Guest blogger Robert T. Pennock is professor of philosophy, computer science, and EEBB at Michigan State University and author of the books Tower of Babel: The Evidence Against the New Creationism and Intelligent Design Creationism and Its Critics: Philosophical, Theological and Scientific Perspectives.
He proudly testified on behalf of antiscience at the Dover, PA farce. The title of his blog article: "Creation of Christian Soldiers a Chilling Sidelight of Darwin Bashing"
Originally Posted by Pennock
...Elsewhere Dembski has written a call to unapologetic apologetics and martyrdom: "[T]his is our calling as Christian apologists, to bear witness to the truth, even to the point of death (be it the death of our bodies or the death of our careers)." To be worthy apologists and to never give in to the ground rules set by the secular academy, Dembski and fellow ID-advocate Jay Wesley Richards wrote, is "perhaps not a martyrdom where we spill our blood (although this too may be required)." (Quoted in Pennock 2006).
As I wrote in a recent op-ed about Expelled and the ID culture wars, it is hard to know how to respond in a civil manner to such ignorant extremism. Let me go further here: Such views (and I do here mean views, not people) do not deserve a civil response. They deserve more than disapproval and ridicule. They deserve the moral outrage of all who are friends of reason and truth.
Did you notice what he considers so dangerous? Martyrs - not just those who die, but those who are willing to sacrifice career or other things for truth. This he calls "ignorant exremism". This he says does not deserve a civil response. Refusal to cave in and go with their program of deceit, even if it means something very tangible, does not deserve a civil response.
What's so terrifying? What's so threatening about a person who will not be cowed or intimidated, even if it costs them their job, etc? I'll tell you exactly what: the Power of such testimony.
Those who seek to keep people in darkness have much to fear indeed. Even now such testimony is at work, and eyes are opening afresh - eyes that may have been clenched tightly shut. Nobody can respect a coward, even if they try, and nobody can help but respect a man of demonstrable principle.
Boy's kinda in a pickle about the uncivil response. Just like all the rest of his kind. Whatcha gonna do, make more martyrs? Sadly, many of them refuse to consider any other course. ...Or maybe not so sadly... The Living God has a few chief loves, and one of them is any excuse to reward! Let us Bless His name forever.
Dark Matter + Dark Energy = Dark Truth
"We find that such evidence demonstrates that the ID argument is dependent upon setting a scientifically unreasonable burden of proof for the theory of evolution." - Judge Jones Kitzmiller case http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Falsify.cfm
"To Compel A Man To Furnish Funds For The Propagation Of Ideas He Disbelieves And Abhors Is Sinful And Tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson
"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?" - Thomas Jefferson
Re: All forms of Martyrdom feared
[Re: CTD]
#53822 10/19/0909:59 AM10/19/0909:59 AM
Thank you for this surprising article, CTD! This man has totally missed the 'HIGH CALLING OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS'!
Ephesians 3:14 -16 "For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man."
~~~~~~~~~~~ HORACE Pitkin, the son of a wealthy merchant, was converted and went to China as a missionary. He wrote to his friends in America, saying, "It will be but a short time till we know definitely whether we can serve him better above or here."
Shortly afterward, a mob stormed the gate of the compound where Pitkin defended the women and children. He was beheaded and his head was offered at the shrine of a heathen god, while his body was thrown into a pit with the bodies of nine Chinese Christians.
Sherwood Eddy, writing about him, said, "Pitkin won more men by his death than he ever could have won by his life." Christ needs people today who are made of martyr stuff!! Dare to take a strong, uncompromising stand for Him!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Thank You, Lord, for the examples of those who have gone before us. Help me to take hold of Your unlimited strength, too."
Billy Graham/Evangelist
Matthew 28:18-20 ~"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, (eleven disciples), saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. GO!-- therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Jim Elliott/ Missionary, and Martyr for Jesus, to the Auca Indians wrote: "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep, To gain what he cannot lose."
YES! Let us bless His Name forever! May we never be ashamed to 'go and tell' what Jesus has done for us, that we might live forever!
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]
Re: All forms of Martyrdom feared
[Re: Abigail]
#53833 10/19/0908:35 PM10/19/0908:35 PM
I had a feeling after getting saved at a Billy Graham event and as I grew and read about the persecutions part of me knew I could be made to make those level of choices. I was about 13.
Re: All forms of Martyrdom feared
[Re: Lauren]
#53841 10/20/0910:09 AM10/20/0910:09 AM
---In 'From Jerusalem to Irian Jaya,' Ruth Tucker writes about Dr. Eleanor Chestnut. After arriving in China in 1893 under the American Presbyterian missions board, Dr. Chestnut built a hospital, using her own money to buy bricks and mortar. The need for her services was so great, she performed surgery in her bathroom until the building was completed.
One operation involved the amputation of a common laborer's leg. Complications arose, and skin grafts were needed. A few days later, another doctor asked Chestnut why she was limping. "Oh, it's nothing," was her terse reply.
Finally, a nurse revealed that the skin graft for the patient, a coolie, came from Dr. Chestnut's own leg, taken with only local anesthetic.
During the Boxer Rebellion of 1905, Dr. Chestnut and four other missionaries were killed by a mob that stormed the hospital.
Jesus said, "'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' " Matthew 25:31-46 ,.. (vs. 40)
From: 1001 Quotes, Illustrations /Edward K Rowell & -------Leadership Journal
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]
Re: All forms of Martyrdom feared
[Re: Abigail]
#53842 10/20/0910:20 AM10/20/0910:20 AM
~~~~The story we're called to tell and live and die by is one of risk confronted, death embraced. What's more, Jesus calls us to walk the narrow way, take up a cross with Him, daily.
It's terribly risky business. Ask that bright company of martyrs that quite recklessly parted with goods, security, and life itself, preferring to be faithful in death rather than safe in life.
--William H. Willimon (Risk, Martydom) 1001 Quotes, & Illustrations/ FROM: Edward K Rowell
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]
Re: All forms of Martyrdom feared
[Re: Lauren]
#53843 10/20/0912:17 PM10/20/0912:17 PM
I'm sorry that I hopped right over your post earlier. It's really great to know that you 'surrendered all for the sake of our Beloved Lord Jesus'.
We are in for some really very tough times. We must 'stay the course, and keep the faith...." JESUS IS LORD! Lauren, please feel welcome to add anything the Lord puts on your heart. We must get the word out.
The spirit of the Anti-Christ abounds!!!!! Help JESUS!
Blessings, Abishag
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]
Re: All forms of Martyrdom feared
[Re: CTD]
#53928 10/26/0903:45 PM10/26/0903:45 PM
I just now found this information regarding "The Deaths of the 12 Apostles" on the internet:
How did the 12 Apostles die?
Summary: The Bible only mentions the deaths of two apostles, James who was put to death by Herod Agrippa I in 44 AD and Judas Iscariot who committed suicide shortly after the death of Christ. The details of the deaths of three of the apostles (John, the Beloved, Bartholomew, and Simon the Canaanite) are not known at all, either by tradition or early historians. The deaths of the other seven apostles are known by tradition or the writings of early Chrirstian historians. According to traditions and the Bible, eight of the Apostles died as Martyrs. At least two of the Apostles, Peter and Andrew were crucified.
Simon surnamed Peter: died 33-34 years after the death of Christ. According to Smith's Bible Dictionary there is "satisfactory evidence that he and Paul were the founders of the church at Rome, and died in that city. The time and manner of the apostle's martyrdom are less certain. According to the early writers, he died at or about the same time with Paul, and in the Neronian persecution, A.D. 67,68. All agree that he was crucified. Origin says that Peter felt himself to be unworthy to be put to death in the same manner as his Master, and was therefore, at his own request, crucified with his head downward."
James the son of Zebedee: He was put to death by Herod Agrippa I shortly before the day of the Passover, in the year 44 or about 11 years after the death of Christ. From Acts 12:1-2.
John: No death date given by early writers. Death date is by conjecture only and is variously assigned as being between 89 AD to 120 AD.
Andrew: No accurate death given. A variety of traditions say he preached in Schthia, in Greece, in Asia Minor and Thrace. He is reported to have been crucified at Patrae in Achaia.
Phillip: Again, the Bible does not say when he died nor do we have accurate information. According to tradition he preached in Phrygia, and died at Hierapolis.
Bartholomen: There is no information concerning his death, not even by tradition.
Matthew: He must have lived many years as an apostle, since he was the author of the Gospel of Matthew which was written at least twenty years after the death of Christ. There is reason to believe that he stayed for fifteen years at Jerusalem, after which he went as missionary to the Persians, Parthians and Medes. There is a legend that he died a martyr in Ethiopia.
Thomas: The earlier traditions, as believed in the fourth century, say he preached in Parthia or Persia, and was finally buried at Edessa. The later traditions carry him farther east. His martydom whether in Persia or India, is said to have been by a lance, and is commemorated by the Latin Chruch on December 21 the Greek Church on October 6, and by the Indians on July 1.
James Alpheus: We know he lived at least five years after the death of Christ because of mentions in the Bible. According to tradition, James son of Alpheus was thrown down from the temple by the scribes and Pharisees; he was then stoned, and his brains dashed out with a fuller's club.
Simon the Canaanite--No information either in the Bible or by tradition.
Jude (Thaddeus)- acording to tradition Jude taught in Armenia, Syria and Persia where he was martyred. Tradition tells us he was buried in Kara Kalisa in what is now Iran.
Judas Iscariot: Shortly after death of Christ Judas killed himself. According to the Bible he hanged himself. (Matthew 27:5) at Aceldama, on the southern slope of the valley of Hinnom, near Jerusalem, and in the act he fell down a precipice and was dashed into pieces. ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This information comes to us from Bill and Margaret Agard <Agards.com>
Blessings, Abishag / JESUS IS LORD!--Jesus lives today!
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]
New MicroMartyr
[Re: CTD]
#53959 10/29/0902:11 AM10/29/0902:11 AM
Looks like Home Depot's got themselves a microMartyr on their hands.
Quote
Last month, when Trevor Keezer started bringing his Bible to work, Keezer says his manager confronted him about the ["One nation under God, indivisible"] button. "That's when I was told it had to come off or I would be sent home. So they sent me home for six straight days without pay. And then they terminated me."
This is just the kind of thing that I intended to talk about in the O.P. This is what they fear, and are mad to stamp out; for if they can so intimidate Christians that none are willing to make the small "sacrifices", it's a safe bet none will be willing to make the big ones either.
I've been reading some of the blogs, and in typical pretend-to-be-stupid style, all who support the Depot are pretending it's about the dress code. Nobody cared a bit about the pin until they found out the young man was a believer.
Neither do the freaks manage a very convincing job pretending to be stupid. Many of the comments are anti-God and anti-Christian; everyone knows. It's no secret.
Of course in today's America, it is two strikes against a person if they love both God and country.
There is boycott talk, and the counter-talk is predictably lame: "Lowe's is just as bad". Well, that remains to be seen. If they somehow manage to be just as anti-American and anti-God, maybe - just maybe - other retailers exist. This is really a bluff at claiming total victory: "We control it all". I don't think they do, just yet.
As much as I support efforts to boycott this crew, it is unrealistic to expect too much. Satan has proven capable of supplying money to those who serve him. It may be they won't miss the money at all. That doesn't make it futile, by any means; just don't expect too much direct worldly impact. It's still high time people quit letting all this stuff "slide".
Dark Matter + Dark Energy = Dark Truth
"We find that such evidence demonstrates that the ID argument is dependent upon setting a scientifically unreasonable burden of proof for the theory of evolution." - Judge Jones Kitzmiller case http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Falsify.cfm
"To Compel A Man To Furnish Funds For The Propagation Of Ideas He Disbelieves And Abhors Is Sinful And Tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson
"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?" - Thomas Jefferson
Re: New MicroMartyr
[Re: CTD]
#53985 10/29/0908:14 PM10/29/0908:14 PM
As you say " Martyrs are feared " - not just those who die, but those who are willing to sacrifice career or other things for truth.
Thats why instead of bringing things into the light.. They want things to remain in the dark.. Like suppressing Freedom of Speech with support for a Global Law against Blasphemy. Which will be used of course against Christians though they will say it won't.. But of course it will as thats where this world is headed.
Yes... Freedom Calls. Do you recognize her, when she calls you? True freedom brings peace of mind. Freedom brings happiness. Seek her and hang on to her. Freedom is a gift from God.
In this world, that freedom is being taken away and has already been taken away for many believers and for secret believers who I believe are mostly women and men too.. Expecially in persecuted nations in this world today. But God reads hearts so God knows who truly loves Him. To worship freely and to be able to speak freely with the freedom of speech... Is a gift, but one that thoses who fear freedom want to take away from the rest of the world as well as in their own country. Many people already paying that cost at the hands of others in this world today. You know it.
The Cost Of Discipleship. John 15:18-16:4
We are truly in the latter days. You can just see it coming & thoses who truly care about it should wake up and support the people who are sacrificing their lives everyday for others in this world. Who are shedding tears, everyday. We have become to complacent with our freedoms that we have taken for granted in this world, as in the recent past. While others in this world have not expirenced the freedoms that we have had. We've been lucky in the freedoms we have had and whatever freedoms we have left on this planet as is.. Until this system of things as it is now comes to an end. But it's all an illusion in this world system now anyway as we do live in a fallen world as is. Getting so close to the end of this system. You can just feel it.
Re: New MicroMartyr
[Re: Lynnmn]
#58445 08/01/1012:55 PM08/01/1012:55 PM
According to the Liberty Institute, who is representing the two employees, said that after work hours, the pair was praying over the cubicle of a co-worker with whom they'd been having trouble. They were discovered and the university fired them saying the act was a form of harassment.
Are these people pathetic or what?
I must remember to pray for them, right?
Dark Matter + Dark Energy = Dark Truth
"We find that such evidence demonstrates that the ID argument is dependent upon setting a scientifically unreasonable burden of proof for the theory of evolution." - Judge Jones Kitzmiller case http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Falsify.cfm
"To Compel A Man To Furnish Funds For The Propagation Of Ideas He Disbelieves And Abhors Is Sinful And Tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson
"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?" - Thomas Jefferson
Re: New MicroMartyr
[Re: CTD]
#58446 08/01/1001:16 PM08/01/1001:16 PM
Students from Wickenburg Christian Academy (in Arizona) were on a field trip to visit the Supreme Court and decided to mark the occassion with prayer. According to the article, the group of students and their teacher "simply circled... bowed their heads and quietly prayed." Then, a police officer for the Supreme Court building "interrupted them, told them that what they were doing was violating a federal statute and said they had to take their prayer elsewhere."
"We find that such evidence demonstrates that the ID argument is dependent upon setting a scientifically unreasonable burden of proof for the theory of evolution." - Judge Jones Kitzmiller case http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Falsify.cfm
"To Compel A Man To Furnish Funds For The Propagation Of Ideas He Disbelieves And Abhors Is Sinful And Tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson
"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?" - Thomas Jefferson
Re: New MicroMartyr
[Re: CTD]
#58740 08/20/1012:48 AM08/20/1012:48 AM
"We find that such evidence demonstrates that the ID argument is dependent upon setting a scientifically unreasonable burden of proof for the theory of evolution." - Judge Jones Kitzmiller case http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Falsify.cfm
"To Compel A Man To Furnish Funds For The Propagation Of Ideas He Disbelieves And Abhors Is Sinful And Tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson
"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?" - Thomas Jefferson
Re: All forms of Martyrdom feared
[Re: CTD]
#58741 08/20/1012:53 AM08/20/1012:53 AM
As I wrote in a recent op-ed about Expelled and the ID culture wars, it is hard to know how to respond in a civil manner to such ignorant extremism. Let me go further here: Such views (and I do here mean views, not people) do not deserve a civil response. They deserve more than disapproval and ridicule. They deserve the moral outrage of all who are friends of reason and truth.
Oh no. I just reviewed it myself. "Moral outrage," he says? How is that accomplished? The "amoral" have no ammo.
Last edited by CTD; 08/20/1012:53 AM.
Dark Matter + Dark Energy = Dark Truth
"We find that such evidence demonstrates that the ID argument is dependent upon setting a scientifically unreasonable burden of proof for the theory of evolution." - Judge Jones Kitzmiller case http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Falsify.cfm
"To Compel A Man To Furnish Funds For The Propagation Of Ideas He Disbelieves And Abhors Is Sinful And Tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson
"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?" - Thomas Jefferson
Re: All forms of Martyrdom feared/..yet Jesus calls us 'blessed'
[Re: CTD]
#58786 08/24/1012:29 PM08/24/1012:29 PM
'The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.' by: Tertullisn
---- Jesus tells us, "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteouness' sake: for their's is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:10
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." Mt. 5:11
"..If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you: if they have kept my saying they will keep your's also." John 15:20 --
Jesus may not deliver us FROM persecution, but He will always be with us as we go through it. His GRACE will carry us through. Thanks be to God who gives us the VICTORY! JESUS!
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]
Re: All forms of Martyrdom feared
[Re: CTD]
#59843 10/29/1006:08 PM10/29/1006:08 PM
When the various victims of Nazis were being murdered in concentration camps one wonders if they wondered where it all began. It did not begin with being thrown into concentration camps; it began with “little things.” It began with “little things” about which no one thought much. “Little things” about which if anyone complained they may have been called paranoid or excessively sensitive. Yet, the “little things” grew and grew and grew into huge monstrous things which devoured 12,000,000 human beings...
A civil rights complaint has been filed against a woman in Grand Rapids, Mich., who posted an advertisement at her church last July seeking a Christian roommate.
(originally reported by FoxNews)
What's next with these cowards? Depends on how much they get away with, obviously. They're no different than any other undisciplined children.
Dark Matter + Dark Energy = Dark Truth
"We find that such evidence demonstrates that the ID argument is dependent upon setting a scientifically unreasonable burden of proof for the theory of evolution." - Judge Jones Kitzmiller case http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Falsify.cfm
"To Compel A Man To Furnish Funds For The Propagation Of Ideas He Disbelieves And Abhors Is Sinful And Tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson
"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?" - Thomas Jefferson
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