News you won't see in controlled mainstream media.

The ammount of supplements recommended in this forum is staggering. I start to wonder if aside from a placebo effect, anyone has improved with them?

I tried pretty much most of the anti candida/parasite supplements and the only thing that worked were prescribed medicine such as diflucan and mebendazole

I don't know why so many people keep recommending supplements that have a very good chance of not working, or too many people here are just very rich and can afford to shell out hundreds of dollars on natural supplements

All power to people if they find other ways that can help them before resorting to something stronger. I have heard people have horrific results from antifungals such as diflucan (liver), no way would I recommend the stuff. If it's helped you, great.

Diet helped me, I recommend what helps me. I don't always know whether it will do the same for someone else though. But I've also been messed up by other stuff (nystatin was too much for me and caused vomiting). I always think the best place to start is diet and natural supplements in respect to candida, and go from there. If it's an extreme case, someone may need a stronger antifungal. But surely it's best to start with basics and go from there.

I don't have hardly any money at all, I do what I can with what I have. basic supplements is all I can manage. I stick with diet mainly because it doesn't cause such a hole in my wallet. Outside of that, I can only really get the basics like vitamin C, E and selenium and zinc maybe. Even then it's hard. Personally for me without diet, the other stuff is a bit pointless, it only complements dietry efforts. RIght now I cannot afford a thing, so it's just diet I rely upon, other than vitamin C. That is IT. I have admittedly just done a parasite cleanse, but I am not someone who can afford a whole pile of stuff all at once, nor could I sustain that!

you say you don't know why people keep recommending supplements that have a pretty good chance of not working....well they may have a pretty good chance of complementing too. .

I think people can make up their own mind which method they want to try. I don't see the problem with supplementary recommendations, but do agree it can become excessive and certainly overwhelming for anybody on a limited income.

I remember on one forum, the owner recommends eating coconut oil (tablespoons of the stuff) until you reach your quota that day. I was STUNNED and everybody was doing this and I thought "how the heck can you afford to do this?" For me to fork out for coconut oil in itself was stretching it, bu tthen going through it at the rate of knots by consuming it by the tablespoon daily was ridiculous. I just opted out.

I think people should do what they can under their own personal circumstances. I remember I jumped in too quick and used an antifungal (natural too) and I caused such a lethal die off effect that I was very very ill for many months following this. I had to then fork out for chelation to try and undo the damage. The antifungal acts different than simply starving yeast out by diet and it killed so much yeast in a small space of time, split the cell walls open and in doing so, not only released yeast toxins, but any metal contained.

I could not improve until I used DMSA to get the metals out (very expensive stuff). In fact, I have read that it is not only foolish but very dangerous to use strong antifungals in anybody who is metal toxic. They have also proven this can occur by testing urine during antifungal use and seeing the increase in metals.

I don't know how true that is in particular, but I do know what happened to me personally and it was devastating.

that is a good question : some people may need more than others just to function , as for myself I am slowly lowering the ones that I am on now as my health improves ,total I take 7 suppliments daily , down from 12 in the begining ,eventually I will only need 5 , that is my goal .

the trick is to find the ones that you feel are really helping you and slowly remove the ones that are questionable till you are at bare minimum

a good multi vitamin will contain most of the vitamins and minerals that most people need , it's good to consoidate many suppliments into just one and makes a big difference on the wallet too.

I often ask myself if all the supplements I take are necessary? I have been on a heavy duty supplement regime for 4 months now. But I have been healing and gradually getting better in that time…………….so I am loath to stop, just in case I get sicker again. I am healing for many different reasons and supplements is just one of the reasons. When I am feeling consistently better I will reduce the supplements. I am lucky enough that money is not an issue for me.

Currently I am taking 19 different supplements. My diet is very good too. I feel these are all helping me, if I didn’t I would not waste the time, energy and money on them all.

Hi Kriminal. This is a good question, but what supplements work for you is quite individual. I also have quite a lot of supplements, some more useless than the other, but I can't say anything is completely useless.

Anti-oxidants like C and E kill candida, I know this because I start to salivate more when taking them. I do not value this synthetic form of C (ascorbic acid) highly though, small amounts is enough, the E I get from vegetable oil. Synthetic E is also bad.
Strong vit B complex, and too much selenium is a no-no for people with thyroid OK, but adrenals moderately messed like me, while those with low thyroid will benefit from these quite much because they make thyroid hormone conversion better (T4,T3).

Like Bex, I'm too afraid to damage my liver from anti-fungals, so I can't recommend these either.

For those with a low load of mercury (based on how many fillings you have had), DMSA will not be so helpful, so you can skip it in some cases (I did).

For those with high in candida, ALA + molybdenum + other candida toxin helpers will probably be the best alternative to detox with, if you don't use anti-fungals.

Those who are deeply in the swamp will have to start it out slowly by supplementing with glutathione increasing products, like whey protein and/or liposomal glutathione (which is expensive).

Some other useful helpers: CoQ10 for more energy, magnesium for a restless and jumpy heart (this is a common problem, and helped me very much), zinc as a general aid and to get hair grow faster back, calcium + magnesium supplement for getting enough calcium when on an anti-candida diet.

If adrenals and thyroid are badly affected you need to take some adrenal and thyroid hormones to feel better.

I'm no big fan of megadosing, it's unlikely that megadosing e.g. ascorbic acid or zinc will bring better results than staying in the ordinary dose ranges, so the supplements will last a long time this way.

I know that using only anti-fungals *can* be a quick way out for someone, but it will not work for everyone, and it has high risks associated (those with a bad liver function can't even consider using systemic anti-fungals). For those who want natural anti-fungals: garlic, grapefruit seed extract is a possibility. There is no placebo with garlic at least for me: I got once a huge die-off from a single clove of garlic that I felt all over the place.

For those with a bad liver need to consider using milk thistle, NAC etc. to try to improve its function.

what would the high risks of antifungals be? Are natural antifungals like GSE better? Is the risk from the die-off or from the drug?

Hi Bg.

The risks associated with synthetic anti-fungals are liver damage and heart attack. These drugs are usually toxic to the liver, and of course the candida toxins from a severe die-off reaction can be damaging to the liver. Natural anti-fungals are usually not toxic to the liver and the die-off is often more limited.

You should also know that some people can even get elevated liver enzymes from starting an anti-candida alone. I think everyone who has lots of candida gets this more or less, so you can understand that one wants to go slowly to avoid stressing the liver too much. Elevated liver enzymes do not yet necessarily mean damage, but at least you get a hint that the liver is stressed.

Also, if you manage to kill of your yeast quickly, the situation won't last for a long time, unless you also have a good immune system that can keep the situation under control. Backing up your system with nutrients and vitamins and other stuff will at least ensure that the yeast doesn't come back again.

I personally favor the idea of killing the yeast by boosting glutathione, because then you let your immune system do the work, and it is not selective about the candida species it kills, it kills them all. With anti-fungals you always have the problem that the fungi develop a resistance to some of your anti-fungals, and that your anti-fungal can be selective in what species it kills.

pgm I'm afraid I have to disagree with you about the vitamin C. Have you looked into the work of Linus Pauling? When the Mayo Clinic attempted to replicate his vitamin C experiments with cancer patients but didn't copy his protocols, and then decared vitamin C is useless in large doses, his reputation was sadly trashed. He was a brilliant man with a lot of good ideas and it's only now that these are slowly being re-addressed.

Pauling recommended 3-10 grams of ascorbic acid -- the plain old cheap stuff, doesn't have to contain flavanoids or anything -- per day, for healthy people. More for people who are ill. We know that a few million years ago, human ancestors lost the gene that manufactures vitamin C for them; presumably they were able to carry on getting enough from their environment. That's next to impossible for anyone now for a vartiety of reasons, and Pauling reckoned that most of the population has subclinical scurvy. Other animals make several grams of their own vitamin C a day, and why would humans likely be any different?

"Live Longer and Feel Better" by Linus Pauling -- one of the first natural health books recommended to me. That's probably why I've got a fondness for this vitamin. He makes a good case for it being vitally important and fortunately it doesn't tend to be an expensive supplement.

As far as diet and other supplements, I can say this. They erased some of the more troubling mercury symptoms I had. When I started them, my early-evening tiredness/early-morning waking went away. I kept on an even keel. The sleep problems only came back when I had my amalgams out. I feel noticeably worse when I tinker with my diet or don't take my supplements. Maybe the thing to keep in mind here is that supplements don't work like pharmaceuticals. They also work in synergy, Sometimes it helps to have a naturopath recommend what would be best for you, based on your personal circumstances. I was fortunate to have this done for me. I wouldn't have got here by guessing on my own.

There are some general ones that most everyone is deficient in, and I always recommend those; they include vitamin C, magnesium, and fish oil. But like Bex said, the first and foremost source of nutrition is your diet. Supplements are complementary to it.

Hope this helps <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Linda , I agree completely,

essential fats ,
magnesium,
and Vitamin C
and good quality protein.
and water.

I believe these supplements and a healthy diet of fresh organic vegetables and fruit and animal protein
have salvaged my health.

Vitamin C is so important.
I think everyone can benefit from some extra vitamin C.


By the way, Linda, did you know that Patrick Holford was a student of Linus Pauling?I am going to try and find that book
that you mentioned.

Hi Bex, I know the group that you are talking of. So although you do not eat coconut oil do you still try and stick to the 'ratios'? Are you still eating high fat?

Hi cmlyon, no I don't stick to the ratios really, I just eat what I feel comfortable eating. Something about tablespoons of coconut oil all day long doesn't sound quite natural to me....just doesn't sound right. Though I like the dietry advice, I am just not ok with gobbling down loads of fat so I can reach the quota.

I try and have enough butter and I eat fat with the meat and do ok like that and add olive oil to salads etc, and have fish oil sometimes, but that's all I do.

I also do not have the money to do what is suggested anyway and going through piles of butter isn't fair on the person I live with. Dairy food has gone up to almost double here, so though I am liberal with it, I'm not totally excessive.

But yes I am still eating a high fat diet and I have no doubts it's been helpful. Before I did this, I was thinner and even sicker. I did not absorb nutrients as well, my skin was drier and you could just tell something was missing in my diet.

Since I upped protein and fats, my weight normalised more, I actually start to feel normal hunger and no doubt other things have happened too. But for me the diet is not a cure because I have a permanent type of condition from a serious bacteria/viral infection. No amount of doing anything cures it, but I "can" reacha point where I can feel better and control symptoms a little more. however, one wrong move and it falls apart very easily....so no I don't get cured and even when I'm at my best, I"m still far from really well. It's one of those things and has afflicted me for 5 years now.

It just stays in the system (at least for me it has).

supplements cost me over £200 per month, its a nightmare.
vitc, vitb,s all seperate, vit b12 sublingual, zinc, iron, magnesium, molybdenom, phosphatydil serine, thyroid and adrenal hormones, milkthistle tincture, cats claw, barley grass, oil of oregano, lugols iodine, probiotics, coconut oil, borage oil, vit E selenium,sea salt, dmsa, ala there are probably more.
i couldnt afford these if i didnt work, probably couldnt work without them. Dawn.

in all the time i have been taking supplements i have had one cold, before that i caught a cold every month and had a constant sore throat. my partner, kids, colleagues have all come down with real bad colds and flu but not me,mind you id rather get colds than feel like i do.

LL: yes, I have read something about Pauling.
The difference between natural vit C and synthetic vit C is still quite big. Synthetic C contains only ascorbic acid, while natural vit C contains the following: rutin, vit P, factor J, P, K, tyrosinase, ascorbigen, ascorbic acid.
Natural vit C is expensive, however, you have to get it from fruit or something. Like you said, ascorbic acid is still produced by animals in their livers, so I assume that it is useful on its own (haven't even claimed that it would be useless), I'm just no fan of megadosing things at least over a longer time, doesn't probably work for everyone either, some people can get kidney stones (I've heard), and flooding your body with ascorbic acid the whole time can be a bit rough on the kidneys anyway. And it was efficient for me too, but I belong to those people who don't like excess amounts of it.

Another example is vit E, the synthetic form contains only dla-tocopherol (a less potent version of the natural a-tocopherol), while natural vit E has a,b,c,d-tocopherol. Natural forms of vit E also contain four different tocotrienols. Fortunately getting real E is easy and not expensive even.

Taking ALA indiscrimmanently, or even NAC if you have suspected mercury (which is why people are on this forum?) will be the quickest and possilby worst thing you can do to mess you up seriously. With or without amalgams. Either taken the wrong way or taken at the wrong time etc. could screw you up bad.

Here is a recent quote from Andy Cutler who is a qualified expert on mercury and chelation to let us know how dangerous ALA can be.



This also goes for NAC. I think a few of us have been trying to warn mercury toxic people about these things, that whilst they maybe good for boosting gluathione and for the liver, there is the OTHER side to this. Two mercury toxic people apparently committed suicide after being put on pretty high doses of NAC from a well meaning doctor/health worker. The side effect from moving too much mercury everywhere can have serious side effects of worsening depression/ suicidal thoughts etc. These things may not be easily reversed after stopping usage.

Sunshine on here has already spoken what it did to him...It is NOT just a case of candida die off, they are not antifungals!! A side effect of boosting glutathione maybe helpful in yeast situations and may encourage the body to fight the yeast better, but because these products can mobilise/chelate mercury you can be in serious trouble and the side effects you get from these products may not be all yeast related and may indeed be related to mercury.

It is not just about candida, we are on this forum usually for more than one issue (most often candida/mercury). And many people with candida may have mercury and not realise it, so taking products like this may injure them. Products good in candida situations, may have the side effect of being highly risky if mercury is involved and so often it is.

I think if anybody wants to try NAC, it should be done carefully in very small doses and watch for reactions. ALA should never be used with amalgams and should never be used if blood levels of mercury have not first been reduced. It should also be used according to a protocol that has been tried and tested so that you will not damage yourself further. E.g. the frequent dose protocol seems so far to be the safest and should later on in the programme (at least in Andy's opinion and so far he has been spot on).

Salivating as a side effect from these things that boost glutathione maybe mercury related. It is what I suffered with metals for many years and what I suffered whenever given any chelation therapy. Salivation is spoken about as a classic mercury toxic symptom and you will likely see it on almost every mercury symptom list. Any health practioner experienced in mercury knows the salivating symptom is a strong sign of mercury.

I have to agree with BEX here. When you talking about supplemention with ALA it needs to put in context and that talking it incorrectly will seriously harm people. It is not a supplement to just take willy nilly. It needs to be taken very seriously and done on protocol, every 3 hours. What to do if you miss a dose…etc needs to be discussed. You should not be so blasé about recommending something that can have such grim consequences without even mentioning what could happen if taken incorrectly. IMHO.

And again with NAC, I admit that I had a problem with cysteine so my judgement may be clouded, but again the problems people have with these things needs to be said when they are being discussed. Not just blindly recommending it as a supplement to take to help you get better, because many people get worse and many people that really know about this stuff say it is very dangerous indeed.

I don’t know if you all saw this research paper. Its quite long but it is 100pct relevant to our situation and to the discussion going on here about NAC, cysteine, DMSA, ALA and how to chelate. It is well worth printing out and having a couple reads.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/frequent-dose-chelation/files/Rooney2007.pdf

Hi Bex,
I'm not sure about the coconut oil. The diet has stopped me from waking up hungry at 3am but perhaps that is from stopping sugar consumption rather than upping fat. I do love the egg drink so I think I'll keep taking that every day. I struggle with knowing what to believe, I think i'll just stick to the VCO and butter as it does seem to have helped others and otherwise I'm just switching from one thing to another with no clue lol. I too am underweight but I have put on 5 kilos in the last month since quitting smoking! I have not actually been eating more so I think my absorption must have improved. It's an encouraging sign.

Do you think chelating and improving your immune system will eventually resolve your viral infection?

HI, thanks sunshine for the extra information.

Already we have had two people on here badly injured by such supplements as ALA and cilantro - Jinx and comcoll etc. Comcoll still has amalgams and got recommended to use this (I think by a doctor?) and got badly hurt. Jinx I think tried it too and/or cilantro and got badly hurt...and I mean long term.

I don't think anybody should assume becuase we or someone else may have gotten away with it, or that we may know someone that did well on this stuff taken in random fashion, that it's ok to gamble with someone else's health in light of such serious potential outcomes.

I know there are no guarantees that even the most tried and test logical protocol such as Andy Cutler's is going to be ideal or suit everybody or never produce any adverse effects. But if it has an excellent safety track record and it seems so many already injured by other protocols are turning to it, then I'd say it's a pretty good bet to pass onto other people.

I know people have every right to try what they want, even after warnings given. But they need to hear this, so they can make a more informed decision beforehand. I would hate to be part of injuring someone irreversibly after knowing this....

Hi Cmlyon, I think the diet advocated on that forum is excellent, including the fats. I don't think that taking such recommended amounts is harmful at all, but I cannot financially afford to do it to be honest.

I too have had improvements since stopping sugar, but the addition of those fats seemed to help even further.....so like you, not sure which did what exactly, but combination? I think was the key.

I was underweight too! I stopped absorbing nutrients and candida does that, so does mercury. So with candida overgrowth, you can become overweight/bloated or underweight. I've been both in my life from similar issues.

The weston Price diet has been the best I have come across. The advice from the owner on that forum follows much of it and I think it has been a godsend to me.

Coconut oil is great stuff, but too expensive for me at this time, plus I didn't feel too great on it...might have been die off, but I eventually came off it. I just stick to milder stuff like butter. I do well on that!

The egg drink looks great too! Though I just eat my eggs cooked. I follow the diet, but not perfectly. I make little changes to suit myself. I have the lemon and celtic sea salt drink.... Actually I add vitamin C, or sometimes if I have no lemons, I just have the vitamin C and salt (which incidentally is apparently great for lyme disease too...bonus).

For me, I am not sure if chelating will improve my current condition further. But I'm open to that possibility. Right now I've had new exposure to mercury vapor, from being in a dental environment. Breathing in the vapor already in there (not from my own teeth, I have not had amalgams for over ten years now).

So this new exposure from the dental office recently has been a setback for me and though I want to get on ALA, I have been informed by a well researched person on the frequent dose forum that it is best to use DMSA when one has had a recent exposure. ALA maybe ok for me, as I've not had amalgams for so long, but I don't know if I should risk it just yet when I only went to the dental office a couple of weeks ago and can really feel the effects of the mercury!

Though DMSA does not appear to give me symptoms (detox symptoms), I am going to try it again and really take note to see if there is even subtle effects/improvements. I take it according to the Andrew Cutler protocol (frequent dose) because this is the only method that has proven safe for me and many others.

I think that the diet does definitely help me! Indeed and I also believe personally that when I am on this diet for long enough, it appears my body actually starts trying to oust a certain amount of toxins and metals, but I cannot be sure of that. Certainly it seems to improve a bit, but I need to be on it for weeks before I notice improvements and sticking to it is essential or I relapse completely.

Relapsing like this shows me that the underlying condition is there and hasn't gone away. I hope chelating and diet will indeed give my body the boost it needs to fight the virus, wish it could overcome it completely, but so far it's only been able to give more control..... But here's hoping!

I'm on a parasite cleanse at the moment in case they are a problem. I think this may have helped a little, but obviously it's not enough for me. Chelation is next!

Hi Bex,
I know what you mean. You have to decide which of the treatments you can or cannot avoid at any particular time! Funnily enough I was able to tolerate 2-3 tablespoons of VCO and 2 tablespoons of butter straight away (I was not aware that you were supposed to slowly work up to that lol). I would even have 2 drinks per day and not be effected. Then somehow I got worse after a cheat and eventually couldn't even tolerate a teaspoon of either butter or VCO without bad dirreah and fatigue. That was odd, but I'm back up to approx 2 Tbs a day again.

I've always been underwieght. I think this is the first time in my life that I have ever naturally put weight on despite eating much more than anyone around me and constantly being hungry!

I do like the Weston Price info as well. There is always so much to learn there. I would like to get Nourishing Traditions as well, but can't afford right now. Actually there are a few many friends that I would like to buy it for!

I hope that chelating does work for you. I am aware of the frequent dose chelation list. I'm on that as well.. i'm on a lot of lists lol. Do you think that by chelating your immune system would heal and thus fight the infection? It must be so frustrating for you having gone through this for 5 years!

I have hashimotos, hyperthyroid and adrenal issues too which I'm hoping diet and supplements will fix. I was going to try direct treatment for these but I'm not sure if I want to take the risk. I'm going to try diet for 3 months and get another lot of labs ordered, i just hope 3 months is enough. I'm keen to get that problem sorted so I can have my darn fillings removed!

What sort of parasite cleanse are you on? Have you tried the '9 day program' (gotta love the handy euphemism)?

Good luck with everything!

Hi cmlyon, exactly. Sometimes you have to make little adjustments to suit you own situation. I've had similar to you. Onetime I might get away with something and then next time I won't. Or suddenly something can change your health situation, even a cheat to such an extent, you feel as though you have to start from scatch.

Glad to hear you've put on a few pounds, that is a good sign. Though it can take awhile before that happens. I am now an average weight.

lol you're on very similar forums to me! Great advice though eh? The best I've come across and the stuff actually works. All my years of trying this and that and finally coming across the real thing (at least for me it is).

I hope your issues will eventually be resolved by the diet/ amalgam removal and chelation (should you go down that road). Hopefully though being on the diet for sometime will give you further strength. I know a dentist here (biologic) has a specific protocol for his mercury sick patients. The diet is the first thing he gets right, (candida diet), then he adds supplements, natural antifungal, probitoics etc. So even he won't do an amalgam removal unless the patient is first pre-prepped! IF they don't want to do it, he will not do the removal. he feels that they need to be in a better state of health before they undergo amalgam removal. I'm inclined to agree!

The parasite cleanse I am on is "Verm Xpel" by Malcolm Harker. Contains many potent ingredients. But Huma-worm appears to be better than this. Though i would need to order that from overseas, we don't stock it in our country. So thought I'd try one I can get here first. No I haven't tried the 9 day programme, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> but have heard of ones like that here.

Don't know if I will get huma-worm, I feel that chelation maybe the next essential...

thanks for the well wishes, hope the same for you!!
Cheers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goodluck.gif" alt="" />

Fats -- coconut oil and butter are very healthy. Coconut oil, especially, is good for frying because it is very stable even at high temperatures.

And though these are a healthy part of any diet, generous amounts of them aren't suitable for all. I got an order of krill oil in America from Mercola.com and was also sent a copy of his new book, "Take Control of Your Health," which includes a chapter about nutritional typing. I am a protein type and I match his list of criteria for that type exactly. Then there are carb types -- a smaller proportion of the population, but people who actually do well on the more mainstream recommended diet of low fat, low protein, and grains (veg and whole grains are still best). There are also mixed types. Apparently one clue to which type you are is whether you like white or dark meat from chicken or turkey. Protein types like the dark meat and carb types like the light meat. Mercola says that some of the sickest people that have come to his clinic have been protein types following a vegetarian diet. You can read more about nutritional typing on his site here. You don't have to pay for the official test, just look around his site and read the articles.

I do wish coconut oil were cheaper. It's wonderful stuff. I'd use it all the time if I could.

I get my coconut oil from here. Because I am on the mailing list I got 6 tubs for £40 which is £6.66 for 460g. I think they normally cost £10 individually.

http://www.coconoil.co.uk/virgin_coconut_oil/organic.html

I get die off symptoms if eat too much, so I had to stop eating it altogether but I am doing a parasite cleanse now and die-off from the oil seems less now, so I am restarting eating it.

Cmlyon : if u want to do a parasite cleanse I can highly recommend Humaworm. The support on Curezone is also very good too. I have greatly benefited from the Humaworm rounds. I am currently on my second round. It is a 1 month cleanse.

I can recommend that book Nourishing Traditions too. it is very good, although my cooking skills are somewhat lacking! I attempted a banana cake yesterday and its fair to say it was a disaster, LOL. It collapsed!

Hi Linda, you know I disapprove of dr mercola, but that diet stuff looks interesting. I will have a read. I seem to be craving grains at the moment. They agree with me big time and I put weight on when I eat them(which is good). I feel I have slightly more energy too…..but I don’t understand why….so I will have a read of that site. cheers

Hi Sunflower,

No I didn't know Patrick Holford had been a student of Linus Pauling's. I hope things worked out better for him than with some others. Arthur Robinson was one; after he'd done some experiments on lab rats with vitamin C and claimed that they showed Pauling's ideas to be false, there was a major scrap and Pauling more or less threw Robinson out of the institute. Probably no one will ever know for sure the exact details of what happened. It was more ammo for the pathological skeptics to throw at me when I was debating with them, but I don't think one series of tests done on lab rats by one scientist in regards to vitamin C is going to stand on its own to overthrow all the other positive studies done on humans, past and present; nor do I think Pauling was a saint who was immune to frustration and fits of temper. It looks to me like Holford has remained rather more true to the spirit of holistic and orthomolecular medicine than Robinson, who is a pretty obscure figure now.

I also noticed that Stephen Barrett (our old friend) has devoted an entire website to "debunking" Holford. It's a puerile piece of rubbish, typical of the mentality of him and his followers. If the Quackwatch team have blacklisted them, you know they're probably good people who are worth looking into <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I got my Linus Pauling book from Amazon.com by the way. It's a little scientific in places, the chemistry is rather beyond me, but overall it's very readable. It's probably still my favourite health book. Pauling wasn't so aware of dietary factors in health -- if he had been, he might have lived to be even older than 94 and might have died of something other than cancer, who knows.

So what's Holford's angle on things? I've had another look at his website. I was expecting to see more there; would it be useful to join up for a free newsletter, do you think?

Hi Sunshine <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I should be doing schoolwork but I have to admit it's nice to take some time out for some interesting discussions first. I can't remember you telling me you weren't fond of Dr. Mercola; what were the reasons? I don't agree with him 100% myself. He generally disapproves of nutritional supplementation, apart from something basic like fish oil, and I think he's wrong there -- lots of studies would back me up. I'm also no expert on nutritional typing, but what piqued my interest was the fact that I match every single criterion for the protein type; in fact, it would explain a lot. There must be something to it, at least in my case, and he has had a lot of success in using it for his patients.

Those are fantastic prices on coconut oil BTW. Is it really good stuff? The last pot I bought online was supposed to be virgin and organic, but it smelled and tasted of chemicals. The stuff I bought in Denver was cheaper, but it smells and tastes like it ought to and I can tell it's the real thing. If you like the product you've got then I'll be keen to give it a try.

Hi pgm,

I totally agree with what you say about synthetic vitamin E. It is the wrong chirality and the successful studies that have been done with it, particularly by the Shute brothers, always used the natural form. Sometimes if people are setting out to do a vitamin E study with the intention of it failing, they will use the synthetic form. Of course, all that gets reported in the media is that vitamin E is useless in orthomolecular doses.

I used to have the opinion, too, that megadosing anything can be dangerous. Once I started educating myself about vitamins, though, I found that most of them are quite safe to take in large doses, and many don't even have an established upper limit. You might be interested in having a browse of Orthomolecular.org, and a site called Doctor Yourself, run by the assistant editor of the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine.

Plant-derived vitamin C is nice, but expensive as you say, and you don't tend to get as much as one gram of ascorbic acid in a tablet; the ones I've looked at only have 250mg. The data I'm aware of shows that large doses of ascorbic acid can be beneficial for human health and healing, especially when given intravenously. Stories about it having side effects, or being dangerous in large doses, being hard on the kidneys and causing kidney stones, tend to be based on flawed data and unverified assumptions. Pauling talks in the book I mentioned about claims of ascorbic acid causing kidney stones and firmly refutes them; again, there's no data supporting the claims. Ascorbic acid, even in large doses, appears to be quite natural for the system and those who seek to claim otherwise tend to be members of the Barrett crowd who favour "safe and tested" pharmaceuticals over a diet and supplement approach to health.

I take 9g a day and my 5-year-old has 3g a day. We both have been very healthy; the last head cold she started to come down with disappeared in about 2 days. I would never be without it in the house <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That coconut oil is good to go, the real deal. Seems fine to me. I have been using it daily for most of 2007. No chemical aftertastes nor effects to report.

Dr. Mercola: his mercury detox plan is the worst I have ever seen. He obviously has not done his homework in the slightest. It is just bits and bobs he has picked along the way and cobbled together. Everything bad that you can possibly do he recommends doing. Utter BS IMHO. So when I see him playing with peoples health in such a haphazard way…..makes me mistrust everything he has to say. He is obviously trying to be a jack-of-all-trades. He is obviously very mainstream and money driven, and for the vast majority of situations…that’s probably fine……but for mercury issues it is not fine. Also I don’t like his style of writing, it irritates me. I am not an ignorant American housewife, I am an arrogant English sod.

Which book are you talking about diet:?

“The Metabolic Typing Diet” by Willian Linz Wolcott ?

and back on topic of supplements……….this is the first christmas ever that I have not had a stinking cold nor flu (touch wood)

Hi Linda,
I never heard of Arthur Robinson.I won't pass judgement as
who knows what went on?
I read that Linus Pauling helped Patrick Holford found the Institute of Opt.Nutrition in 1984.

I have many of his many books,some of them are co authored
and I find them really brilliant.
i've met him and believe in my heart & soul that he is a truly outstanding man who is in it for the good of mankind and not to line his pockets.He has alot of time for people.
If you want a good start is the "optimum nutrition bible",like a general summary (extremely detailed &informative)

The newsletter might be good idea as it will be up to the minute info.Rather than waiting for an update of his book...

I'll have a look at your coconut oil link then Sunshine, thanks. Those are good prices.

I agree with you that Mercola's mercury detox protocol is rather ignorant. My way into his site was more general with diet though; and while I do my own research and take what he says with a large grain of salt, I find myself agreeing with him about health issues a lot of the time. I don't think he's aware of the potential problems with his chelation recommendations, and to be honest I doubt whether that many people follow them. He's not known for his knowledge in that area.

He's not at all mainstream, I wouldn't have said; his holistic health ideas, apart from the lack of supplements, are in keeping with the kinds of things people discuss on this forum. As far as being money-driven, he does sell some things from his site, but not very many. He employs a staff to help him keep the site running and I suppose everyone has to be paid. I haven't seen any dodgy-looking products for sale there.

If we all do our homework and pay attention to our individual needs, then I think we're always going to disagree at least partially with any of these self-styled health experts. I haven't actually come across any of them who are as aware as my ND is of the healing powers of different kinds of supplements, especially when they are tailored for the physiology of someone who has been damaged by psychiatric drugs. They all appear to have things to learn and I hope they continue to do so. The days when we could trust that the "doctor knows best," whatever kind of doctor that is, are gone: the responsibility for our health lies with us first and foremost.

Sorry about the speech LOL. Mercola's book, with the chapter on nutritional typing, is called Take Control of Your Health. If you think you may be a protein type I can pass along the basics of what he says about that.

Good on you for not getting a cold I haven't had one either, which is very unusual after two transatlantic flights, jet lag, etc. The past few winters I was ill more often than I was well, but this winter has been markedly better. Down to amalgam removal, chelation, and good ol' vitamin C I reckon <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll go back to Holford's site and join his newletter, thanks Sunflower <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was a bit irresponsive for not warning about those supplements. But then again, the question was also only about what supplements is commonly used - not a recommendation to use them.
But potentially anything on the list can be harmful. Even vit C can backfire if taken in large enough doses. I saw one on a candida forum talking about death being near after going past 5 grams of vit C. I also tried to copy your behavior here, when everyone seems to use at least 4 g of C, but the plan backfired. I was lucky enough to not get past 1 g, before it backfired, not a biggie, but I learned my lesson. So, yes be careful in what you recommend, things work very differently for everyone. I think vit E can backfire even more (based on the small amounts I've taken), but people are usually not megadosing it (which is a good idea).

Bex: I know that many like to put salivation as a cause of mercury, but I have to disagree on this. Because for example things like C & E which should not mobilize mercury or even chelate it has had a similar effect on salivation on me than agents which are supposed to chelate mercury. There are also other, more subtle issues involved that are too lengthy to explain here. But we don't have to agree on everything <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Can I ask what you mean by backfiring? If you reach what's called bowel tolerance when you take vitamin C, then you decrease the dose a little and maintain it there; but usually it takes several grams for healthy people to get there, and more still when someone is ill.

Sometimes people claim they are able to take little or no vitamin C as it causes them problems, but usually these are people who are quite ill and whose systems are reflexively and protectively rejecting things whether they are healthy or not. I have spoken to a few people on this forum for whom this was the case, and they were unfortunately very ill. I've seen my ND give advice to people in this situation where they introduce a supplement and work up the dose very, very slowly. Something like vitamin C is necessary, especially for someone who is ill.

Don't knock megadosing any vitamins until you've done some research on them first, OK? Because what you personally believe or think is dangerous may not actually fit the facts. Sometimes a lot can depend on the kind of supplement you are taking and how it was derived, as well as if there are other nutrients present with which it works in synergy; also the state of your health, what kind of condition (if any) you are trying to treat, toxins present in your body, and other factors. These are reasons to say, as you do, that everyone is different and has different needs -- but they are not appropriate reasons for a blanket statement that megadosing vitamins isn't a good idea.

If you'd like to cite some studies here I'd be glad to read the info/abstracts and discuss them. I'm also happy to cite some of the info I've read myself if you'd like.

Re megadosing

From what I understand normal people SHOULD be able to receive all the vitamins and minerals from their diet alone. Of course the diet has to very good, organic healthy diet. And even then, because of the way our food is farmed/grown, even the organic stuff, it is de-mineralised due to over farming and poor soil conditions, so the normal person will still find it difficult to get all the nutrients then his/her body requires….but nevertheless a normal person on a optimum healthy organic diet should not need to megadose vitamins.

Sick people should also be able to get better solely from an ultra healthy diet too, but it has to be a very good diet. Most people do not have even half decent diets, let alone eating nutritious organic food.

However mercury poisoned people are different. The mercury has invaded, lodged, clogged almost ever organ in the body. Which means everything is compromised; everything is below-par, everything is struggling, everything needs as much nutrients as possible and is pulling them from wherever they can get it from. All these underperforming body parts lead to even more stress on the body. Which I guess is why us mercury poisoned people have some success megadosing. I say some success, because it is not a get out of jail card. Chelation is a get out of jail card. Megadosing supplemention supports the body in it’s time of huge levels of stress, of which you don’t get much higher mercury poisoning.

I assume PGM that you still have not read Amalgam illness and I must say again, if you are mercury poisoned, reading that book will be the best research you could ever make into this cursed illness….

I agree, there should be a reason for megadosing. Doing it for its own sake would be strange. You made a good point about nutients in the soil being depleted. There have been studies on this at various times over the past century, and one was published recently that showed that some of the main fruit and veg we eat have only half of the vitamins and minerals in them that they did a generation ago. They contained still more before that. I think that's frightening, and a good reason to supplement whether a person is ill or healthy. I also think there's good evidence that the optimum vitamin C intake for people is a few grams a day, and that's simply impossible to get from a modern diet.

And you're right, people who are ill/toxic/damaged can indeed benefit from megadosing, as long as the supplements are chosen well. I know, for example, that pharmaceuticals deplete the body's nutrition reserves. You might be interested in having a look at that Doctor Yourself site as it lists many common illnesses, and suggests various holistic, nutritional and orthomolecular approaches to healing them. Dr. Abram Hoffer, editor of the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine, has had a lot of success in treating schizophrenia with megadoses of vitamin C and niacin.

Ideally we'd all get all the nutrients we need from our diets but sadly I think that's difficult for anyone living in the western world. Even fish, one of the healthiest foods it was once possible to eat, is now so contaminated that it's better to avoid most of it and supplement with high quality fish oil instead.

Having said all that, I'm doing everything I can to feel better and I feel like hell tonight. Damn mercury. We can support our bodies with all these things but when the problem is a toxin, the only thing that will really help is for the toxin to come out. I wish there were a way to measure how much I've got rid of and how much is left because it feels like I'm losing the battle with SAD this winter.

Those of us poisoned in one way or another, abandon by the medical community don't have much choice but to be responsible for our own health. We have special nutrition needs. Mercury eats up selenium which there is no way to get enough in your diet for someone with mercury poisoning. Other minerals like molybdenum are very helpful but impossible to get out of your diet in any quantity.

Most people with CFS are magnesium deficient (among other things like B12 and vitamin C) because they cannot get enough in their diet that their body demands.

As someone with CFS (mercury induced I believe) after 2 years of experimentation with supplements I have found only a few that have had an immediate and positive effect (Tryptophan and Tyrosine, Zinc, B6 NAC, Adrenal Glandular, Buffered C, Glutamine and some others).

Many others did not have a negative effect but didn't seem to have much of an effect at all. Some supplements need to be taken in combination with others to work well (Zinc and B6) depending on what you are trying to treat.

In my studies I've found that for just about any human condition there is a natural substance that will specifically address it.

Hi Pgm, vitamin C is not a chelator nor a mobiliser. When you say that you backfired after copying my plan here.....I was somewhat surprised. It isn't and wasn't MY plan, but a common part of many people's supplement regimes..... and something I only passed on not just from the many who are taking it (mercury toxic and otherwise) but from qualified experts who recommend it (both in my own country and on here). Vitamin C recommendations are very common on just about any forum including this one (Frequent dose and adult metal chelation forum being two such ones, without even counting the vast information on curezone forums). And certainly there are no such documentation that I have ever come across that it's a concern regarding mercury or other metals or yeast. I am passing on nothing more than stuff than even the most toxic people are taking regularly. I would never have suggested vitamin C in even relatively high doses if I thought others would be in danger of permanent or long term damage and I doubt the likes of Andy Cutler would either! He would soon be exposed for harming people if this were the case. Nor have I heard of such! I am very sorry to hear about the person you mentioned, that is a very big concern and that alone should caution any of us in either taking or recommending immediate high dose supplementation without starting slow and small to test for reactions.

Is what you're saying here suggesting that vitamin C or even vitamin E, could in certain circumstances, be just as harmful or risky as the likes of ALA and cilantro?.... if vitamin C does not chelate or move mercury (unless there is evidence to suggest otherwise), then I hardly see it being in the same high risk catagory as heavy duty mercury mobilisers/chelators as already mentioned.. The only risk to taking vitamin C perhaps is the too much too soon senario with pumping up the antioxidant/detox ability (glutathione etc) in the body, which perhaps would cause an increase in detoxification symptoms at the sametime? which might at times be intolerable....does this mean long term/ permanent effects/damage? I'd be surprised if that were ever the case. Many highly toxic people do not take much at all to tip them over the already delicate balance and even an increase in just antioxidants can be enough to do that alone, especially in the early stages.

I've had this myself with vitamin C (and selenium too by the way) when I was full of mercury (blood) and already had enough symptoms from not taking a thing. So when I used a good quality lab vitamin C powder, and tried selenium drops, my symptoms almost sky rocketed at first. I stopped the selenium completely at first and had to lower the vitamin C to half the dosage that the doctor had recommended, I was too toxic and sensitive to handle even that. But the effects were FAR from long term injury as I had been from other products like chlorella, ALA, cilantro etc. The effects died down rather quickly in comparison (next day) and I simply adjusted the dose up and down many times to see what I could handle at the time. I was a very serious case of mercury toxicity and hyper sensitive too. Later, I was able to handle higher doses of vitamin C and take selenium (on and off) and over long term use, found these both very helpful. But the intial increase in symptoms from these, simply does not even come close to months long agonising backfires from serious chelating agents, unless there are cases out there I've not heard of yet? I would say if someone is experiencing too many symptoms from the likes of selenium, vitamin C, vitamin E, perhaps this is a strong indicator of toxic overload and the need to be EXTRA cautious and slow.


If you know of anybody who has been seriously harmed long term from high vitamin C intake or vitamin E etc? I suggest you get in touch with Andy or the frequent dose forum and let him/them know. Because his recommendations are increasing in popularity and two forums alone use his protocol and if there is anything of concern in that area, then it would be helpful to inform them of that in case anybody else is hurt.

From my experience (unqualified as it is, but well qualified in suffering these horrific metal and yeast illnesses) antioxidants can most definitely increase detox symptoms but usually when the person is already in dumping detox mode or they may stimulate the body's natural process even more and increase symptoms, particularly in someone excessively toxic.

We don't have to agree on everything, I agree <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But again I have yet to see an article on yeast causing excessive salivation and if there is one, is there a qualified doctor/chemist behind it? Dr Godfrey (well known highly qualified doctor in new zealand). He's worked with mercury toxic patients for many years, the guy is now pretty old. Excessive salivation and/or crying excessively during toxicity or detoxification, particularly when increased by certain supplements/chelating agents, he said is MERCURY. I cannot tell you how many patients he has been treating for years on end with mercury. Metal taste added to that is just a further confirmation, plus the increased symptoms during his homeopathic metal detox remedies. He states to take them at tiny doses at first because the effects can be tremendous. Not once did he mention yeast, nor has any other mercury knowledgeable doc/dentist/health advisor that I have ever read about or gone to. Crying and salivating in fact, is one way the body can attempt to eliminate heavy metals and other toxins and it certainly worked that way with me many times. Andy's protocol made it less intense and more tolerable for me by moving mercury more evenly and safely and in fact often corrected a bad reaction from other protocols and cleared the newly exposed or massively mobilised metals out again in the right way, enabling more stability. But again detox symptoms were never eliminated when I was chelating, always there to some degree.

Just because vitamin C and vitamin E may not be direct mercury chelators/binders/mobilisers, does not mean there cannot be an increase in metal symptoms when you take them. if amalgam removal alone can stimulate "some" metal elimination to a certain degree (which andy mentions), which would also use up antioxidants in the process Im sure as well as the typical metal detox symptoms... then surely taking antioxidants to replace, support and stimulate this natural process further, would then logically ncrease those symptoms? Particularly if they boost the body's natural detox "gluathione". Just a thought. May explain what happened to me and why selenium coudl at times be helpful or intolerable!

Bex,

I am very sensitive to Selenium all of a sudden. This morning I took about 60-70 mcg and had some very strange symptoms especially in the brain. It wasn't until I took my Spirulina and buffered C that I felt half way "normal" again.

HI sregan, I've had similar issues with it in the past at times.

What form of selenium are you taking? E.g. sodium selenite? selenomethione etc...? because according to Andy some people respond poorly to selenite but do well better with selenomethione.

This is what he says about selenium and mercury.


I am personally honestly not certain of what EXACTLY goes on with selenium and mercury because I have experienced much help from selenium and at times difficulty also and some distressing symptoms. Brain symptoms are not always caused by brain mercury. I thought they were, but Andy discusses this too somewhere that even liver mercury can cause mental symptoms too etc.

It is good that you were able to improve your reaction to selenium with the other products. Sometimes there is not enough information to explain why all these things occur. 60-70 mcg is not much at all, but I hear in very mercury toxic people that reacting to even small doses of selenium is not uncommon. Some call it detox effects and may indicate very toxic levels of mercury (or simply that you are reacting badly to the selenium itself)?.

If you feel it doesn't suit you, or if you are taking a type of selenium that reacts with you (selenite for example), you could simply oust it from your programme, try again later on a lower does, use another form of it (selenomethione).

Check this link out http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/ANDY_INDEX.html and scroll down to "SUPPLEMENTS, FOOD ISSUES AND DRUGS". and you'll see where selenium is mentioned, as well as zinc. Here is another excerpt on Andy mentioning both these products:


If the selenium can to some degree bind with the mercury to form even a poor soluble compound, would this then allow for "some" easier excretion of more accessible mercury I wonder? I guess I am just not getting it! I cannot figure out whether it's the indirect effect of selenium boosting gluathione levels and thus causing the effect of increased detoxification ability or selenium competing with and displacing mercury perhaps causing some redistribution, or what exactly is going on...heard a few theories on this.

You can also check that earlier link out and scroll down to "effects of mercury Toxicity" and you should see "symptoms of mercury in brain vs in body". I was unable to access it, but you might be able to.

The link is excellent and helps answer many questions.

In my experience, Selenium is one of those supplements that one can have a reaction to. When I first was diagnosed with mercury poisoning my MD put me on 200 mgs of Selenium and I "suddenly" could not go out in public places, became fearful and highly anxious and suspicious of everyone. Bernie of DAMS had told me to be careful of this supplement before, when I remembered this, I stopped taking it and within 2 days I was back to normal.

I tried a few months later, same reaction. Now it's in small doses in one of my daily supplements (33 mgs) and that seems to work well.

I think most supplements are a battle against the symptoms while not really eliminating the underlying cause.
They provide some relief but they are ultimately a losing battle

The things that helped me most (in case some people forget parasites)
1) treating parasites (took care almost all of my symptoms)
2) treating candida (took care some symptoms)
3) mercury chelation (lowered the severity of the symptoms a bit)

I think the parasites caused the yeast


My last plan of battle since I have almost no symptoms and they are very subtle is a last round of ALA 100mg 60 capsules, and incase some metals are chelated and cause more parasites and yeast I will use more mebendazole and diflucan after I finish the ALA

Thanks Bex and Sunshine, yes I have heard good things from the humaworm cleanse. It may be worth trying.

I think supplements can help in combination with a proper diet for the immune system whatever the illness is and may eventually maintain a certain level of improvement for those that have some other underlying condition to deal with. I imagine with anything, supplements, antifungals, parasite cleanses, that unless the underlying cause that allowed these things to flourish in the first place will of course no doubt relapse at some point after stopping ongoing treatment. Supplements are usually (for me) rather ineffective unless done in combination with the diet, because the body will not even be able to absorb them and make proper use unless the body is strong enough to start absorbing nutrients again. So they can be somewhat...useless until that is fixed up.

I've done a parasite cleanse, I have also used antifungals before, I've used supplements before, but unless I stick with a specific diet, I'm a gonner. If I go off the diet, I'm a gonner. So it's all I have for now because I live with an ongoing virus that never leaves, plus other possible infections (jawbone).

THere are people on candida forums who go on the diet, take antifungals and supplements and start feeling really well and sometimes that healing can last even after they relax the diet a bit. They are usually the ones who may have had a temporary health setback and developed yeast in the process. Treating yeast might then result in lasting improvements or even a cure and they're back to normal again. But those like myself, or with other underlying conditions who have candida as a result, are the ones who constantly relapse whenever they go off treatment. Unless in the process the underlying condition has actually been able to heal from proper diet and treatment (which is a bonus). Mine unfortuantely does not do that and I imagine those with severe mercury poisoning may not either, though it does help. It also takes the body a long time to heal and a long time to re-establish proper good bacteria apparently (months on end), so that's another thing. I had antibiotics more than a year ago and now my diet cheats are devastating and it takes many weeks now to get back on track.

" When I first was diagnosed with mercury poisoning my MD put me on 200 mgs of Selenium and I "suddenly" could not go out in public places, became fearful and highly anxious and suspicious of everyone."

I have just bought selenium and I'm a bit worried about having the same thing happen to be since I'm already fairly anxious and irritable. I want to take it as I have high Reverse T3 and Selenium is supposed to help with the conversion from T4 to T3. I think I'll try it before the weekend so I'm not around people if I loop out lol. I bought the NOW brand months ago which contains rice flour. Does anyone have an opinion on the rice flour? Would this be no good for someone with candida or would it be in such small amounts that it would be no big deal?

I had a reaction to selenium as well and flipped out one night after taking it and didn't know what to do with myself, I was crying more and more shaky. The reaction didn't last long term, but again it was unnerving. Selenium really seems to be something that can be kind of dodgy sometimes. That's why Andy says you can take it or leave it pretty much. However 200 mcg is ALOT to start if you are really toxic and may have been what pushed you over the edge, plus what kind of selenium can also make the difference.

cmlyon, you haven't said what kind of selenium it is......? I'd be curious to know. That may make the difference too. When I flipped out, I was taking selenite. Yet it had done great for me in certain times in the past and seemed honestly to help me get a bit less toxic over time. Either that or it just "felt" that way. But I believe it did aid my body to eliminate "some" mercury because it increased the mercury rashes I was getting when I heated up. I had a terrible time with that. It was caused by a DMPS IV injection, which had pulled so much metals into accessible areas, that I was beside myself with what happened. I could not cope with it and had rashes for years whenever I heated up (mercury rises with heat apparently). It was a bizzare thing and was so extensive it would cover me from head to toe. However, that's another way I managed to eliminate metals. DMSA was also very helpful to properly chelate and sped things up I believe.

I doubt the bit of rice flour in the capsules will make any significant difference to be honest. It's hard to avoid these things, if it's not rice flour, it'll be something else! I don't recall being affected by that. But I was when I got into eating rice itself!

Thanks Bex,
It is L-Selenomethionine 200 mcg. I haven't tried it yet. How long did the bad effects last for you? I'm not exactly keen on becoming more of a nutcase than I already am at the moment lol. I'm glad it helped you detox a little though. If it weren't for the high RT3 I don't think I would even try it because of the possible anxiety side effects. Only one way to find out I guess!

Hi cymlon, y/w. I know what you mean about the fear of increasing the instability you already suffer with. I have been and am in the same position and it's like living on a knife edge sometimes. I am a really fearful person in so many ways, it's pathetic actually but it is what it is and I try to find ways of helping my health to help those symptoms settle more. I know I am not really this way, but the toxins do dramatic stuff to my personality and behaviours.

I think it's a sign though that there are too many toxins in the system, e.g. candida toxins and/or mercury. Chelation and candida treatment may also be what is required.

Selenium I think can be really helpful, but again it's effect in the body can be kind of weird sometimes. I have ousted it from my programme when that happens. I just don't bother and I try again another time or take lower doses. When I do get effects from it, I cannot recall how long it took, but I think it was only a few days or so. I just took it as a sign of my toxicity and the fact my body was being tipped over the edge by anything.

Selenomethione seems to be less likely to cause issues than selenite. I hope you do ok! I would go easy though.

Hi Bex,
Yes I really do feel as though it is adrenal/ thyroid problems with the ulitmate cause being mercury that turns me into irritable intolerant and withdrawn person. My 'real' personality between these bouts is relaxed easy going, friendly etc. I really hate the anxiety taking over, it's as if my personality gets switched totally with someone else. I can totally relate to how you feel. The fear is horrible.

You could be right that it is too many toxins in the system, I think it may be my adrenals but who really knows. I have been on the candida diet for 6 months and it is has given me tons of energy, yet I've become more and more irritable. I don't necessarily connect the two, but I was hoping the emotional symptoms would ease up along with the physical.

I will let you guys know how I go with the selenium when I eventually take it. It may not be for a while as I want to add other things to try and bring down cortisol first.

Hi again. Had a small break from this forum and stopped also taking anything (getting too stressful symptoms). The reason why I dont recommend megadosing vitamins is the same as that why you have to be careful with things like ALA, NAC etc. It can work for some, but not for all. Throwing in megadoses of vit C, E or selenium into a body that is *able to detox well*, and has a high burden of candida/mercury, yeah whatever you think is causing your problems, can backfire. Like I said, the backfire was not big, about being sick for a weekend, and the symptoms were about the same as that of taking garlic (diarrhoea, urinating foamy stuff, and generally feeling like crap) - I strongly suspect a candida relation here. But there is no way I can keep a sustained 1 g of vit C intake per day, without being ill the whole time. C, E & selenium are still safe in the way that they will screw you up usually for only a few days, or at most a week. ALA is known to backfire much more severly, recovery times being months, but ALA has not backfired on me, even with modest doses (20 mg every 3 hours).

The worst experience I have ever had in my life was from taking megadoses of B12, got hyperthyroid for weeks, but on paper everything was fine of course (tests revealed no flaws anywhere). This is another reason why you have to be careful about selenium too, because it also affects in a major way the way T4,T3 conversion works like B12. Again, this doesn't happen to everybody, it is an issue only for those who are not hypothyroid.

Hi Bex. It was not about copying your way of using vit C, just about copying what people seem to use here. And yes, megadosing is probably a good idea for healthy people, I have nothing against it. I don't know how serious the person who talked about "glad of being alive" on the candida forum was, but he/she seems to have been hit pretty badly by that megadose of C. My situation early on was like yours, there was no way I could take anything, but just wait till things calmed down for a few months.

HI Pgm, sorry to hear you've had a rough time of it. I know how that is <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Wishing things to get better for you.

yeah it's much more safe to check responses first by going slow and low, even on seemingly harmless antioxidants like vitamin C...which maybe harmless in and of themselves, but may in a really toxic person encourage an eruption of symptoms further (as they did intially with me)...over time it actually helped though! As did vitamin E and selenium. I did not get this on typical chewy tablets of Vitamin C from a healthfood shop. I got it from the more potent and quality powder from a laboratory here in my country. That REALLY encouraged some detox symptoms.

I am glad that person on the candida forum is "still alive". Oh yeah I can relate to that in my mercury days. I remember a plate of vegetables (sulfur ones like cabbage, broccoli), could bring on worse symptoms also, simply mobilising the metals around and made me feel ill. Anything like onions, eggs, etc. So definitely you sound similar to how I was. Reaching a point where it didn't take much to set things off further. Talk about healing crisis reactions, I'd go into one at the drop of a hat. Although I consider that good in a way that my body was asserting itself against the toxins inside and making big efforts and taking any opportunity it could to get them out, it could be frightening too and lead to being bedridden quite often. However usually the bedridden point came after using much more powerful stuff in ways that didn't suit me.

alpha lipoic acid is a very strong/direct mercury chelator. It is not just a powerful antioxidant and it also crosses the blood brain barrier. So if you are loaded with mercury or still have a pretty high blood level of it, it can escort this straight into the brain and other areas. So I personally feel that is definitely a bigger concern than vitamin C, E and selenium because of that alone.

NAC is another one that can REALLY mobilise mercury, I never took that If I recall, and kind of glad I didn't in retrospect. THough I was game then to try anything.

Pgm, it's great you are not backfiring from ALA, but you are using it every 3 hours.....(cutler style). Which is the entire point of his protocol. HIs method is to cut down or even remove the risks of backfire (redistribution). That may well by why you are not noticing a problem. It depends how mercury toxic you are though. If you took higher doses intermittently, when you felt like it, then you may have more issues.

If a person is not mercury toxic at all, they wouldn't need to take ALA every 3 hours. Because there would be no risks attached to redistribution. They could take it simply as an antioxidant or for the heart in any dose specified on the bottle or from their physician.

I know everybody is different and I know a lady who detoxed her body/blood of mercury, but had stubborn symptoms related to brain mercury. So she opted to give ALA a go. She did not follow Cutler, she took high doses of ALA about 3 times a day and she reckoned it was ok, it worked for her. But some get really very bad effects from doing this and do ok on his.

For me, I trust frequent dose due to how it works on me and others on here and elsewhere and I've had enough long term effects from backfires in my life to learn not to mess around too much. I would probably put up with the inconvenience of the dosing times for extra assurance, unless I found out that mercury was just no longer an issue for me.

Then I'd probably opt to take the stuff for the fact it's a powerful antioxidant anyway..

I've just ordered vitamin C, vitamin E and selenium and may get zinc (with B6 and magnesium). It's pretty simple and I may need more than that, but it's a start I guess. I just don't like overdoing the supplement side of things, so I can understand where Kriminal is coming from. I also wonder how effective it really is for me these days.

It used to be VERY effective, but only when I was already able to detox easier and had more healing crisis before the virus. And I think it depends on the quality of the supplements, because I didn't get much out of other stuff unless I got the lab brands.

However, these days I'm a bit like a dead fish in my responses to stuff. I could take anything and not a lot seems to happen. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shiftyeyes.gif" alt="" /> But here's hoping.

Just read the first post on this thread and wanted to say that I have used tons of supplements with very little effect. So I'm pretty disappointed in them and am always skeptical when people say they have helped them - I guess they have, they just dont work with me for some reason.

I try to keep my supplementing to a minmum... because i eat well and there are nutrients in the food afterall, real nutrients... yogurt is great for instance.. spirulina... greens.. but I do use supplements... the only things I really use daily at current though are calcium/magnesium. zinc, iodine and vitamin C. and fish oil. Most other things just a twice a week or so.

I think probably everyone has a mercury problem. i read somewhere just the other day that 40 tons 40 TONS, of mercury are pumped into the air and water every year by industry, power plants etc. and china is building 2 new coal fired power plants each week. eack week, big mercury polluters. and china has a terrible record for environmental safety so I doubt they are capturing much mercury before it goes out the stacks. So that will probably actually be 50 tons or more by next year. I guess at a certain point we won't have to worry about population growth in china anymore but until then...

I should use more ALA. I worry about the quality of supplements more than anything else. How do i really know what's really in a pil?

I am going to start some early tomato plants and onions-leeks this week. Our bottled tomatoes from last summer's garden are superb.

I like the Natural Calm magnesium/calcium citrate a lot.

What form of Magnesium is everyone using, citrate or sulfate, and in what dosage?
Thanks, Mark

I usually use magnesium citrate. Magnesium ascorbate(magnesium bound to vitamin c) is also well absorbed. I suggest that you avoid magnesium sulfate as it is probably not so well absorbed. Taking 500 mg a day of magnesium in the form of supplements might be a good idea if you feel your diet contains little magnesium. if you do think you get significant magnesium in your diet then 250 mg a day of supplementation would be good.

I used to take 1000mg of magnesium citrate every day. But I have changed to a pinch of Epsom salts with each meal instead.

Why?

Because of what that strange bloke on Curezone called Askmoreless says….i quote….

Epsom Salt is Magnesium Sulfate !

Epsom Salt is Magnesium and Sulfate!

Magnesium is an Alkaline and the Sulfate is an Acid and they have bound together and neutralized each other!

But when you take it internally, it then reacts with the body fluids and the Magnesium is released and the Sulfate is released and it is the Sulfate which may create Sulfuric Acid and react against other Minerals to give more Energy release also!

Just taking Magnesium oxide, it is all Alkaline and needs an acid to give any energy release!

Taking Magnesium citrate is magnesium reacted with a weaker acid than sulfate and so the reaction when reacted with the body fluids may not create as much Energy release as what the magnesium sulfate does!

What causes a bowel movement to be Fast is for the Digestive system to contain more Acids in it, whereas for a slow bowel movement, the digestive system may be much more Alkaline and if the digestive system does not have strong enough Acids in it then you may not recieve Enough Energy release from the foods which you may be eating!

In this case you may not recieve enough Alkaline Energy Release for the body to become Alkaline in nature in your Lymphatic system!

So the digestive system needs the Acids strong enough to do their job, but not so strong as to send the food thru too Fast and then you do not get any good out of the food either!

So it needs to be Balanced!

So by using a small amount of Epsom Salt with each meal you may recieve much more Electrical Energy created for the body to operate on than when you take Magnesium oxide or Magnesium citrate!

Also the cost of the Epsom Salt may be much less than the Magnesium citrate supplement!

Your body does not operate from absorbed Vit's and Minerals as most people want to believe, but the body operates from the Electrical Energy which is created by the reactions between the Acids and the Alkaline Minerals and Oxygen!

End.

He also said this……………

Epsom Salt is Magnesium Sulfate !

The Liver and Kidneys must have enough Magnesium to help them rid the body of
excess Nitrogen(Protein) NPN, but if the body does "NOT" have enough Sulfates along
with this Magnesium, then the body is "NOT" able to control the
Nitrogen(Protein) Isotope which is left in the body, so that what
Nitrogen(Protein), which is not Removed from the body may mostly be of the
Alkaline Isotope, thus enabling the body to be more Alkaline, instead of
becomming too Acidic !

Other forms of Magnesium which do not contain Sulfate, may "NOT" provide this
ability for the body and may allow "some" "organs" of the body to become too
"Alkaline" to begin with and then Cause the body to become too Acidic in the end!

For not everything may be as it may First seem to be !

In this case , it may take the sulfate acid to keep the Nitrogen(Protein) Isotope
in the Alkaline forming state in the body, thus keeping the body in an more Alkaline
state than if the Nitrogen(Protein) Isotope was of the Acid forming Isotope !

Could this be "WHY" I suggest for a person to take a small pinch of Epsom Salt with each meal ?

unquote

i just about grasp what he is talking about, so i thought i'd change to epsom salts see what happened. and what happened?....tricky to tell really but i didn't get worse and i continue to get better so i'm on epsom salts for now.

!!! This guy is excited !!!

Not sure about the science here though. I think I'll stick with the mag citrate for now.

Bex,

Sorry for answering this late. I'm taking this stuff:

http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=169&at=0

Selenium is "Methylselenocysteine". I did however just buy some selenomethione which I haven't tried yet. The "yeast" form is supposed to not be so good. I wonder if the Methyl form might methylate the mercury?