible.

Truth is truth, whether we like it or not. I say, why don't we just learn to like it.

It's difficult for me to believe that you could have read my response and then come to this conclusion.

There is no diversity in truth, but knowing and living truth produces profound diversity in life.

Hello,
I totally agree with all that Russ has posted. He posted scriptures, straight out of the Bible, the Holy Word of God. He did not water it down.

Perhaps those who have further questions regarding all the 'chit-chat', would be interested in reading the below website, "Christian Apologetics and Research" , (see below).

The term 'Religion' is indeed a man-made word. There are hundreds of religions in this world.

I prefer to say that 'I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ."

This webite is most interesting and if you will read it with an open mind and open heart, the Lord through the Holy Spirit, will minister His Truth to you. As Russ stated, Jesus said, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE", "NOBODY COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME".

AMEN! "There is no diversity in truth, but knowing and living truth produces profound diversity in life."(quote from Russ).

The Bible used to be taught in our schools until our Country turned away from God, and took the Bible out of the schools.
PLease refer to this website: <www.carm.org>

Thank you,
Abishag <><

Hi So Sick ((( Smiles )))

Late last night I read this thread more in full detail..
But it seems like whatever it was came about from a misunderstanding of sorts and then took on a alife of its own..
It's seems some things may have been said in the heat of passion that should not have been said..
Maybe from perceived slights or hurt feelings or a lack of sleep or from being sick..
I have no idea not going to go there..
But I hope whatever it is can be worked out in time..
With a better understanding..
Weither in being tired or frustrated ect..
And I've had my not so good days as well..
I tire out too at times..
I'm not perfect...
It's O.K. to agree or disagree in something..
Thats not a problem here at all..
From what I've read above..

But it does say in 2 Timothy 2:24..
But a slave of (the) Lord ought not to quarrel, but to
be gental towards all. apt to teach forbearing, in meekness
teaching thoses who have opposed,
if perhapes God may give them repenetance for a full knowledge of (the) truth.

But it allso says.. 2 Timothy 2:22 But flee youthfull lusts,
and pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with the (ones)
calling on the Lord out of a pure heart. But refuse the foolish
and uninstructed questionings, knowing they generate quarrels..

And I think that could be true in the frustration of trying to
carry on a conversation with someone who is uninstructed in
the fullness of the message of the Scriptures as well ...
Or the understanding of ect..
In that direction or way..

I think it is the frustration that is showing up here..
Correct me if I'm wrong..
The frustration you say you feel So Sick..
And as you wrote above..
I have already apologized to Russ..
I think thats good for some of the things that may have been
said out of frustration or misunderstanding..
At the time...
But what I'm saying here is..
How are you doing now...
Are you O.K?????
We do care about your wellbeing it has nothing to do with that..

All that I can think of now is..
1 Peter 2:6..
" Behold I lay in Zion an elect, precious stone, a Corner- foundation; and the one believeing in Him shall not be ashamed,
never!"
{ Isaiah 28:16 }

1:13 Peter: And who (is) the (one) harmimg you if you become
imitaters of the good? But if you truely suffer because of righteousness, blessed (are you).
But do not fear their fear,
nor be disturbed.
{Isaiah 8:12,13}

Seek peace and pursue it if possible..
That seems to be a good one here right now..
I hope I don't get in trouble here for this...
But I was just concerned about how So Sicks is doing...
As part of the group here...
Misunderstandings happen...
And sometimes frustrations set in as well...
But we can get beyond them..
It can be worked out....
Is it weak to be gental at times...
I don't think it is....
There can be strength in weakness too..
I hope you feel alittle better now..

You Take Care
Lynn

Oh Plus, ((( Smiles )))

Adding to that other site up above..

Gathered In His Name....

"For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them"
-Jesus (Matthew 18:20)

When there is a gathering of at least two people who call on Jesus, there is a church.
The church is not a building, or a place, or an event that happens at a special time.
The church is not a thing, the church is people!

http://www.gatheredinhisname.info/

Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:19-22)

Jesus proclaimed in Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them".
How simple is that? A gathering, a congregation, an assembly of two or more followers of Jesus wherever and whenever they meet with Jesus present every time.

"Jesus People Gathering". Now doesn't that more clearly define "church"

http://www.gatheredinhisname.info/ekklesia.html

"For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among you." Matthew 18:20

To help overcome loneliness, especially among those women who are unable to participate in church activities; and
To endeavor to make our community a better place for all.

Meet in small groups called circles....
I think thats a great idea for a Church to provide for people..
As they do.......
The circles meet in members' homes except in January and February when all circles meet at the church.
Additionally, they provide outreach and caring to the women of our church who are homebound or in nursing homes.

http://www.2ndpreslou.org/ministries/women.htm

Called Out ...

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession,
that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;" (1 Peter 2:9).

The church is the temple of God, meaning that God dwells in His people.
We are warned not to destroy the temple by harming or discouraging its people (1 Corinthians 3:16,17).

http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-1-peter-2-9.htm

But in regard to politics...
And why we look forward to that day...
What kind of ruler will Jesus prove to be?
And is there diversity in Christ??
Yes of course..
In my beliefs which I believe to be true..
God created all sorts of different kinds of people with
different fingerprints and DNA which is unique to them..
Plus individul minds to think independently with..
The biggest change will be in sovereignity..
People will change too.. clothing themselves in
compassion, kindness..
It will be a different kind of world..
{Colossians 3:12 }

Micah 4:4: explains that in God's new world there will
be security and peace for all: There will be no one makeing them tremble..

And that will be possible through the Kingly law of love.
The supreme law that will govern all thoughts and actions..

Many people look for a President, King, Ruler on this
planet to solve all our problems with high hopes and all our problems never seem to really get fixed or better...
Yet we will follow them to the ends of the earth and get excited everytime and then eventually..
We usually end up feeling letdown when all our expectations are not being fufilled..
Or maybe most of then not being fufilled..
Or nothing changes or things get worse..
But as long as that ruler happens not to be God..
It's O.K. then I guess...

But whats to fear in this world?
Well actually alot....
Crime, violence or wickedness, sickness, pollution, hunger, poverty, death ect.. You name it..
This world is a mess...

And they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks..
Nation shall not lift up a sword against nation,
nor shall they learn war anymore..

Whats not to like about that....
You know of any politician that can deliver on that promise??

Plus.. I believe we are in the last days..
Since the restoration of Israel..
The countdown according to scripture..

Men and women...
Are spreading around the word..
The good news..
The prophesy of Joel 2:28..
And Acts 2:16..

Todays calling..
And we will be rejoiceing under Kingdom rule..
An equal inhertance..

What sort of ruler will Jesus prove to be?
When he was on earth, he displayed a deep love for people.
Jesus compassionately gave food to the hungry.
He healed the sick and restored sight to the blind,
speech to the speechless, and soundness of limb to the lame.
Jesus even brought back the dead to life!
( Matthew 15:30-38; Mark 1:34 Luke 7:11-17 )

Thoses miracles were foregleams of the marvelous things he
will yet do as King..
How wonderfull it will be to have such a beneficent ruler!
At that time the eyes of the blind one will be opened,
and the very ears of the deaf ones will be unstoped.
At that time the lame one will climb up just as a stag does,
and the tongue of the speechless one will cry out in gladness."
{ Isaiah 35:5,6 }

Pointing ahead to that grand day,
the apostle John wrote: "I heard a loud voice from the throne say: Look!
The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples.
And God himself will be with them.
And he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.
The former things have passed away."
Revelation 21:3,4..

But first the good news has to be shared..
God instructed it to be so..
In thoses latter days..

No politician on earth can deliver that..
And there's only "a short period of time " remaining untill Armageddon, when God destroys the word system that Satan controls..

And then a new political if one wants to call it that..
Or Kingdom rule will begain..
No more sickness No more Pain No more Worries No more Tears..
Now thats happiness..

You know of any politician that can deliver that??
I think alot of people in this world are sick of politics
and polticians.. Just hopeless...
They want real change and then there is this..

So there it is....

well howdy, um, is there a politics forum on this here forum? Cuz there's a whole lotta political stuff goin down out there and it smells real bad ....
just wondrin, did I bump ma head or are those real stars y'all got there SS?
Howdy new faces an all, howzabout keepin the info flowing ,eh? Y'all can argue til the genetically modified cows come home on religion, but I gotta predilection for the sharing a suppressed information. Whatever anabody says, I believe the truth shall set you free, not pages an pages a "my god is better'n yourn"
Oh well, to each their own, meanwhile....

Cern ??? What's THAT all about?
Georgia?
Iran???
Israel?

Back off Elvis. I have a feeling you are just someone on here's alter ego and it "ain't" Elvis.

Hey Elvis
Hadn't seen ya on for awhile. How are ya?

Cern ??? What's THAT all about?
Georgia?
Iran???
Israel?
Yeah I was wondering the same thing. I heard the radio announcer talking about the Russia/georgia thing and I heard them say there were already 156 refugees so I guess they are fixing to start making use of some those concentration camps. Things seem to be moving pretty fast at this point. Don't ya think. Good to talk to ya by the way!!!
Rachel

Sorry if I spoke out of turn...Elvis - heh.

The stuff going on is indeed scary. Kind of seems like WWIII is looming.

America may be a diminishing nation but anyone who thinks that that is THE problem for events to come about has not been reading Bible Prophecy!

All, and that's all nation's that's all people have fallen short of the glory of God!
And certain event's that God fordained will come about.
It's not just about us.
But of course the character and beliefs and actions of the citizens of one's nation will be the factor in the fall decline or the prosperity of that nation!

Sorcery and Drugs In Opening The Last Days Spirit Portal - Dr Future Interview (full video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tZtw0xuO4w&feature=related

Because of our backsliding away from our God our Yeshua/Jesus into disobedence and eastern religion and the occult and greed and violence the fourth horse will be allowed to ride.
One nation under God?
What's left to protect?
We have fallen astray as a nation and now..

The pale " GREEN " horse is allowed to ride!

http://www.endtime.com/islam/

It's GREEN not pale it's Pharmakie not Socery mistranslation's of the greek word's.

One Nation Under Judgement We Have Truly Lost Our Way! Pestilence! War!

http://orbisvitae.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=64362#Post64362

We are approaching World War 3 people just don't see it yet.
What is coming upon us we all need to pray for forgiveness!

It's Time To Wake Up America And Smell The Coffee!
And to look at the events that surrounds us!
The Signs of the Times!

And a nation that poisons it's children and citizens is certainly a nation under Judgement and will be brought down this country has become so corrupted and letting and pushing it's citizen to be injected with all those known toxins "many people consider an evil thing."
We have truly lost our way.
People who have been previously vaccinated are breaking out with what at one time was called the normal illnesses of childhood and that getting them would cause natural immunity.
It has now been made into a terrible scarry foreign thing that must be fought at all cost so get your free vaccinations here
Yes, those previous vaccination doses less effective or wearing off so you need to be vaccinated and vaccinated over and over and over again or some call it poisoned and poisoned all over again.
It makes you wonder how we dealt with it in the past as children in schools came down with these childhood ailments and civilization moved on and the baby boomers are huge in numbers still and lots of them had the measles, mumps and chicken pox.
Just like what over anti-biotic use causes over vaccinations will most likely cause the same thing as well..
There will be Pestilence.
Worldwide vaccinations will probably be the propelling system that makes us all more vunerable and helps to bring it on.
The Bible does say we live in Satan's world at this time.
And look what they do to us?
The United States.
A Christian nation or a Fallen Nation.
We ARE part of the world you decide.

PESTILENCE BIBLE STUDY

http://www.christianityoasis.com/endtimes/Pestilence.htm