News you won't see in controlled mainstream media.

In Socialized Medicine, Everyone Is A Doctor

By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Thursday, January 03, 2008 4:20 PM PT

Health Reform: The British have found a way to shorten those long, annoying waits for care and lower the rising costs of their universal access system. They'll let patients take care of themselves.

Related Topics: Health Care

The London Telegraph reported Tuesday that the British government has a "plan to save billions of pounds from the NHS budget." But it won't come without enormous pain.

"Instead of going to a hospital or consulting a doctor, patients will be encouraged to carry out 'self-care' as the Department of Health tries to meet Treasury targets to curb spending," the Telegraph explained.

So when is a universal health care system not actually universal? When Britain's 60-year-old National Health Service can no longer support the weight of its clamoring clientele.

Granted, there should be more self-treatment in developed nations. Emergency rooms and doctors' offices are often overcrowded with patients who aren't in need of urgent need but who go anyway because their insurance or government is paying. That type of open access to health care has led to overuse of the system.

The NHS, though, is hoping to cut down on more than frivolous visits. It's looking for patients with "arthritis, asthma and even heart failure" to treat themselves, the Telegraph said.

Some of the self-care that will be expected of patients includes the monitoring of heart activity, blood pressure and lung capacity using equipment that has been placed in the home.

Patients will be counted on to relate health information to doctors either by phone or computer link. To manage pain, they will administer their own drugs and other treatments.

Patients will also be asked to evaluate the significance of changes in their conditions as well as employ relaxation techniques that the government hopes will help them relieve their stress and avoid emergency room visits caused by panic.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown characterizes the policy changes as improvements that will allow patients to "play a far more active role in managing their own condition." The British Department of Health calls it an "exciting opportunity."

But what they're really saying is "our universal health care system is broken, and you're on your own."

And we ask yet again: Is this the sort of system we want in the U.S.?

The ugly facts will never dissuade those who want to hijack private health care in this country and turn it over to the government. They will continue to use inflated — and irrelevant — data on the uninsured, demagogue, embellish and in general shriek about the woes of U.S. health care, which we unapologetically say is the finest in the world.

But they can't do it alone. They need America's middle-of-the-roaders, and the more the average person learns about the hazards of the British and Canadian models, the less likely he or she will blindly go along with plans to nationalize private care.

A government system in which everyone gets "free" medical treatment might sound humane. But as Britain's NHS has shown, such a program will eventually be besieged with lengthy and sometimes deadly waiting times and overwhelming costs.

From examples across the Atlantic and north of the border we are learning that both the quality and quantity of health care will suffer when the nanny state gets involved. It's a lesson we can ill afford to ignore.

What a reactionary diatribe. How can a nation boast that it has the best health care system in the world when at least 45 million Americans don't have health insurance (Census Bureau, 2003)? Attack the NHS as much as you like, I certainly do, but at least when your leg is broken they won't throw you out on the street if you can't pay to get it fixed.

Typical Torygraph tosh. Try looking in the Guardian for some more balanced opinions, says I.

What a load a crap! Is this country going to the dogs or what? This must be the end of the line……..telling people to look after themselves….to save some cash! Hahahaha…….

You can’t educate the nation to rely on doctors then…….then removed the doctors…….hahahahahaha……

Wankers!

If they want people to look after themselves….then I think it will take a little more effort than simple withdrawing money……hahahahahaha…maybe education might help?……but the school system is screwed too…..so that’s out of the question

Seriously…..this will never happen…..

There will be riots in the streets……which will be an “exciting opportunity” to smash the place up!

I agree, typical middle England, middle class cobblers from the torygraph. Try looking in The Times for some more far right opinions, says I.

I wish I'd been able to know the author of that piece that I posted above. I'm too tired to go back looking for it now. I did not write this article.

Hearing the politicians in this country tout one of their favorite "sexy" lures to the public "Healthcare for Everyone/Health Insurance for Everyone" makes me roll my eyes at the moment. Because at this point in my life, I'd just be happy to see more competent doctors. I'd prefer to hear those annoying politicians shout "Doctors use your brains, if you've got any."

Socialized medicine is nothing other than medical care that is rationed, in my opinion. And quite frankly, I think a huge conflict of interest exists when a doctor has the Government as his ultimate boss and customer, as opposed to the patient.

I also feel the same way about the health insurance industry here. The patient needs to be the customer and client of the doctor, not the patient's insurance company. And believe me, we are already experiencing the dire ramifications of rationed medical care here in the U.S. because of the medical insurance companies.

Having health insurance in this country does not equate to having or receiving good healthcare. That's an important distinction. In fact, having health insurance of the managed care type (HMO) severely restricts the quality of care one receives from a doctor or hospital. The reason is, again, rationing.
It's a sticky wicket that's for sure.

I've also come to the personal conclusion that the "profession" of Medicine should not be considered a profession at all. I'm too tired to go into great detail at the moment; however, I feel strongly that alot of the doctors (at least in this country) are nothing more than tradesmen. The "health care" system as it is set up now, certainly will not take the time, consideration, nor will it apply research or analysis into a patient's particular case. That is in direct opposition to the two other professions that come to mind -- Accounting (CPA) and Attorney. Those two professions have actually DO require that the Professional perform time, consideration, research and analysis as needed.

And before folks start questioning my support of the legal sharks, I'll just say that at least in that profession, if a client is not pleased with his attorney's legal representation of his case, the client doesn't have to pay him. Not many people know that fact, but it's true. Believe it or not, there are rather strict ethical guidelines regarding that issue.

Transactional Tradesmen. That's how I see doctors.

Can you tell I'm furious with the medical profession? lol! I'm just so sorry to find myself in the unenviable position to require medical testing and services right now.

Sharon

The country is pretty screwed up. There are actually some good doctors out there. You usually have to pay cash to get the best treatment. Insurance companies only cover certain things. Mercury poisoning is not on the radar with insurance companies for instance.

It only costs $300.00 or so to set a broken leg or arm. The health insurance you need to cover accidents like that costs quite a bit more.

I think the idea of socialized medicine is just another way for the govt to get at more of your money and then later they'll say, gee whiz, where did it go?

Kind of like the way they save your money for you with social security, Just think of the bank acct you could have if you weren't forced to give it to the govt to 'take care of you'. You'd have quite abit more... you could invest it all sorts of different ways and access it if you had an emergency in the meantime. you could name your kid as a benefactor if you die before you get it. If you die before you get social security and your kids are adults already, it's just money lost. Chances are excellent you will never receieve as much back as you paid in for 45 years or so. Imagine the interest that would accumulate in a CD or something. You could retire just on the interest payments. The system is really screwed up.

I think socialized care ideas, scoial security, the whole bit, they are very outmoded ideas. written way back years ago, the new deal... it isn't a deal anymore. i know my grandparents thought social security was great. of course they didn't have to pay it for the first 20 or 30 working years of their lives. It was a great deal for them. For me it's just thousands less each year that i have to take care of myself either today or later.

Socialized medicine is the same thing. Anyone who thinks it would be free is bonkers. nothing is free, especially if it comes from the govt. remember $900.00 hammers?

– yes I agree, but the crying shame is that they are not even aware of this. If they where aware, aware that they could help their patients better…..they would. But the sad fact is that they are NOT aware that simple, cheap alternative methods work. The Doctors role in life is to make people better and currently they have been trained incorrectly (or maybe incompletely?) The methods are based around companies supplying products and not around the patient getting better.

I am furious with the doctors for there inability to help me and my family. There ineptitude is causing me much pain and suffering.

I am also furious with “I don’t know who” for the fact that I had no idea about all these alternative medicine methods. Its only in the last 12 months that I discovered another world of getting better. Before that I had absolutely zero idea that there was another way…..100pct no idea……I was amazed when I first discovered it………and that is just plain wrong. Real wrong to the core wrong. Misinformation? Miseducation? Mislead? Misled? I guess that’s the governments fault. They are supposed to take care of us, and in that they have failed miserably.

I agree that most doctors are useless in many ways.

However, they do sometimes help people. $300 to fix a broken leg is a lot of money if you are unemployed and don't know where your next meal is coming from. Here you would get that mended for free on the NHS.

I am unapologetically socialist in my outlook and I feel that as a society of moral human beings (yes, even those of us who are not Christian), we have a duty to make sure that the basic needs of the less fortunate are met. Often their circumstances are not their fault and they do not want to be stuck there. Do we show them some care or do we let them fester in the gutter because they didn't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps?

If we abandon all responsibility to the society in which we belong, declare that taxes are evil, that access to health care is not a fundamental right, then we will end up with no society at all. I have many, many complaints about the system and the people who invented and run it. But I support it where it supports people who cannot otherwise support themselves.

Most states already have healthcare programs for the poor Linda. Medicaid is available to amost any person on welfare. That is free healthcare Linda. Homelss shelters feed the homeless and provide medical care, Various charitable groups provide free medical care.

Also, perhaps you are not aware of the fact that a hospital cannot refuse to treat anyone if they don't have insurance?

Access to healthcare may be a fundamental right, but it's not your fundamental right to expect me to pay for yours when you are able bodied and can work just like I do. I am not interested in socialized healthcare. I wouldn't use it. I am not interested in paying for thousands of others receive crappy care either. Neither am i interested in paying for thousands of others who are simply hypochondriacs and abuse any service available. Niether am i interested in funding insurance and pharmeceutical companies with tax dollars.

I give plenty of money to charity. Step up to the plate and do your own fair share and then you won't feel as though we have abandoned the poor. Because, as a society, we haven't. You obviously are not aware of the efforts being made by others.

Taxes are evil. Like bridges to no where to line the pockets of the friends of politicians who need my tax dollars as much as you need a day off.

Most of the sick people here are sick because of standardized medicine to begin with. The more you pay into schemes like that the less you'll have leftover for things to actually heal yourself of it, such as amalgam removal... insurance companies won't pay for it... chelation... insurance companies won't pay for it (most of the time) alternative medicine for cancer treatments... insurance companies won't pay for it. etc etc etc.

It's just another way to make the working poor poorer. Did you know, in say, oh 1975 or so, a cashier in a grocery store made about 6 or 7 dollars an hour. That cashier could rent a decent apt for say oh about $200.00 a month in NYC. In NYC, yes. He or she could buy a decent house in the suburbs for about $30,000.00 Did you know today, that same cashier or clerk might make $8.00 or $10.00 an hour. To rent a decent apt in NYC, it'll cost him or her about $1200.00 a month, at least. To buy a house in the suburbs, that same house that cost $30,000.00 in 1975, it'll now cost about $150,000.00 or more.

Tell me what the problem is Linda. Taxing the working class or middle class more surely won't help solve many problems.

It's no wonder people are sick though.

Maybe after you've worked a few years on a steady basis and see for yourself how little you have leftover of your meager hard earned dollars after taxes to take care of your basic necessities you'll feel differently. Right now maybe you are just poor and feel like you need help. After afew years of working hard you'll still not only be poor you be tired. You'll understand what a slave feels like. a slave to your own very messed up govt.

Give them your money, I'll opt out thanks. i haven't got any extra to give.

Stop making assumptions about me please. RAZD asked you the same.

You seem to be trying to make a case that some things cost a lot and that therefore people shouldn't pay taxes. The cost of housing here is very high too. I've been doing my family's finances for years and I'm quite aware of what things cost thanks.

The fact remains, however, that anyone who needs medical treatment here gets it. We know that many medications are useless and that doctors need to be trained in prevention and holistic medicine. But at the moment we're not living in an ideal world. Most people aren't aware of how to use diet and supplements to help themselves; and if we try to tell them, very few will listen. Do we just say to hell with it, because they're ignorant? Until society is more accepting of the real way to health, we may draw certain lines, but we can't abandon sick people altogether.

You don't have to worry about insurance at all here, what it will or won't pay for. In the past when I was looking for answers to various conditions from the allopathic system, I never paid a penny to see consultants, get scans, etc. I never have to pay to see my doctor. He is still sometimes useful.

If we all stopped paying taxes, there would be no money for police, firefighters, the roads we drive on, the schools we send our children to, and those hospitals which do occasionally save lives. I don't believe I have the right to waive my responsibility to help with those things just because I want to keep more of my own money.

If a society is to exist at all, then people need to feel a sense of belonging and they need to work together to help it function.

Having money or not having money makes little difference. Illness does not discriminate against the rich nor the poor. It is how we live our lives and what we do to get better that is fundamentally important.

At the moment we are not taught even the basics of how to look after ourselves, nor where to look if we are sick, except go to the doctors which are obviously failing because so many people are chronically ill. Our ignorance is killing us (as a society.)

I considered myself fairly normal upto 2006, then I discovered this alternative health methods for healing. Now I have learned how to take care of myself I am in the minority and cannot be considered normal. Wherever I go…..i see sickness everywhere, rife and rampant. People are not even aware that their lives are screwed and that they are the living dead. They just plod along struggling through life like an invalid with no idea of the simple measures they could take to get better.

Maybe rather than blaming someone, anyone, we should be learning and trying to change the way society helps people recover from illness?

Well………….that’s exactly what we are doing. We are educating ourselves. Being here, being now, talking, arguing, learning together, we are doing just that. We are changing society.

We are nothing special. We are not big leaders of the world, nor even leaders in our communities, we are not part of the government….we are just normal people. And if we normal people can learn what we’ve learned….then other can and other will too. Information is flowing fast around the world now and is available at the click of a mouse button.

When our friends see the results we have in getting better, some of them will ask how and why, who and when.

Its not as if society used to be in perfect health and used to live for 100 years! We never did, but maybe now that is within societies grasp?

Wow! I sound like a revolutionary! Who would have thought that I am infact a Thatcher’s child? A yuppy! A city trader driven by greed and money, born out of Margaret Thatcher’s revolution! LOL

I'm sorry Linda, but your assumptions simply are not true.

Police, firefighters, the roads we drive on, the schools we send our children to, and those hospitals which do occasionally save lives.... these things are not paid for by the federal government. They are paid for by the states. Most hospitals are privately owned, they are corporations, businesses. With the exception of some hospitals like the Veterans Administration, which has a terrible reputation. Fact is, the government cannot even keep it's promises to take care of military servicemen, many of them end up homeless, their medical care neglected or shoddy. Another fact, some states, such as Florida, do not have an income tax, but they use their sales taxes and other user fee taxes, which are just slightly higher than the sales taxes and user fee taxes in states that also have an income tax, to pay for police, firemen, roads, schools etc. And their services are just as good, sometimes better, than states that also require an income tax.

If medicine could find a cure for corporate greed, then perhaps something like socialized medicine would have a chance in a place like corporate America.

Alternative medicine is the new name for what used to be known, many times, as grandma's kitchen remedy. The herbs in your Essiac tea for instance Sunshine, are not new discoveries. Corporate medicine, pharmaceutical companies and the AMA, have worked relentlessly for years to give these things a bad name so that doctors are afraid to prescribe them and young doctors are no longer taught them. They have tried, and continue to try, to make alternative medicine illegal, they would love to see herbal remedies and vitamins outlawed so that everyone is forced to rely on them only. They have already been somewhat successful in that.

Things are run differently in our respective countries. As long as we are contributing in some way to the upkeep of the society in which we live, and helping to look after people less fortunate than ourselves, I'm not going to quibble too much about which tax it comes out of.

I agree with you Sunshine. The system must not be dismantled, but fixed. People like us can do the best we can. Maybe the escalating costs of medications will eventually force the medical establishment to consider alternatives which are cheaper and also healthier.

You are not going to quibble. ... Linda, that's a pretty lame answer which is only an attempt to cover up your ignorance of the issues.

You obviously didn't know the truth about those things till I just told you, admit it.

People like you, who don't really know the truth about thnigs , who buy into the hype and rhetoric of corporate greed, and corporate government, are one and the same with the people who are working very hard to outlaw alternative medicine.

Why are you here? shouldn't you be working for quackwatch?

I totally agree with the above Sos.


Don’t get overly tangled up in the ways our different countries systems work. The end result is the same but methods/routes/paths are different. What you just explained Sos is not familiar to me and is not how it works over here. However the end result is the same; chronically sick patients.

Right, I know. But the UK already has socialized medicine, and does not have 50 different states with 50 different little bureacracies already taking care of the needs of it's citizens. Here, intrinsically, the federal govt is really only suppose to oversee the union of the 50 states and provide national defense. That is why the US president is also known as the commander in chief, of the military. When it starts getting involved in the private lives of citizens it most always fails. Today also, corporate interests greatly influence political decisions and tax money trails and cannot be overlooked.

The discussion that somedaysoon started only uses the UK's NHS as an example of failure to begin a discussion of a like system of socialized medicine in the US. Which is why realizing that each state, by itself, already provides for it's people to great degree, is essential.

Plus, no one ever considers that these numbers, 20 million people without health insurance, whatever, include lots of people who don't want health insurance, like myself. We don't want it., we don'l want to be told how to treat our illneses, which doctors we can visit, which shots we should get etc. Maybe we've already had a lot of bad experiences with that route.

Lots of people have insurance through their jobs already, the poor and the elderly have medicaid, some states provide additional options, my state for instance. Catastrophic coverage is not that expensive compared to insurance which allows for all sorts of little inbetween checkups and prescription medications. some of us really are not into that. I bought a comprehensive health insurance policy when my daughter was small. it was expensive. we never used it once. We rarely get sick. I dropped it a good 10 years ago. That has put at least $60,000.00 back into our household over the years for taking better care of ourselves on a daily basis. Now, she gets health coverage through the school system for a mere $40.00/year., catastophic care, sports injuries, things like that. $40 dollars. Why do i need to pay an extra few thousand in taxes each year to cover things i am already paying for like this or through social security taxes? Why is social security bankrupt?

if my parents had not been so quick and proud to rely on their dental coverage to take care of our teeth as kids but had taught us simple things like brushing with salt water and baking soda to keep cavities away, my teeth and my overall health would be in much better shape today too.

I've really had it with mainstream medicine. I wound up in a hospital for 2-3 weeks once because of a bacterial infection I got from an injection in a doctor's office. A friend of mine died from a flu shot. I have never known anyone who was cured of cancer by chemo. I see stories on the news almost daily about dangerous prescription medicines or drugs that don't work. I see more stories about people who have recieved horrific dental care.

I'd be interested in helping fund a program that provided legal services and positive lawmaking to help people who have been screwed by hospitals, doctors and dentists.

but i have absolutely no interest in contributing any more to the maintenance of bad medicine, a junk pharmaceutical industry, dangerous dentistry and an overall healthcare system that is more focused on profits than people.

Oh good heavens. I buy into corporate greed do I? I've been talking about paying taxes to take care of people. Please explain what that has to do with corporate greed.

I do apologise for arguing without having all the facts to hand. Not seeing eye to eye with you has become so much of a habit that it's tempting to go on autopilot. Income tax in the US and the UK go for very different things. I've had a look at graphs for where the money in the US goes. Much of income tax there goes on military and veterans' pay. But there are other areas on which it is spent too, such as maintaining a judicial system, national transport, social security and other benefits for the elderly, research, etc. Surely what should be happening is for people to be making their voices heard about how they want this money to be spent -- less on military, more on social programmes. I still don't see how refusing to pay in at all is going to help.

Would you like to see the US dissolved into 50 different little countries? Do you think that would benefit its citizens? If not, there needs to be some kind of national framework, which is also financed. Personally I think a national government can be a great force for the good of its people if it has its priorities right. Sweden is a good example, worth looking into. If I spoke Swedish I'd be tempted to move there.

You do buy into corporate greed. Because so much of your federal tax dollars are actually paid to private contractors via the US govt (or UK as the case may be). And you are suggesting new ways for them to get at our money. However much $$$ you see directed to national defense, the large portion of that does not go to soldiers. It pays corpoarte interests, like Haliburton, to do things or make jets or whatever. The US airforce currently has a good portion of it's fleet grounded because of design defects. Will Lockheed Martin or whoever made the planes reimburse us? not likely. why do screws cost 10 times as much when purchased from a private US cintractor anyway? It it a way of saying screw you to the people of america? We seem to fight wars to fund contractors a lot of the time. They line their pockets with our tax dollars overseas while we bury our children at home. A lot of the money simply gets lost anyway, I'm sure you have an excuse for that too. Why are US farmers being paid NOT to grow crops and then we see on the news that a grain shortage is inevitable? tell me please.

Social security is not funded with income tax, it is funded with social security tax. they are 2 different taxes.

Actually I think you should learn to speak Spanish and move to Cuba. Either way, Cuba, Sweden or even the UK, you are just someone looking to reap free benefits at the expense of others who have worked for years for what they've got.

Reality will kick you in the behind eventually no matter where you go. Because nothing is ever really free. The govt would tax the air you breathe if they had a way to do it.

Hi everyone,

Boy, I wish I wasn't a lady. I'd like to be a drunken sailor right now and cuss and fuss till there is no tomorrow because I'm SO frustrated that I can't participate in this discussion the way I'd like. Sorry to complain, but I'm so sick with these infections that I can hardly see straight. However, I just couldn't resist signing on here to see what was new.

I'd just like to say that I stand with SoSick on everything she's said. My husband and I have opted out of insurance as well. Well, to be clear, we do carry insurance but that is for emergencies or surgeries -- catastrophic type coverage. All of the physicians that we see (integrative, holistic, alternative, conventional and functional medicine docs) have also opted out of participating in any insurance -- including medicare. The reason they have done this is because they are making a stand. They do not want insurance companies dictating to them how to treat their patients. They don't want insurance companies telling them what tests they are allowed to order, what medications/herbs/remedies to prescribe, or how to treat their patients. And these types of physicians are the ones we've had the best success with. They aren't afraid to utilize elite labs, unique healing modalities, or to just rely on herbal therapies alone, when warranted.

In other words, these physicians (and the patients who buy their services), don't believe in rationing medical care in any way.

In a perfect world this would be free and everyone could partake of it. Instead, the reality is, we are a Fallen world and as SoSick has said, "nothing is free."

Linda, I do agree with you that we all need to try and do our part for the better good of everyone. That we should try and do our share, particularly in helping those who are less fortunate then ourselves. In fact, my particular faith demands that I do that. And I try my best to do my part.

A socialized medical system here would be unconstitutional. It's that simple.

Back when our ancestors here were English subjects and before the Revolutionary War was fought and won, the Declaration of Independence was issued and the U.S. Constitution was ratified, the 13 Colonies that were established here did, indeed, consider themselves to be 13 different countries.

However, in 1789, the 13 different countries decided for the greater good, to unite in order to provide for the public defense. And it was at that time that the 13 different clocks began to beat as one in some areas. What ensued afterwards were enormous growing pains on what type of Government we should have, whether or not to have a National Bank or National Fund to pay for the public defense, etc. And I daresay we're still feeling those growing pains.

The States were still in large part responsible for overseeing themselves in most other ways. And, for those U.S. Civil War buffs out there ... well, they will be the first to tell you that the Civil War did not initiallly have anything to do with slavery. Rather, it was about States' rights.

The issues of States' individual rights still are fought over. We are still 50 individual States, each State having it's own set of laws in addition to the Federal Laws.

Unfortunately, an awful lot of people are unaware of what their rights are as U.S. citizens and residents of a particular State. And, alot of people curiously seem to actually want a Big Brother-type Government to take care of their every need so that they won't have to be accountable or work in a responsible fashion. I guess they feel it's easier to let someone else take care of things.

Which leads me to this . . . just as SoSick explained so well . . . the Government is not capable and has no intention of taking care of everything. Just look at the deplorable way our U.S. "Government" handled hurricane Katrina here.

And if our Government were to try and take over our health care, we'll be in a far worse position then we are now as far as medical care.

I love to discuss these things and all of you have made interesting comments. I wish I could contribute more because I could discuss this particular subject until the cows come home. lol!

I want to thank you all also for giving me the nudge in your posts. You don't know that you did this. I've been so angry with doctors lately that I've forgotten to recall the good physicians that have actually done wonderful things for my family. I shouldn't put those talented physicians and alternative care practitioners in the same basket as the majority of the crappy medical profession.

I'm thinking particularly of the neurosurgeon who saved my precious daughter's life two years ago. She was in a horrific car crash and broke her neck in two places. She's alive today by the Grace of God and by the talented intervention of this surgeon. In fact, the hospital staff, emergency crews (paramedics, etc.), were so awestruck that my daughter survived this injury that there was a constant stream of visitors and onlookers while she was in the ICU . . . they all came to see the "girl who survived."

Instead of being so onery about (all doctors), I should be thankful for the few that have been positively awesome.

Anyway, thanks to you all for a great discussion.

Hugs,
SomedaySoon (Sharon)

Hi I could only read a little of this thread but I thought I'd put a plug in here for all USA voting citizens. It very much pertains to all that your talking about.

Live Free or Die

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul400.html
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/health-freedom/
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/53/dietary-supplements-and-health-freedom/

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dito.gif" alt="" />

Thank you Someday soon for adding some complexity to this discussion. I appreciate the respectful way you present your opinions.

If I lived in the US? I'd pay income tax because much of it still goes to important areas. I do not support the war spending but I would not feel it was ethical to pull out of taxes altogether. You see, at the bottom of it all is that little piece of bait saying, "I can have more money if I can think of enough reasons to justify to myself why giving that money to the government is evil." I would be voting for people who would spend that mone more ethically.

I don't think any of us are going to agree about the role of national government here because these are basic ways in which conservatives and liberals disagree, and I don't think any of us are about to shift our political stances any time soon. I would just say that there are good examples of national governments using tax money to look after citizens, here and elsewhere. I had to move away from the US to learn about them because the views I grew up with were very insular and generally unaware of what was going on in much of the rest of the world.

If the NHS pulled back from spending £££s on medications and prescribed more alternative therapies and vitamins, then I would be in wholehearted support. It can be a huge force for good if the right changes come about. Already you can get homeopathy and acupuncture on the NHS, so progress would appear to be slowly happening.

In the meantime, if any family member were suddenly taken ill for any reason, including my husband who is a walking heart attack waiting to happen despite my own best efforts, I'm glad I'd be able to get the medical care they'd need without worrying about whether insurance will pay.

I am receiving and living off 216.euros & 80
cents each week from social welfare.I am not able to work
and am ashamed about this,but unfortunately I cannot work at the moment.
I am trying to apply for a medical card also,which I've never had before but just to use for any medical tests or emergencies but I usually go the alternative route and this would not be covered by a medical card anyway.
I am living rent free at the moment because my Dad is letting us live in a flat he owns.And so that is the only reason we can get by on 216.80
I am not complaining I know how lucky I am but I am always just scraping by,there's never any extra because of the dentist/doctor bills from last year etc etc and the supplements
It's scary situation to be so dependant on handouts and have no stable cash flow,especially to have something put aside for my son.we have no money in savings.

With the exchange rate, if they gave people on welfare 216. euros or about 300.00+/week here in the US, no one making 8 or 9 dollars an hour or less would work. Considering taxes, it would make working for 10.00 dollars an hour kind of silly too.

I guess in america people are used to scraping by then. That's very generous, 216. euros per week. Wages here for unskilled labor, even a lot of skilled labor, really hasn't kept pace with inflation the past 30 years or so.

I am not sure, but 216. euros/300+ dollars/week is probably close to what the welfare system might give a person they feel is qualified, per month, in the US.

In states like Michigan where workers unionized and got themselves a respectable $18/hr or so for their labor, a lot of the industry simply packed up and moved to Mexico or china or somewhere else overseas. Ireland does have a good reputation for attracting tech industry and other jobs becaiuse of it's low taxes on businesses.

There will probably be a huge nursing shortage in a couple years because nurses, who don't make the big bucks dpctors do, are afraid of things like the MRSA/staph going around in hospitals/nursing homes etc. They might make anywhere from $12-18 and hour. So it's not really worth it for them to stay and risk their health and the health of their families.

quote from LindaLu
" If I lived in the US? I'd pay income tax because much of it still goes to important areas."

Sadly all our income tax goes to pay the "interest" on the national debt.
None goes to important areas.
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/8/8/180328.shtml?s=lh

Heh. the US govt is borrowing money from China to pay the national debt. China owns the united States.

I think China and some Saudis lent bunches of money or bought a good portion of citibank and other investment companies banks recently to help them bail themselves out of their greedy ARM schemes that caused so many people to lose their homes this past year. so they own those too.

In the meantime I can't help but wonder if we'll be sending a few billion dollars to saudi arabia and china this year again to help them buy more of our country.

we can all get $10 an hour jobs at walmart I suppose. Sell the chinese toys, pay our tyaxes to them too. Why do we even need the US govt as a middle man to send our money overseas anymore?

VeggieMom, this is obviously contrary to the generally available information on all mainstream sources. I can't comment and I can't rule anything out, but this is a pretty big claim. I'd like to see someone dig around and come up with some more concrete proof that most tax money is being used in this way. It's one thing to toss ideas and conspiracy theories around, and another to be able to substantiate those ideas in some way.

I've had a look at reviews of this fim and while people seem to think it probably contains a kernel of truth, most agree that it degenerates into unconvincing conspiracy-mongering. A few residents of this forum will probably love it for that reason.

It's hardly a conspriracy theory Linda. it's in the news, on the news, all the time.

You obviously are NOT paying attention, or even thinking. Perhaps you have a new and personal explanation for the national debt and how it is dealt with?

I rarely see a news show that doesn't mention it.

The biggest conspiracy monger here is you... stating all the time that everyone is wrong and you are right. The whole world is wrong and Linda is right, everything Linda knows nothing about is a conspiracy. You seem to live in almost total isolation from the rest of humanity.

wake up.

My heartfelt thanks for your usual respectful comments. It's fantastic to experience so much Christian warmth.

IMHO I'm not the one telling people that they are sick because they are being punished by God for offending him in some way. I'm not the one claiming to have a hotline to God. Think a little before you tell people about how self-righteous they are.

Respect is something you earn Linda. Simply wagging your tongue to express your momentary emotions won't accomplish it.

Quit grinding your anti-God axe everywhere you go. You have quite a few stinky chips on your shoulder.

Read the newspaper once in a while. You might learn something you weren't already born knowing.

Sos,
216.80 does not seem like alot in Ireland where the living costs are extremely ridiculously high.
I spend all my money on house bills &health bills as I'm sure most people on here do and we eat mostly organic food as I am determined to get healthy & become independent again.
A trip to the doctor,one visit is 50 euros.
Alternative treatment if you choose this as I have done costs more,usually varying between 60 & 100 euros per consultation.And so for someone who is sick and has to pay all this extra it does not seem like alot.
Given a choice who would choose to be sick & have to depend on social welfare or be healthy enough to go to work every day?Work is important & honourable in my mind.
I am ashamed to be taking handouts & really feel stuck in a rut.
I feel I'm doing all I can possibly do to get healthy.

I think that man who is responsible for "fast food nation" & "sicko"
did a documentary film about a couple trying to live off the minimum wage in USA,they lived in a freezing apartment &they became ill.Could not eat properly or afford proper treatment.
I will try & find out the name of it.

I'm sorry you are suffering like this Sunflower. It sounds hard. Good for you for making sure you can at least get yourselves some healthy food. I'm glad my UK taxes go to help people in your situation but I wish more could be done; as you say, allopathic medicine, however cheaply it is available to people, is more often a curse than a blessing.

You will end up getting out of the "rut" while many others will stay stuck there -- because you are doing the right things for your health. I hope you will keep us posted on your progress <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Linda Lou said...


With all due respect to the author, this is a fantastically naive statement and one that could only come within the framework of a socialist belief system.

The IRS code is something I have spent much time studying, and I will say that it is the single largest financial fraud in recorded history.

You see, the goal of socialism throughout history was to funnel private money into the hands of big business (fascism), and this has always been done through government services and entangling contracts. It is contrary to freedom and prosperity.

The globalist socialistic agenda is bringing the U.S. to its knees and is supported by the blind faith of those who forget history.

I'll refrain from writing a book at this time (maybe tomorrow <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

From Freedom To Fascism

One Nation Under Siege

FORUM: Vote Fraud

It's not a lot here either where costs are extremely high. But it's a lot more than social services provides here, as far as I am aware. Of course no one would choose to be sick, but it is the equivalent amount of what someone making 8-10/hr in the USA lives on... and lots of people only make 8-10 dollars an hour, after taxes, here, lots. So essentially I am just making a comparison, not a judgement of your situation. By all means sunflower, if your gov gives you that for support, take it. It sure beats sending tax money to Saudi Arabia or Russia.

It's actually quite a bit more than most elderly people in the USA get for their monthly social security payments too, adjusted to the exchange rate. The exchange rate is 1 Euro = 1.46 dollars. So 868 euros equals 1267 dollars. What that means is that you need 1267 dollars to buy what 868 euros buys. Most elderly people get only around 400 - 600. dollars a month or so social security. The average cost of an apartment in any city in the USA, except NYC which is a lot higher, is about $750 a month for a halfway decent place. You can find some lower, most higher. Doesn't include utilities. Forget groceries on hat budget. I see a lot of elderly people in the grocery store that are squeaking by, I see quite a few even working there for about $7.00 an hour. Expecting the govt to take care of them in their retirement years is a real bad joke. The govt even taxes them on their social security payments. People who end up in nursing homes with only medicaid to pay the costs have to go to the cheapest places with the worst reputations. pretty much a death sentence. So we already have a pretty good idea of what socialized care/medical care looks like in the USA from that perspective.

Russ, I don't think you know where I'm coming from when i talk about socialism, though I believe I've only mentioned it once. You seem very keen to explain to me why you think it is one of the evils of the world. You have not even asked me what I meant by the word, since there are different views on the subject.

This site gives a good explanation of what I mean when I say I have a socialist outlook. I particularly like the line at the end of the page:


I think we should tax the hell out of the rich, and put the money to good use for the welfare of others in the society. It is the responsibility of a strong, ethical government to do this. Socialism was born in the days of class politics and mass industrialisation, when people were slaving away in factories to pad the pockets of fat cats. Unfortunately we seem to be coming full circle and in many ways we see a similar situation again, the union movement having been largely destroyed and cheap labour being farmed out to impoverished countries. These sorts of inequalities in a society are unacceptable.

Please explain to me how this view is evil or how anyone who holds it is essentially trying to destroy American society.

Euro’s 216.80

That is an incredibly small amount of money to live off over here in Europe.

The exchange rate method you suggested does not work like that in the real world. Sure, if Sunflower lived in USA and converted that euro’s 216.80 into dollars and lived off that…. in the USA…then sure….looks good on paper. But the reality is everything costs double over here.

I spend at least euro’s 216.80 per week on food alone for my family of 3 people. That does not include my lunch at the office where I spend minimum £50 per week.

I just asked my wife......we spend £200 (267 euro’s) per week on food alone for me and my family(incl my lunch).

Dollars to pounds = double it.

Filled up my car with petrol….£70….thats $140

Seriously 216.80 euro is very little.

You have my respect Sunflower.

I think Americans view “Socialists” as something different than we do. Maybe they view that word in the same context as the word “communists?” The kind of replies you are getting indicate that our American friends feel differently about this word. I don’t know, but I looks like you are talking cross purposes.

I think taxes should be lowered so the rich can spend lots of money. I doing so they support the community they live in. The government has shown its complete ineptitude in spending my money. I certainly don’t feel I get any value for money for the tax I pay. Tax has gone up 8-9 pct since Labour been in power and what did I benefit from that?

Oh come on Mr. Trickle-down. This is hooey supported by the wealthy. Most of them invest their money, it never gets converted into anything concrete, and they like to spend it abroad as well. You yourself buy a lot off the internet, which would not be your local community.

The idea of redistribution is that the well-off help support those who are not so well-off. Maybe we don't see huge benefits ourselves, but others are helped by our money. If we're going to have a health system then I'd rather pay for an NHS and hope that it can be changed from within, rather than push for a privatised system. I'm happy to support people on benefit because many of them honestly want to be helped to get back to work when it's possible for them to do so. I'm also happy to support our basic services like education and policing.

Having said that, then I do believe there are fairer ways to tax people, and better ways to spend the money (i.e. an NHS that truly heals people, and a better public transport system). More should be paid through income tax, less through the "stealth taxes" that keep creeping up. And more of the taxes on a car should come out of petrol tax, which will more fairly charge people for the amount they are driving. The aristos should be taxed, taxed and taxed again so that they sell some or all of their land to people who will put it to better uses, and maybe we'll get rid of the lot of them altogether <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Guess I'm a typical Old Labourite. You're right, most Americans wouldn't understand that. I wouldn't have, until I came here. I'm not a gun totin' Commie Hitler-Stalin supporter guys, I just want this to be more of a fair society for everyone to live in.

They do tax the hell out of the rich. Rich isn't much these days anyway, you don;t have to make very much in order to have to hand over 30 percent or so of your income to the IRS.

It's quite an attitude though. I guess if 'rich' people said let the poor rot it would be a different matter huh?

I guess if we get rid of all the 'rich' people then the govt would have all the money, it would have to go somewhere... and gee whiz we could all live like chinese peasants and try to get by on two dollars a week.

good thinking Linda. I hope you get your wish in your personal life at least, God forbid you should ever make a living wage. What a hypocrite you would be then.

Why don;t you go find a job in a sweatshop somewhere? Live an idyllic bohemian life in a cold water flat and die in your own spittle like a good citizen.

You've also failed to mention Linda, that your hope as a public school teacher is to make a living being paid from tax money.

not like i'm suggesting you have just a tad of a conflict of interests or anything.

I think I've pieced together, from your above comments, that you are trying to say that you don't support the idea of redistribution. I obviously disagree for the reasons I stated above. By the way, I didn't say anywhere that we should get rid of the rich, just tax them. The aristos are in a class of their own. You've heard of our royal family and their lord and lady friends, yes? Wasn't there a reason why the US founding fathers decided not to perpetuate an aristocracy?

I see no conflict of interest in working as a public servant. It's gratifying to know that the work I do simply helps people and does not go toward lining some corporate manager's pockets. I also pay my taxes like everyone else. Yes the service I provide is funded by the government. Doctors, police, firefighters and judges are also public servants. I think these are rather essential jobs. Would you hurl the same vitriol at them as well?

Right, you said 'tax the hell out of them' quote unquote. And then you went on about your disdain of the 'aristos'...

The firefighters and doctors in my town are not paid by tax money. They are private citizens/organizations, paid by the private citizens of the community.

I think you'd look far and wide to find a judge who would make such comments as you have, judges are paid pretty well... so not likely they'd say that, could hurt themselves... and police..... well I cannot comment except to say i have never heard one make such statements either..

Either way, yeah, if anyone of them said that to me they would get the same response. Most people have more tact though.

They also realize that without the shopkeepers they would have to make their own shirts and shoes.

Sadly. you aren't really a brit and obvioulsy do not share their love of their aristocracy either. But Brits are famous for their love and respect of the royal family.

Perhaps you need to ask yourself why instead of just condemning everyone who has a little bit more than you do.

No, I do not believe in 'redistribution' on the level you suggest. I believe a man, or woman as the case may be, should work if they want to eat. If we all sat around waiting for our share of handouts the world would be in very sad shape.

Use Oprah Winfrey for an example. She is one of the richest women in America, she was an abused girl born in poverty. Even Bill Clinton came from a pretty shoddy background. It's one thing to say the slaves should be freed and the sick should be care for. It's another altogether to suggest that when a person becomes successful we should take the hard earned rewards of their success away.

I think you are very immature. It's obvious you have never worked much or succeeded at anything.

What a gem. Thank you so much. Once again, I'm basking in the Christian warmth and love.

I don't think you understand that there are a lot of people in Europe who believe as I do. It's maybe less common in America. My husband is as much of a republican as I am -- in the UK sense of wanting the aristocracy to be eradicated. You are in error if you think that there is overhwhelming support for them here.

I fail to see what point you are making about tax money supporting public servants. Sure, taxes come from working people. More tax money should come from wealtheir people who can afford to pay. If you think I am saying all these things just because I am glad to be bleeding money off people like a parasite, you are again in error. I don't see how it is somehow more noble to work oneself to the bone so that the owner of a company can buy themselves a new luxury car or somesuch, as my husband has to do.

As far as complaining about 30% tax, count your blessings. In the UK in 1974, the top rate of income tax was 83%, with a 15% surcharge on "unearned income" (investments and dividends). 750,000 people were eligible to pay this top rate. Then Margaret Thatcher came along and turned it all on its head.

I don't think many people would support such a high rate of tax in the modern world, but plenty are saying that current top rates (40%) here are too low -- and that they apply to too many people. Currently you fall into the top tax bracket if you earn £40,000. Once this was quite a substantial income but it has been frozen for a number of years and now many middle-class people are starting to have to pay. We also pay something called National Insurance, an 11% flat tax on earnings by middle-income earners (none for lower incomes, just 1% for higher incomes) which is income tax in all but name.

I'd be happy to see National Insurance joined up with income tax, a top rate of 60-70% for the rich, graded down accordingly for lower incomes. We could have a world-class health and transport system and welfare state that looks after the needs of its citizens from birth to death.

What, did I not stroke your ego just right? Quit grinding your anti-Christian axe.

You are terribly naive. You are young, someday, if your husband works hard he may be the owner of a small company, or at least a manager of one. in fact, it's highly likely he will move up in his rank, not down as the years go by.

And if you get your way, by the time he is making a decent living, you can pay 83% of your income in taxes. Lets see, after years of struggling to make a mere $40,000 a year, that will leave you with a couple bucks to buy groceries, after taxes.

Which by the way, will be appreciated very much by all the bureaucrats and royals who have no other way to support themselves except by convincing people like you that paying enormously high taxes is your honorable civil duty.

I get the impression you would love to have a little microchip implanted in your neck as a collar too.

Tell me something, in your world, when the famers no longer bother to plant their fields because the time and effort do not pay off, does the government come along and force them to the fields with whips and chains too? Or do they simply send fleets of mercenaries to plunder the fields of little countries on other continents? Irish potatoes only go so far. It's no wonder the Irish farmers have a huge drinking problem. The pub is a far better way of life than slavery in the fields. Perhaps you could go to Indonesia or India and set up a sweatshop for children to make rugs for the people of England.

At any rate you are the only person arguing that socialized medicine or socialized anything for that matter, works, if you haven't noticed.

Hi,
I watched this film yesterday, I recommend it to anyone who has not yet seen it.
It's Michael Moore looking at the healthcare system in USA,
he visits France ,Canada,UK, Cuba and documents the healthcare in those countries.
Excuse me if anyone has already talked about this,I did not read all of this thread ,only parts of it..

Definitely recommend a look at "Sicko" for anyone interested.

Just did a search and there is a thred on the mercury forum all about Sicko...

Yes thanks, Sunflower, getting back to the original topic here. The writer of the Telegraph article clearly hasn't seen the film.

I will with you, when you display some evidence of the "love your neighbour" tenet so central to Jesus' message. Quite frankly I find it hypocritical that someone who professes to be so deeply Christian is so intolerant of others' beliefs and so consistently insulting to people like me who do not share them.

I deeply respect the Christians I have known who have a deep love for humanity. You said yourself that respect is something which is earned.

My husband has worked himself to the bone for 22 years and he is not going to go any "further" because he is not part of the breadhead ethos whereby you can go up the corporate ladder if you have drinks with the right people and wear the right suits. He's too genuine and down-to-earth. Neither of us has the business sense or knowledge, either, to start up our own business. The majority of people in the working population could say similar things I think. We simply cannot aspire to be high-earning managers or business owners. The American Dream doesn't come true for everybody and there need to be safeguards in place. You seem to be telling me that everyone ought to simply work hard enough to earn lots of money, which will happen through the fruits of their labours, and then they will be happy. And you tell me I am naive?

How does any of this equate to farmers ceasing to work in the fields? If they don't earn mega-bucks, they don't get taxed mega-bucks. And with a welfare state in place, there would be safeguards in case their crops fail.


Please explain how this has anything to do with what I've said here?


Until RAZD came along, I was also the only person regularly posting pro-evolution information in that particular forum. The peer pressure is killing me.

Excuse me Linda, but how are we suddenly involved in discussion about christianity here?

Quit grinding your anti-Christian axe.

Jesus was a lot more intolerant of people like you than I am. Read the bible. Dogs don't eat from the table and I shouldn't even be throwing pearls at swine should I? You are not my neighbor either btw. An ocean separates us if you haven't noticed.

Get over yourself. Everyone else has moved on. This is a new topic.

For the record though, you are the first, the one and only, person I have ever met in 48 years who wants to and enjoys paying taxes... or did I get your message wrong... is it that you don't actually want to pay taxes, you want others to pay taxes so you can live off them? Is that because standing on the corner with a hat is embarrassing or is it because you have no desire to succeed in life and therefore no one else should be able to either?

You really do know zilch about history don't you? I don't know what it has to do with anything I guess, potato famines just come and go. them skinny irish drunks. tea companies fail on rainy days, what the heck is a mercenary george?


please, stop making sense.

Hi Linda. I am a little behind on reading posts. I have been laying low recovering, not avoiding this conversation. I do find it very interesting, although the way you two fight is….is distracting.
You are talking as if the ”rich” are some mythical bunch of people living in palaces perched, untouchable, on the top of a hill somewhere, lounging around not doing any work. In my world/life, most people pay tax at the top level.
You don’t have to be rich to pay a lot of tax nowadays. I pay 40pct tax plus anything else they can throw at me.
That money comes out of my pocket and I assure you I feel every penny that they take away from me. It is real money. It comes out of MY wallet. The Government takes it away from ME, and I object to paying so much, to get so little back.
I work really hard, have done all my life, everything I have, I have earned myself. I have learned some skills that enable me to earn a bit more that some others and for that I get rewarded by high taxes. I pay double the tax you pay and it pisses me off.
I wholeheartedly agree with paying taxes. I live in this country and community and I am safe and happy, and for that privilege I pay tax, which is cool, but I object to paying too much tax.
Mr Trickle-down.....lol…yes I guess that does describe me pretty well. I am currently having some building work done on my house and the trickle-down is a river of money flowing into the local (English) builders doing the work. But that’s my choice.
I guess if you don’t earn that much, its easy to talk of “those rich people over there” but it is different when its your own money and then the government takes it away in such large amounts for so little return. (That is not meant to be condescending, but I can’t think of another way to say it.)
I believe that I am in a much better position to decide how I spend my money. I know what I need and I know what I want. The government has decided that I don’t.

I agree with you, it's nice to get back to the earlier topic. Thanks for sharing your opinion here Sunshine.

I think we probably understand each other's relative political positions, living here as we do. So I don't need to explain "Old Labour" and welfare state to you. I'm simply someone who believes in higher taxes for the rich, abolition of the aristos, and redistribution by an ethically responsible government. Someone who, let's say, owns their own company and who has millions of pounds worth of assets, should pay their fair share in my book. They used to.

We don't pay half the taxes that you do, we pay the same actually. I looked it up and the top tax rate now starts at £34,000, which isn't that much higher than the average national income. We feel it as well, and it was especially difficult when only my husband was working. Two or more people living together, each earning just below the top tax rate, don't have to pay the top tax rate. Also unfair, if you ask me.

You say that you feel you see very little in return for what you do pay. Can I ask how you would like to benefit more personally from your tax money? Better transport? Better schools? More police? The problem is, if a conservative government got into power and slashed taxes, where would the money come from for those things, plus others like the NHS? We would see a reciprocal slash in services. People generally like it when politicians say they will cut taxes, but there are always consequences further down the road.

me too.

I really think there's more going on than meets the eye. The govt takes in enough money righj now to provide health care, but they do so much extravagent spending they are always broke.

in the US, in every county in every state, there is a dept of health and human services. You can go there for basic things, for free, no insurance required. they provide immunizations, all of that if that's your thing. It's been that way for years. If you really want full health insurance and really cannot afford it you just qualify yourself for medicaid, all you have to do fill in the forms. It's been that way for years.

The problem is not really access to medical care in this country, it's the cost of medical care and that is what needs to be dealt with. But it seems some people would prefer we just throw money at doctors and pharmaceutical comapanies. Personally I think thats a very bad idea. A lot sick people that come to this website, the majority of them, are sick from overzealous dentists or doctors using expensive mainstream medicine, vaccines, dentistry... people's health is worse not better a lot of the time when unnessary mainstream medicine is encouraged.

Right now people pay generally 20-30% or so of their income to the govt. When I was a kid tax rates were much higher, about 50% for people making over $40-50,000 a year. That is what my parents dealt with. they made a decent living. But when all was said and done after taxes we were far from 'rich'. We were a basic woking middle class family. A good deal of the time there was hardly any food in the house. My mom always had dinner on the table at 6pm but you never walked away stuffed and if you got hungry in between meals that was just tough. There were 6 of us, living on about 20,000 a year, after taxes, in the 1970's. With inflation as it's gone from then to now, you'd see a lot of people in the same situation today, but much worse if they raise taxes. Because things cost 3 to 4 times as much more now but wages have not kept pace.

A lot of industry has left the country because of high taxes. That also needs to be dealt with. taxes need to be ,lowered, not raised, employers need to be encouraged to pay more competitive wages to workers, not scared away by the tax man. Employer taxes go up substantially when they pay their employees more... unemployment insurance, workman's compensation to pay your hopsital bills if you get hurt or sick from your job, state and federal taxes, social security... employers are taking the hit all across the board, they pay a big part (and all of some of them) of all those taxes for the workers. In a lot of places in the US because of all the taxes and other requirements, employers will actually hire people for 89 days and then let them go because after 90 days the unemployment insurance and workman's comp kick in bigtime, and it's expensve. A lot of people do not have money for their own insurance because of the burden placed on employers by the government already, no other reason. Employers are afraid to hire and pay a competitive wage.

It should be illegal for doctors and dentists to bill at rates of $500 and $1000 an hour and more.

It should also be illegal for pharmaceutical companies to charge $100 or $200 for medications that only cost them a couple dollars to make.

The problem with healthcare in the US is not access it's greed on the part of people who say they care about people.

I forgot to mention employer funding for health insurance and 401 K plans above too.

Hi Linda, ahhhhh….i’m so busy…..apologies late replies.

Yes, I think we understand each other pretty well, our views are standard views over here in England, although obviously we are on opposite sides of the fence.

Personally I like the royal family, the prestige they give the English is very high and well worth the agro and money. I have travelled all over the world, to places where the only thing people know about our country is just that. Was in South korea, the only thing they knew about our whole country was the royal family and Lady Di. Tony blair, Maggie Thatcher, Scotland…..nothing….absolutly zero knowledge of our lifes…except the royal family. They had never heard of france! Not surprising really because we don’t know anything about the South Korean people!

Since Labour have come to power, 9-10 years now, taxes, including stealth taxes, have gone up 8-9pct. I don’t know the exact figures. What have I gained?

Schools in my area are so bad I have to send my daughter to a better school and I pay school fees. And before you say I should move area….i did move.

The hospitals are like third world hospitals. They are overcrowded, dirty and old. Just being in the hospital is disgusting to me. The waiting lists are an embarrassment. All these MRSA bugs are everywhere too. So I have to pay health insurance because going to these hospitals is something I am not willing to do.

Transport is ok, but my train season ticket is £2k per year, i.e. I pay for that.
Roads are congested, but manageable.

Police are reactionary only. They are not proactive. Simple things like having a local policeman walking “his beat” has dramatic effects, people feel safe when they see a policeman walking around where they live. But they don’t do what I consider to be simple policing for the better of the community.

For the extra taxes I pay……….I see no return.

However, I don’t have the answers to sorting this out. It’s a minefield and change will take a long time. A new government will certainly change some things, mostly likely not very much, most likely just more spin, spin, spin.

Certainly the health service is completely compromised.
Why does the UK need such a massive company? They are wasting money left right and centre. It is not possible for organisations that big to operate without wasting lots and lots of money. Do u see the billions they spend…….
It is so big, they English people no longer know how to look after themselves. They just use the NHS. If people had to make a choice, had to learn, they might help themselves. At the moment English people do whatever the doctors tell them to do or take. English people don’t know any other way to get better except doing what the doctor tells them.
And…..did u see what the government did with Northern Rock? (sos…Northern Rock is a bank that made some bad bets) they just signed away £55billion.
£55billion……………………..now that is a lot of money
That is £2,000 for every man, woman and child in this country.
Business is business and thats business that company got wrong and it should be let to go bust……not shelling out £55bn of out money. Wrong wrong wrong
Labour Gotta go, I don’t think conservative will do much better, but whatever………… change is needed because labour keep getting it wrong.
….bit of a ramble…..oh well……

Hi Sunshine,

Yes, I'm busy too. And still struggling to stay awake in the evenings. I think I'm getting a bit burned out with this subject; I like to put the world to rights now and then, as my husband calls it, which usually means a chat in which I share my frustrations with someone and then move on. Politics isn't a permanently lit fire within me and I'm not actually hugely passionate about it. I feel largely powerless because the political system is so distant from the life of the average person. I do advocate a strong ethical government, ideally, but I also think that politicians should be more accountable to the people who vote for them. They shouldn't be in politics as a career, they shouldn't have to be wealthy in order to stand for office, and they shouldn't even be members of a political party. They should be free to vote the way their constituents want them to, not the way the whips tell them.

While we have political parties, though, I have to say I'm at a loss. Another frustration. Old Labour is gone and I have never liked Tony Blair's "modernised" Thatcher wannabes. Tories? Never. Lib Dems? What do they even stand for? Voting Green would probably be my option of choice. Locally though, we are on the fringes of a conservative rural area and the only candidates we ever get for local elections are Tories and Lib Dems.

About taxes -- they really can be a powerful tool for influencing society. Maybe they need to be used more judiciously. Already there are high taxes on things that are "luxuries," and unhealthy ones at that -- alcohol and cigarettes. It seems silly to lift taxes on those, we already have a drinking problem as a nation. I think it would be very innovative to tax junk food heavily and at the same time subsidise healthy foods like fruit and veg. And taxes can be used as incentives for so many things. Why not give tax money, or tax breaks, to workplaces that encourage green transport, or give employees access to a gym on or off premises. Currently I'm being encouraged to marry and have a family because I get married couples' allowance, child tax credit and child benefit, though I can't honestly say any of those things make much difference to me. Being American, though, I still can't get over the government giving me a bit of money every month to help me raise my child. I've spent it on things like clothes, shoes, vitamins, etc, and I'm still laughing because Uncle Sam would never dream of helping me in that way. Other EU countries are more generous still. We are one of the only nations where stay-at-home mothers don't get some kind of government stipend to encourage them to raise their own children in the early years. It was very hard for us to do that for 5 years and rather lonely too, because so many other mothers go straight back to work.

I won't argue with your comments about the NHS wasting money. I would still like to see changes from within though. They need to use a little more vitamin C and a lot less medication. I also won't argue that London is reputed to have some pretty bad schools, but there's a host of reasons for that. A big one is that teachers are priced out of the housing market there and good staff are hard to recruit. There's actually no other good reason I can think of as to why a multicultural school should be failing simply because it's multicultural and in a city. There are some outstanding multicultural schools here in Leicester -- and some with dreadful reputations as well. If I had the money, I might be tempted to send my daughter to a private school, but only because I think class sizes in public schools are too large. I'd rather see her in a class of 15 than 30. But her teachers are lovely and I think they do good work with the children. I think I'd also have issues about the sorts of people she'd be mixing with in a private school. Personally I'd rather she was with ordinary people from a variety of backgrounds, which is a principle of comprehensive education.

I noticed that Russ started a new area for political discussions. Doubtless that is where this kind of discussion belongs. I'm not sure I feel like going there to be honest though -- i think I've said my peace for now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> As it is, we go from one day to the next and not a lot changes in the grand scheme of things.

I have been Tory blue through and through my whole life, but I may vote green next time. I have learned SO much these last 12 months! Green is the only thing that comes close now.

Yeah, me too, I don’t normally talk politics, I don’t normally get involved with anything else but health issues on these forums…..and here I am rambling on about politics…..that can only mean one thing…….i am feeling better <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

must be because if the liver flush and/or castor oil packs and/or winning the football <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I found it very hard to discuss politics in the forum format. It is such a complicated subject, with so many possible points of view…very difficult to get the point across clearly or quickly. Anyway….less of this baloney now