Are there billions of years between verses one and two?

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<div style="padding-left:5px; padding-right:5px;" align="left"> <h1 style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:14px; color:#046716">Are there billions of years between verses one and two? </h1>
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<p><a href="http://www.drdino.com/readNews.php?id=48"><img src="http://shopping.drdino.com/emails/050708/videobanner.jpg" alt="Watch the clip" width="152" height="139" border="0" align="left" style="padding-right:10px;"></a>For thousands of years, nearly all Christians believed that the earth was about six thousand years old as revealed in God’s Word. But by the early 1800s the literal interpretation of Genesis fell under fire. Initially popularized by Scottish theologian Thomas Chalmers and later by the <em>Scofield Reference Bible</em>, the <em>gap theory</em> became a convenient method by which theologians compromise Holy Scripture with Darwin’s evolution theory.<br>

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The Bible teaches “In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth” and continues by saying “the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep” (Genesis 1:1-2). Proponents of the gap theory suggest there is a gap between those two verses that accounts for Satan’s rebellion, dinosaurs, a geological record, and billions of years of evolution.<br>
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That “gap,” however, is nothing more than an attempt to harmonize God’s perfect Word with man’s imperfect thoughts. In fact, it is irreconcilable with the rest of Scripture. The words “without form, and void” in Genesis 1:2 come from the Hebrew phrase “tohu waw bohu,” which means “unformed and unfilled.” This indicates the earth was not yet formed or filled.<br>

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Further discrepancies between Scripture and the gap theory are seen when looking at the law God gave Moses. As God etched the Ten Commandments in stone, He said, “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and <strong><em>all</em></strong> that in them is” (Exodus 20:11). God unmistakably says that <strong>everything</strong> was made in six days. This would include angels, heaven, earth, and mankind—everything.<br>
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The gap theory also disagrees with New Testament Scripture. The Bible is clear that “by man came death” (1 Corinthians 15:21-22) and “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (Romans 5:12). These passages undeniably teach that the first sin came by Adam and that there was no death before sin. Therefore, it is incompatible to teach that a civilization existed before Adam, because it would place death before sin—a direct contradiction to Scripture.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.drdino.com/readNews.php?id=48">Watch as Dr. Hovind gives many more reasons why the gap theory is contrary to the Bible</a>, or dig a little deeper with <em><a href="http://shopping.drdino.com/product-exec/product_id/247/nm/Unformed_and_Unfilled/category_id/9?utm_source=050708+CICS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Unformed_Unfilled">Unformed and Unfilled</a></em>.<br>

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The Scofield Reference Bible is quite good, but not infallible. Of all the compromises, this is probably the easiest to understand; but it leads to no good. Better to take a little time & become educated.

I think I can agee with that for the most part, but the bible also says that a thousand years is like a day to the Lord God and a day like a thousand years. and which thought is often used in regard to prophecy in the bible so it can be applied to other parts too, no?

Altogether, I don't know. It stands to reason that Yeshua existed prior as God's first son since supposedly he had a hand in creation, and even satan is refefred to as a son of God in Job and the bible doesn't actually tell us anything about their creation etc. Genesis 1:26 says quite directly 'Let US make man in OUR image'.

But i was just going to mention something like that in the other thread.so thanks for the clarification beforehand from that angle. it's a mystery to me.

the earth without form, and void, has always impressed me simply as matter floating around in space, or wherever. And the heaven as we refer to it does not necessarily include God's dwelling place, which some say is above that somewhere, some other 'heaven'. I think it may even be mentioned in the bible as such (above the heavens) but not sure offhand, pretty sure. stands to reason if that were so that the angels dwelled with God above the heavens long before the earth without form was formed into the earth as we know it. and light, God is light no? so a different type of light than the sun shining (angels of light etc) but wherever God dwells he does not need the sun to have light. he has something better I think.

but anyway, a mystery to me. all the same in the end from here. If God wanted us to know everything he would say but he doesn't.

any evolution (abiogenesis type, man from microbes etc) in there or civilization before adam, no, that didn't happen. Man has really only been here, 7, 8, 10 however many thousand years I think that is actually pretty evident. just the age of the earth could be a bit more than whatever they say it is biblically generally (young earth), simply as matter free floating around in space.

does that make sense?

The difficulty here is, as SoSick pointed out, that a day to God is not the same as a day to Moses. God could be taking the days as Moses sees them as a symbol for the days as God sees them. So the Sabbath represents the time that God rested so man should take every seventh day off. This is obviously wise in that everyone needs some time to relieve stress. Additionally, Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, not God.


There is another difficulty here in that we really don't know what "death" Paul is talking about. He was a scholar of the Torah so he must have been very familiar with the scriptures. See Genesis 2:16 and 2:17...

16And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and blessing and calamity you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

However, as we all know, Adam did not die on the day he ate of that tree. In fact, he did not die for over 900 years. Additionally, none of the curses that God puts in place in chapter 3 say anything about adding death to the world, just to humans.

So, what did God mean when he told Adam that he would die on the day that he ate the fruit? Is this a different kind of death than physical death? If it is death of the spirit, then physical death may have existed all along. Paul, in Romans 8, mentions that our spirit is dead unless we accept Christ which lends support to the "death" in Adam was spiritual death.

If a day for God is a long time and physical death is not the death initiated by Adam's sin, then the Earth could be very old and evolution is a possibility compatible with the Bible.

I don't think either II Pet. 2:3 or Ps. 90:4 are intended to be secret keys which will unlock prophesies, much less reconcile Genesis with evolutionism. They say what they say, and anything beyond this needs to be understood as extrapolation.

A blanket application of the principle "when God says a day it means a thousand years & vice versa" is obviously problematic and absurd. Blanket applications to prophecy run into trouble as well. Rev. 20 beginsCan this principle do anything here other than show itself to be absurd?

I can't fault people for considering this premise; we all desire to learn more. But those who teach it without evaluating it carefully need to stop. It just doesn't hold up. The practice of searching the scriptures for a single verse which can be manipulated into giving apparent support for one's own wishes cannot find support in scripture.

Compromising is contrary to scripture, and anything contrary to scripture is dangerous. Werner Gitt has a page entitled [i]10 Dangers of Theistic Evolution.[/i]These dangers should not be lightly dismissed. Myself, I see no motive for the educated to compromise, other than worldly concerns for popularity & maybe money.

Well, as for myself, i am not in anyway trying to reconcile the bible with evolution. However, there is a point to be made as what God means sometimes when he says 'the day'.

this is a good example of it that Linear pointed out


God did mean physical death. and surely enough Adam died before a thousand years were up since that day.

We aren't given any indication of how long Adam lived before Eve was created, or before they ate whatever they ate that would later cause physical death.

It must have been a very long time though because naming all the animals probably didn't happen overnight. It could have been hundreds of years, a thousand even, probably not likely to be billions.

There are 3 types of creation.

1) Said: Is creating something from nothing, Or speaking something into existence. The power of God's spoken word.
2) Made or formed: Is forming a creation from matter that already exists. God made the firmament.
3) Bring forth: Is a commandment creation. Where God commands his creation to bring forth life (Let the earth bring forth grass).

And there is only one creation that was formed. Man.

gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So when the Bible speaks of an earth without "form" and void. It very well could be saying that the earth was void without the creation of man which was the only "formed" creation.

I'm coming in kind of cold here without looking all the way up, but the part you are quoting from Revelation, CTD, we believe to be about the upcoming Millenial Reign where satan and his fellow demons will be chained or not allowed to affect us here on the earth for that period. The earth will be changed (I believe the cleansing will have happened? Not sure - it has already been baptized, (the flood), and the cleansing will be like the gift of the holy ghost, (by fire!) anyway - the absolutely wicked will have been swept from the earth and, although not all will still accept the Gospel, those willing to abide a terrestrial law will still remain. But anyway - the point is this is literally a thousand year reign. We are nearing the end of the 6th thousand year reign and are heading soon into the earth's sabbath so to speak. Christ will reign on the earth...govern it. Not quite heaven yet, but not like now. And resurrected beings will be here.... Not an expert even on what we believe on that, but thats the jist.

I just read somewhere, though, that we don't know that each creative "day" was exactly the same. But it was obviously more than a day as we know it by far.

I also, too, just read about the matter issue... All matter is eternal in that it is not destructible - matter just turns into different forms. (Scientists know that except some may not have thought of it quite in those terms??? (Have you scientists??) So when the earth was created it was using that pre-existent matter.....it was simply organized... (and had previously been chaotic or unorganized). All things had to be put into place so that what we would need on this earth would be there before we were placed here. (Oil, etc.)

In mentioning terrestrial above, see 1st Corinthians 15: 40-41
See vs. 51-52, too, about being "twinkled." We will not die in the millenium...we will be changed to terrestrial bodies and live to the age of a tree. Also SoSick...hmmm..Paul mentions baptism for the dead???? Vs. 29 - Apparently they practiced what we do now in the original church!!! WOW!!

There is a lot, actually, about the creation in this chapter, too.


THE FIRST EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO THE
CORINTHIANS

CHAPTER 15
Christ died for our sins—He rose from the dead and was seen by many—All men will be resurrected—Paul speaks of baptism for the dead—The three degrees of glory—Victory over death comes through Christ.

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he arose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was aseen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of babove five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was aseen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the agrace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this alife only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his ccoming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead crise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in acorruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all asleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this bmortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Linear, the earth was Celestial when Adam and Eve walked in the Garden of Eden. God walked and talked with Adam... When they partook the earth fell, too, and was no longer in the same state. Adam didn't die right then but became immortal whereas he wasn't before and, then, subject to death. The earth, too. (1 Corinthians discusses the different glories - 15:40-41).

Be kind of a let-down, if one applies the 'one day = one thousand years' principle.

One can read a lot of things a lot of places. As Eve learned, not everyone can be trusted to give you good information.

Could be Greek philosophy; could be all sorts of sources. "Current thinking" along those lines is that the universe must eventually face a "heat death" when all matter and energy are inevitably converted to infrared light.

'Eternal matter', like all old-earth systems, is not derived from scripture, but imposed upon it. Such doctrines won't keep one from being forgiven, but they're analogous to tying one arm behind one's back, usually one's good arm.

You may be thinking there's something to this "matter always was" business, but it's just an assumption. There is no need for time, space, matter, or energy to have always been. Such assumptions actually clutter things up considerably.

As with any investigation of history, I maintain things need to be reconciled and verified. One can go to great lengths to reconcile compromises, but their elements cannot be verified in the first place.

What is your source for this please?

I'm wondering how the cosmic microwave background radiation would be booosted to infrared. That would require quite a lot of energy. As it would for many phemonena already existing in space. Where would the energy come from, and why must this scenario necessarily happen?

Current thinking is actually that the universe will continue to expand until the skies are dark because visible light will not be able to travel fast enough to reach a destination where it could be seen. Current thinking is also that in trillions of years, nothing will exist apart from black holes, and even those will decay. Eventually baryonic matter itself will decay until nothing is left but a quantum stew, infinitely sparse.

No one says this is actually true, because it is speculation, but it's certainly more probable than everything turning into infrared energy.

Jeanie, you're right in a sense about energy being a constant in the universe. Matter can be seen as a kind of "frozen" energy. But then you look into quantum physics and virtual particles, which can become real -- this is weird-sounding stuff but it's been tested in labs and particle accelerators, as well as by observations by cosmologists, for decades. Some scientists have proposed that whole universes could be created by virtual particles popping into existence.

I think there's much more to learn about life, the universe and everything. Rather doubtful myself that the evidence points to it all having been created exactly as it is, 6000 years ago, despite what someone's holy book may say; but you guys are welcome to discuss amongst yourselves here.

What??

LindaLou: I think there's much more to learn about life, the universe and everything. Rather doubtful myself that the evidence points to it all having been created exactly as it is, 6000 years ago, despite what someone's holy book may say; but you guys are welcome to discuss amongst yourselves here.

Actually I believe man has existed here around 6000 years now as we are closing in on the end of that period of our existence. As for the creation itself....I have said before - I don't know how long the materials existed on this earth. But as far as the creation period... Each day was likely at least 1,000 years...we don't really know. So that makes the earth older by at least 7,000 years. The matter the earth was organized from was from materials already in existence....

CTD: "You may be thinking there's something to this "matter always was" business, but it's just an assumption. There is no need for time, space, matter, or energy to have always been. Such assumptions actually clutter things up considerably.

As with any investigation of history, I maintain things need to be reconciled and verified. One can go to great lengths to reconcile compromises, but their elements cannot be verified in the first place."

Actually the matter issue is quite scientific... And I'm not compromising anything in saying that. God has power over the elements....

My source is fairly common knowledge. There are three broad classifications of light: visible, ultraviolet, and infrared. That which has too high a frequency to be seen is ultraviolet. That which has too low a frequency to be seen is infrared. Ain't no 'boosts' involved.

But infrared is only the at the very end of the visible light spectrum, just as unltraviolet is at the opposite end. It isn't the lowest frequency of the electromagnetic spectrum; beyond infrared you have microwaves and radio waves.

As I stated, though, your version of "common knowledge" is different from what the science actually says, as I explained in my previous post. I thought there was a small possibility you might be able to quote a source this time.

As usual, I hold a slightly more eccentric view of creation, but I don't hold to it dogmatically. Both have their points worth pondering.

I do believe that the "Angels" view of Genesis 6 lends itself to an old Earth. This could lead us to the very interesting prophecies concerning the final kingdom of iron and clay:

"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."
(Daniel 2:43)

There are some strange things happening today that could satisfy this allusion to "mingling".

UFO's, Angels, and God's

The following phrase "walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire" certainly opens some interesting doors. It could certainly be a simple literal translation of stones on the mountain, but considering the widened meaning of the Hebrew "walked" in Ezekiel, we could, perhaps, make room here to infer travel among the solar members.

This view could draw some interesting connections between the Cydonian work of Hoagland and modern-day Mason dogma: i.e., The monuments of Mars being related to the same symbology replete in masonic ceremony.

Let no one be drawn into the dogma of panspermia however—the new lie that may be used to draw the final kingdom into servitude and also used to redefine God.

(The following is refering to satan.)

"Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."
(Ezekiel 28:14)

Hey again Russ.

If the words of Genesis 6 seem to be at all indicative of an old Earth then does this mean you accept the idea that the Grand Canyon is indeed as old as geologists claim it is?

I guess what bemuses me about this concept that the Earth is only 6,000 years old is that it means all the clay tablets, scrolls, sarcophogi, etc. from ancient civilizations (that is, the ones predating 4,000 BCE) would have to be frauds. It means much of what my home library regarding numerous ancient peoples is all to be falsified.