News you won't see in controlled mainstream media.

Just wondering if people here had any particular favourites, and what exactly they've said. I've sort of been introduced to Kent Hovind. I've seen comments attributed to him around the forum. Does anyone want to discuss some of those here? I understand he's controversial even in creationist circles.

I don't know, there are so many good ones

Pat Buchanan:
Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free.
Speech to the Christian Coalition, September 1993

David Chilton:
The god of Judaism is the devil. The Jew will not be recognized by God as one of His chosen people until he abandons his demonic religion and returns to the faith of his fathers - the faith which embraces Jesus Christ and His Gospel.
The Days of Vengeance: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation (1984)

Ann Coulter:
We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war.
Newspaper Column, September 2001.

Tom DeLay:
Ladies and gentlemen, Christianity offers the only viable, reasonable, definitive answer to the questions of 'Where did I come from?' 'Why am I here?' 'Where am I going?' 'Does life have any meaningful purpose?' Only Christianity offers a way to understand that physical and moral border. Only Christianity offers a comprehensive worldview that covers all areas of life and thought, every aspect of creation. Only Christianity offers a way to live in response to the realities that we find in this world -- only Christianity.
House Majority Whip Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) at the First Baptist Church of Pearland, Texas, on April 12, 2002

Gary DeMar:
The long term goal [is] the execution of abortionists and parents who hire them. If we argue that abortion is murder, then we must call for the death penalty.
Ruler of the Nations (1987)

Jerry Falwell:
I do not believe the homosexual community deserves minority status. One's misbehavior does not qualify him or her for minority status. Blacks, Hispanics, women, etc. are God-ordained minorities who do indeed deserve minority status.
USA Today. Quoted from: The Religious Freedom Coalition.

Jerry Falwell:
If we are going to save America and evangelize the world, we cannot accommodate secular philosophies that are diametrically opposed to Christian truth.
"Moral Majority Report," September, 1984.

Jerry Falwell:
The decline in American pride, patriotism, and piety can be directly attributed to the extensive reading of so-called 'science fiction' by our young people. This poisonous rot about creatures not of God's making, societies of 'aliens' without a good Christian among them, and raw sex between unhuman beings with three heads and God alone knows what sort of reproductive apparatus keeps our young people from realizing the true will of God.
"Can Our Young People Find God in the Pages of Trashy Magazines? No, Of Course Not!" Reader's Digest, Aug. 1985: p142-157.

Jerry Falwell:
I think Mohammed was a terrorist. He - I read enough of the history of his life written by both Muslims and – and - non-Muslims, that he was a - a violent man, a man of war. And I do believe that - Jesus set the example for love, as did Moses. And I think that Mohammed set an opposite example.
60 Minutes, October 6, 2002

Jeff Fugate:
If you don't want a Christian nation, then go to one of the many nations that are heathen already, rather than perverting ours.
You're welcome to come, but leave your religions, your bibles, all your other things back where you came from.
Islam and America are opposites. They hate us. They want to kill us. I'm not anti-Jewish or anti-Catholic. I'm anti-Islam because that religion right there is anti-American.
Jeff Fugate, pastor of Clays Mill Road Baptist Church, Lexington, KY, July 3, 2002.

Jerry Falwell:
Most American children do not know that this is a Christian nation... [O]ur Constitution won't work in Russia, won't work in Haiti, won't work in Iraq. It only works where the people believe in the Christ of the Bible. The United States of America.
"Sunday Live with Jerry Falwell," July 23, 1995

D. James Kennedy:
This is our land. This is our world. This is our heritage, and with God's help, we shall reclaim this nation for Jesus Christ. And no power on earth can stop us.
Character & Destiny: A Nation in Search of Its Soul (1994)

Francis J. Lally:
The Church doesn't believe in book-burning, but it believes in restricting the use of dangerous books among those whose minds are unprepared for them.
Francis J. Lally, American Roman Catholic Monsignor. Interview with Mike Wallace, 1958.

Francis J. Lally:
The Church has through the centuries, understood that ideas are really more dangerous than other weapons. Their use should be restricted.
Francis J. Lally, American Roman Catholic Monsignor. Interview with Mike Wallace, 1958.

Joseph Morecraft:
Nobody has the right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. And therefore the state does not have the responsibility to defend anybody's pseudo-right to worship an idol.
Rev. Joseph Morecraft, Chalcedon Presbyterian Church, "Biblical Role of Civil Government" speech delivered on August 21, 1993 at the Biblical Worldview and Christian Education Conference.

Gary North:
So let us be blunt about it: We must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will be get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God.
"The Intellectual Schizophrenia of the New Christian Right" in Christianity and Civilization: The Failure of the American Baptist Culture, No. 1 (Spring, 1982), p. 25.

Gary North:
This is God's world, not Satan's. Christians are the lawful heirs, not non-Christians.
Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism (1989)

Gary North:
The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant - baptism and holy communion - must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel.
Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism (1989)

Bailey Smith:
With all due respect to those dear people, my friend, God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew.
Bailey Smith, a founder of Pat Robertson's Christian Coalition, speaking during a Religious Roundtable briefing in Dallas, Texas, on June 26, 1994

Jimmy Swaggart:
The Media is ruled by Satan. But yet I wonder if many Christians fully understand that. Also, will they believe what the Media says, considering that its aim is to steal, kill, and destroy?
The Evangelist, January 1988

Randall Terry:
What this is coming down to is who runs the country. It's us against them. It's the good guys versus the bad guys. It's the God-fearing people against the pagans, and some of the pagans are going to church.
Speech in Jackson, Mississippi, April 1992

Randall Terry:
I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism.
The News Sentinel, (Fort Wayne, Indiana), August 16, 1993.

Randall Terry:
The next step, if at all humanly possible (and in 90% of the cases it is), it is to get our children out of the humanistic, brianwashing institution called `public education.' Frankly, it is a mixture of insanity and irresponsibility to turn our children over to our adversaries and their curriculum in a God-less education system (i.e., a system that teaches history and science without God).
Why Does a Nice Guy Like Me Keep Getting Thrown in Jail? (1993)

Randall Terry:
America is under the judgment of God. And if we are ever going to rebuild this country, it must be under God's law. Our goal must be simple: We must have a Christian nation built on God's law, on the Ten Commandments. No apologies.
Speech to "Cities of Refuge" campaign, Willoughby Hills, Ohio, July, 1993.

Randall Terry:
When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we'll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed.
Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue. Speech before the U.S. Taxpayers Alliance on doctors who perform abortions. August 8, 1995

Jerry Vines:
Islam was founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives, the last one of which was a 9-year-old girl. And I will tell you Allah is not Jehovah either. Jehovah’s not going to turn you into a terrorist that’ll try to bomb people and take the lives of thousands and thousands of people.
Rev. Jerry Vines, former President of the Southern Baptist Convention, speaking at the June 2002 SBC convention.

James Watt:
My responsibility is to follow the Scriptures which call upon us to occupy the land until Jesus returns.
James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Rondald Reagan. Washington Post, May 24, 1981.

James Watt:
We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand.
James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Rondald Reagan. Washington Post, May 24, 1981.

Sheesh, I'm glad I emigrated.

I was hoping to talk about some of these claims people have come out with on the forum, like this $25,000 "challenge" for someone to "prove" evolution, but this in a way is far more sinister and depressing. Yes it's a good illustration of the problems with fundamentalism that I've talked about.

And these guys really don't have much of a sense of humour do they?

I personally think the measure of a person's religion should be how they treat others who are not members of that religion. Even if you think they are wrong or misguided, you show your true worth by your compassion for them as fellow humans. I thought this was one thing the Bible taught, to love your neighbour as yourself? Um, as long as he/she is not homosexual, Jewish, liberal, (inesert any other "sinner" or "blasphemer" you choose)? There are faiths that recognise members of other faiths as being on their own path to the truth. You don't tend to hear these sorts of things coming from them.

Land of the free? Who's kidding who?

Interestingly, it's almost always the monotheistic religions which espouse these sorts of intolerant, supremist beliefs. I wonder why that is.

Yes, Hindus tend to be very tolerant people in my experience. I think they see other gods and prophets as avatars, just like many of the figures in their own pantheon.

BTW I live in a city that is over 20% Asian, and the largest Diwali festival in the world outside of India is held here every year. This is truly a multicultural place, and people tend to get along. We haven't experienced any of the race riots that have occasionally broken out in other areas of Britain.

Anyway, Hovind is a real character - not to mention a criminal. His ascertations that "if evolution were true random animals would spawn from others" evinces that he has spent more time criticising evolution than trying to understand its principles (and I'm not even trying to defend evolution - just pointing out his juvenile strategies.) I mean honestly, if you want to stand against something, learn about it first for chrissake!

In fact, he constantly demonstrates his misinformation on subjects. He's so full of Godwin's Law and hyperbole. I'm not about to defend the actions of Hitler but I just get so sick of people citing he was a self-pronounced atheist in order to defend their own Christian arguments when this simply was not the case.


Hovind really is very much the Paris Hilton of bible-thumpers.

Like I said a long time ago on these related threads, these types of debates always some down to a discussion about who you believe.

Deadly Immunity

New Age Bible Versions

Hovind: Lies In The Textbooks

The Conspiracy Thread

The Conspiracy Thread

The Sons of God and Biblical Prophecy, Michael Heiser

The Lincoln Assassination and the Jesuit Connection, Jon Eric Phelps (MP3)

Biblical Sorcery and Modern Drugs

...but outside are sorcerers...

...they did not repent of their medication...

...for by your medication were all the nations deceived.

Kennedy On Secret Societies

Bush Nazi Family Ties

Loose Change

The Bar Code and the Mark of the Beast

Chemtrail Centrail Report


A word to the wise.

Good strategy, ignore the stupidity of some of your christian leaders that get major air time in the US and start spamming abstract videos/info with NO FACTS about conspiracy theories which, by the way, have nothing to do with the thread.

Did you even read the thread?

No, not all of it. I only have time to read the last few posts.

Have you read the thread and other related threads?

I ask you this because if you had, you would have seen where I have stated that most so-called Christians leaders are not Christian at all. Current-day Christianity is replete with imposters.

To understand Christ and His teachings, you have to understand the Bible.

Also, if you have a specific question, I'll seriously consider answering it for you.

Finally, you seem to have a vicious hatred for a belief system that you know nothing about. Isn't judging something before knowing the facts considered prejudice?

Know yourself.

Well these people you say are not "christian" are getting major airtime and people are listening to them. What, if they don't follow your exact belief system they are not part of your religion?

Also I am still curious as to why you spam your list of conspiracy theories in this thread, it's like the thread asking what is 2 plus 2 equal to and you answer "bananas"

The question really is:

Is there evidence to support the position that the Bible is what it claims to be?

The conspiracy theories—if studied—will eventually lead you to an understanding of Bible prophecy.

You can believe what you want, but I want you to know that I've done my homework and have put the pieces of the puzzle together and now I clearly understand world events as well as know vital facts about the future, thanks to the Bible.

Most modern-day "Christians" are not in line with the Bible, so how can they be called Christians? Yet they are.

"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

—Matthew 24:7-15


The choice is yours.

None of this is really answering the question I put at the beginning of this thread. I'd like to discuss some specific claims made by creationist leaders like Hovind. You recommended him to me, Russ, but I'll discuss anyone you like. Let's get to the core of what a creationist believes, and what their grounds are for rejecting evolution -- presumably that is one of the reasons this area of the forum exists? Please let's start with a few examples at a time, it's easier to discuss things in detail that way.

Ken Ham and Henry Morris are my favorite Creationists. They are with Inst for Creation Research.

And In my opinion Ann Coulter as with many others on the list above I wouldn't call Christians, or at least they don't act like Christians.
just my2 cents.

What are some of the things they say?

Gosh Linda I'd love to sit and talk all day about Creation, problem is my brain does not want to function. Ever since the metals took over I am unable to be social, think deeply about things, comprehend, etc.....

I trust the Bible for what it says and as far as I have researched the creation story is totally in line with what evidence they have found.
Life wouldn't have any purpose to me if evolution was true, this is why I am still alive.
I am suffering terribly with metals as well as many others here on this forum but Christ suffered more than we could ever imagined. He suffered and died for a crime He did not commit and did it all for us! I owe everything I have to Him! I trust that His Word is true.


Sorry I can't answer your questions. I pray you get the answers you seek.
Oh and John Whitcomb is another great Creationist, he's got a lot of scientific stuff too.

You probably have not seen most of the other posts I've written here. I'll be very honest with you: because of so many of the creationist claims on this forum, which tended to spring up all over the mercury board while I was talking there, I went and learned more about this. I couldn't understand how anyone could reject most of what the entire body of science has learned and choose to believe that events in the Book of Genesis are literally true. I am now more familiar with what creationist leaders tell their audiences and I can quite confidently accuse them of twisting facts, outright lies, and almost always being unwilling to admit when they have made a mistake. I was hoping to discuss some of these specific claims they make with anyone here who was willing but strangely no one seems to want to defend what they have said. I would say it's because it's simply indefensible.

So no, I'm not looking for answers from these men (they all seem to be men) as such, unless the answers be why they are so willing to lead so many people down blind alleys of ignorance and superstition.

That's not to say I feel this way about the Christian religion or the people who follow it. It's how I feel about the black and white thinking that either events in Genesis are literally true, or there is no God/no religion/no hope. A lot of people accept evolution and believe that God is subtly guiding it. Accepting science doesn't automatically mean that a person also becomes an atheist.

I hear what you are saying about your state of mind and I don't want to feel responsible for upsetting you at such a difficult time. I am on this thread to explain evolutionist ideas and terms and to take on any challenges to debate ideas with creationists. I guess all I can ask on this particular thread is that if this would upset you, please don't read. If I meet you on the mercury forum I will be there to support you with that, no mention of religion (unless other people bring it up as they sometimes tend to do).

Regards,
Linda.

I stumbled upon a useful statement both sides of the argument could benefit from here which reads:


If you're hoping to find solid evidence against evolution, Linda, I think you'll be sorely disappointed time and time again.

I know . . . but I haven't read a single creationist claim so far, purporting to be scientific, that can't be refuted. I remember when I first joined the amalgam forum, hearing all this stuff. "How come no one has collected the $250,000 Kent Hovind says he'll pay to anyone who can prove evolution?" "There are serious flaws with radiometric dating." "x,y,z cannot have evolved because they are irreducibly complex." "Hitler based his views on Darwinism." "The odds of life forming are incredibly small." "Why don't we see fish changing into reptiles, reptiles into birds, etc today?" Now that I'm actually willing to discuss these things, there's no one around to do so. Hmmmm.

Do you know what else I've found? Most, if not all, of this stuff, comes from books, lectures, etc given by creationist leaders. If you challenge it, the person doesn't know what to say because they were just parroting something they'd read. Claythrow would probably not have mentioned Lucy several times the way she did if she'd been aware that this argument was debunked years ago.

I was wondering if I should take a chunk of the copy-and-paste texts given here by Russ and Claythrow and refute them point by point. Not difficult to do guys. But I don't know who would want to take the time to read it, probably not the people I'd be writing it for, and it would take up a lot of time. Still, maybe I will, if no one else here wants to talk . . .

Really though, I would honestly like to know -- does ANYONE here believe Noah and the flood and the ark, that the fossil record was laid down at this time, etc? Here's my own argument from incredulity. If someone here does believe it, can you give some reasons why?

That is really a really offensive position. Why don't you just say the bible is stupid and be done with it. Other people browsing this forum don't need your endless comments about how stupid their beliefs are.

Extremely offensive. To Christians, to Jews, to Muslims and who knows how many others.

Hypocryte

No, I'm just asking if anyone believes this, and if so, why. I don't see how it's any more offensive than a creationist saying they are incredulous about evolution because what use is half an eye, etc. Also, most Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc do not believe in creationism so I don't see how this is offensive to them. BTW saying you are personally offended by a question is not answering the question, and it's a bit of a generalisation to assume that this means I think the whole Bible is stupid. What I'd honestly like to know is how people reconcile creationist beliefs with the concrete evidence that exists to the contrary. I've seen a lot of dodging, rhetoric, misquoting, misinformation and lies from the "leaders" in this field but as Pwcca said, no acutal evidence that their position is right and science is wrong.

Get a dictionary. Good day to you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Asking that someone attempt to prove that Noah’s Arc really existed or if it was (more likely) merely a fable used to teach valuable lessons to children is offensive to you? Come on now, let’s be fair. Next you’re going to ask that this thread be deleted because you are offended, right? But then the board administrator, Russ Tanner, will have to delete his own posts where he’s said evolution is absurd – a comment which I don’t find offensive even if I don’t agree with it. I also don’t find it particularly offensive when people think I’m going to a Christian Hell for being a non-Christian pagan; I simply find this amusing instead.


Because she didn’t say the bible was stupid nor did she come even remotely close to suggesting as much. I don’t want to speak for you, Linda, but it sounds to me like you’re trying to ascertain if people here believe every tale within the bible truly happened (even the most fantastical ones) or if most people simply accept a lot of it as story tales and fables used to teach important lessons. Questioning a thing does not mean one thinks that thing to be stupid.


When someone, anyone, on this forum describes a belief system as stupid, believe me I’ll be the first one complaining. However, I wholeheartedly encourage others to discuss what they agree with and what they disagree with, or what parts of a belief system they find faulty and seek answers for. This is the very nature of a discussion board, after all. To think otherwise is to wish all discussion boards out of existence.

You could always try entering the debate against Linda with answers, rather than simply being offended at inoffensive statements.