News you won't see in controlled mainstream media.

Most of us know that this past Saturday night, Aug 16th., there was an interview : "2008 U.S.Presidential Elect/ Obama VS.McCain" with Pastor Rick Warren ---
I found it most interesting that the Commentator began by saying "the questions that WON'T be asked/addressed will be those of abortion, and personal faith issues". Well, he surely missed that one! The first few questions asked were 'what their personal faith matters are, how do they feel about abortion, and what about same sex marriage?'

We in the United States will be voting this year for our next President in our Country for the next 4 years. This is an extremely important issue for us. The United States was founded on Biblical Concepts. However, sadly to say, we have drifted far away from our faith in our Creator.

The interview was re-run last night on CNN. Both parties said they believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior. Both parties said they believe life begins at conception. Both parties said the definition of marriage is: The marriage/uniting of one male and one female in holy wedlock.

However, they did not agree on the 'abortion' matter. It seems Obama was very vague on his toughts of, if and when abortion should be permissable. McCain is 100% against abortion.

When we go to the 'Polls' to vote in November, prayerfully, whether we are registered as Repulican or Democrat, I ask that each of you will vote in a Biblical attitude.

This is a prominent/crucial time in the USA for who we allow to take office as our President, sit in the White House, and run this country. I ask you, please pray that our Lord Jehovah God will forgive our Country and grant us favor to restore our land to living His way.

Whether you vote on the Republican or Democratic ticket, when you go into that voting booth, and you are alone, please consider seriously who YOU would think the Lord Jehovah God would have you to vote/elect for, to run our Country.

"Choose this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord." Joshua 24:15 <><

May God Bless America!
Blessings, Abishag <><

While there may be some basic parallels between the foundation of the U.S. government and biblical law (you know, be nice to people, don't kill, don't steal -- standard moral values found in most religions) this country was most demonstrably not founded on biblical law.

The First Amendmant reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Moreover, in a treaty with Tripoli drafted under George Washington, ratified by the Senate under Adams in 1797, our first president wrote:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

This is America's foundation. It is separation of Chuch and State, the very thing those who had fled England were trying to escape. To insist that the U.S. is somehow (or for that matter ever was) a Christian nation is historically false. Indeed, this is so far removed from the truth as to be the polar opposite of what America stood for in its dawning days - and still stands for in the current era we now live in.

Even though Latin Amercia and the US considers itself
mostly Christian....

I feel this way..

Then he said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's..

I don't think politics will save us anyway..
From whats to come...
But anyone has the right to vote anyway they want to..
Or express what they believe to be best..
So far...
It's a free country right???
And the world lusts after the beast...
Can it get any worse...
It might..
Depends on what worst means..

Lynn

" The Christian Heritage of America~

Re: The Constitution~

" This country was founded by Christian men, on Christian principles. It has been the greatest country in the history of the world, until its people moved away from the foundation it was built on.
History shows, that men learn nothing from History.

Many non-Christians feel that the founding fathers were atheists, probably since they also think they made a law forbidding the mixing of Church and State.

You'll find that they (our founding fathers) were very Christian, and based their principles and morals on the Bible.

It seems that they feared a government with leaders who were NOT Christian. Read some Quotes from our founding Fathers and judge for yourself.
~~~~~~~~~
President George Washington:
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."

"...The Smiles of Heaven can never be expected On a Nation that disregards the eternal rules of Order and Right, which Heaven Itself Ordained."

"Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair; the rest is in the hands of God."
~~~~~~~~~~
Benjamin Franklin:
"I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--God Governs in the Affairs of Men, And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, Is it possible that an empire can rise without His aid?"

"Except the Lord build the house, They labor in vain who build it." "I firmly believe this."
~~~~~~~~~~
John Adams:
"If we make religion our business, God will make it our blessedness."
~~~~~~~~~~~
President James Madison:
"We've staked the whole future of American civilzation not on the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us....to Govern ourselves according to the commandments of God.
The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded. "

May God bless America!
An ambassador for Christ,
Abishag <><

Regardless of what the founding fathers have been quoted with saying, the tangible fact remains that the U.S. was not founded on biblical law, as evidenced in the First Amendment, which reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

John Adams, et al, can have said whatever they liked. The fact remains that on paper and according to the Constitution, the U.S. is not now nor ever has been founded on biblical law. For that matter George Bush Jr. has made similar remarks about his god. That doesn't change matters.

Now, if you wished to put forth the proposition that the U.S. should be based on biblical law that's one thing. But to say that it once was and no longer is is historically false. No quote from the mouths of our forefathers can override the law that is written on paper, set in stone.

Maybe Bibical principles not Bibical law as only God's
Kingdom come Thy will be done can truely enforce that..
But it wouldn't have to be enforced at that time..
It will be embraced..

No Sickness, No Suffering, No Pain, No Death..
No Violence, No Crimes, No Theft or Robbery..
No pollution, No Toxic Waste, No Imperfect Justice,
No Mistakes or Greed Involved..
Because a person would have everything they need anyway..
No need for any of that..
The perfect pollitician right???

On this imperfect planet the way it is now..

Separation from state enforced religion is a protection for
Christians as well..
We live under the grace of free will now..

You can't force anyone to love or believe in God..
What kind of love is that..
And God doesn't want that kind of love anyway..
God wants us to come to Him based on a persons free will to
do so... Thats from the heart..
But a Government can enforce laws of behavior..
Or laws based on the Bibical princibles...
Bibical laws..
Or whatever the people who vote decide that to be..
The world is what you make it and people only have so much control over it anyway..
Most people in the US consider themselves Christian and they
can vote however they like..
Some Christians vote some Christians don't..
Based on a persons vote thats what the world will be..
As long as your vote counts..
And a country is truely free....
It will be decided by the people..
It can be based on anything the voters want..
That the courts don't strike down..
That is...

I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG
OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS
ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE
WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.

IN GOD WE TRUST !
Blessings, Abishag

I don't even know if all schools still do this regularly but ours do and even when no one else says it aloud in class I always do....

satan didn't want any of us to have choice.... No one can grow that way. You have to make your own mistakes. Some mistakes may be avoided when counsel is heeded, but just the same, its our decision!

Hi, Abishag!

Unfortunately the Pledge of Allegiance is an anthem-like set of verses used to inspire national fervor. It was written long after the United States of America had become a country and thus does not serve as an indicator that America was based on biblical law. How could it? It was written after the U.S. government formed.

Moreover, a song children sing in school about their country does not take precedence over the U.S Constitution, nor the First Amendmant which reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Additionally, the use of the word 'God' with capitalization could very well refer to a deist's god. It in no way signifies either the Christian god nor does it corrolate with the bible. You could also point out that it reads (or once read) "In God We Trust" on money but that also does not stand as evidence for a biblically founded U.S.

If you wish to promote the current U.S government be founded on the holy bible, by all means give it a shot. But the U.S. was not founded on biblical law - quite the opposite. The proof, I'm afraid, is in the pudding.

You're welcome to provide other souces which you feel indicate the U.S. was founded on biblical law, but bear it mind it has to be something which supercedes the Constitution and the First Amendment (songs and quotes do not outrank the Constitution - and remember, the U.S. was founded on the Constitution (not the holy bible)).

For me....

Thats true...
There are many gods..
And Satan is called a god too...
Of this system and because of the commandment..
Thy shall have/put no other gods before me..
To say the word god is so generic to me I like to identify
which god I'm praying too or talking about..
And that God gave us a name for a reason I believe..
Otherwise God would have never given it too us..
If we were not suppose to know it..
Or use it..
Who that God is in identification..
Yes.. The pledge of Allegiance is pretty generic..
It's assumed I guess but not stated..
But yes.. Generic..
I guess it's internally stated???

Lynn

Now..
It could be said that the word 'God' with capitalization..
Represents the God of the Bible..
As it does say in the Bible..
In Exodus chapter 20:1..
And God spoke all theses words, saying:
I am Jehovah your God, who has brought you out of the land of Egypt.
You shall not have any other gods beside Me..
Big G little g...
As according to the Bible...
No "other gods;" they are called such not because they are so, either by nature or by office (Ps. 82:6),
but because they corrupt hearts of men make and esteem them such—as in "whose god is their belly" (Phil. 3:19).
"Before Me" or "My face," the force of which is best ascertained by His word to Abraham,
"Walk before Me and be thou perfect" or "upright" (Gen. 17:1)

So.. If the Pledge of Allegiance...
Said one nation under Jehovah God or money said in Jehovah God we trust.
Instead of in God we trust or one nation under God..
Some definition of a name of which God do we trust in....
But that is not defined on a dollar bill or in the pledge of alligence..

So I guess it would be more assumed that thats what the
word God meant..
But yes.. They did not include any specfic name of a God..
Just the title of one instead...
Yet with a big G...

Hello Pwcca ~
It matters NOT what the Constitution says....you brought that up, if you recall.

I know for a certainty that the Bible is the inerrant/infallible Word of God and it tells (believers) in Daniel 4:17 KJV (Regarding Daniel's interpretation of King Nebuchadnezzar's dream)...."This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones; to the intent that the living may know that the MOST HIGH GOD ruleth in the kingdom of men, and GIVETH IT TO WHOMSOEVER HE WILL...."

In Daniel Chapter 5 King Belshazzar saw a vision of handwriting on the wall. For your information, you can read Daniel's interpretation for yourself Chapter 5 beginning in verses 16, +22-30.

Referring King Belshazzar to the outcome of his father's dream (King Nebuchadnezzar) , Daniel told him when his heart became arrogant and hardened with pride, he was deposed from his royal throne and stripped of his glory. He was driven away from people and given the mind of an animal; he lived with the wild donkeys and ate grass like cattle;, etc, "....until he acknowledged that: THE MOST HIGH GOD IS SOVEREIGN OVER THE KINGDOMS OF MEN AND, [HE] SETS OVER THEM ANYONE HE WISHES."

Back to King Belshazzar's dream of the Writing on the wall.....because Belshazzar did not honor the God who holds in his hand his life and all his ways,....that very night King Belshazzar of the Babylonians was slain.

Pwcca, if you are not a Christian, as were many of our founding fathers, you will not believe nor understand this.

I refuse to debate this matter with you any further.

God appoints all Rulers! "Does not the God of all the earth do right."

Thank you, Lynn, for your Biblical insight. Blessings,
Abishag <><

Call me an idealist, but I still believe in America. People are trying to denigrate what she stands for...but America is a special place. We do stand for freedom of religion so Pwcca is correct technically. I have a picture of George Washington praying by his horse, though. I believe as imperfect as they may have been that all our founding fathers were led by God in founding this great country which my fathers died for. My ancestors all go back to the revolutionary war (other than the Indians I'm related to). I have even served in the military and was proud to do it. There is corruption in high places, but there are many heroes, still....

HEBREWS 13:8
"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever."

2CHRONICLES 7:14
"If my people, which are called by my name shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

This is what our Country needs to realize, desperately, before we can expect the Lord to bless the United States of America.

IN GOD WE TRUST !
Blessings, Abishag <><

I brought up the fact that you brought up the assertation that the U.S. is founded on biblical law. I'm simply pointing out that this is not true.

Obviously you feel that the U.S. should be founded on biblical law and that's fair enough. I don't agree with you but you're certainly most welcome to your beliefs, as we all are. My only interest in this thread is pointing out the falsehood that the U.S. was founded on biblical law. It was not founded on religion at all. That is all I'm saying here - nothing more, nothing less.



That's all well and good, but it has nothing to do with saying the U.S. was founded on biblical law. I recognize your desire to have the existing government backed by biblical scripture. I am not contesting against that desire. I am only pointing out the fact that the U.S. government was expressly not founded on the holy bible.



I'm not certain I follow. What won't I understand exactly?



No need to call it a debate. I'm just pointing out the fact that the U.S., according to the First Amendment, was not founded on religion or the holy bible.

The founding fathers could have been ministers and priests, that still does not indicate that the government itself was founded on the holy bible. Moreover, many of the country's founding fathers were deists and as such had no connection to the holy bible.

There really is no way to argue around the fact that the First Amendment very clearly indicates a non-religious (non-Christian, non-biblical) framework. It doesn't matter if every political member of the U.S. government from George Washington onwards was a devout Christian, the government itself and its foundation give no precedence to one religion over the other any more than it gives precedence to the holy bible over the koran.

I'm not debating what you said Pwcca. Reread it...

What exactly is a diest? I'm curious, too, what you guys worship or believe.

Hello Jeanie,

I am going over to the Bible thread and post an article by Pastor Charles Stanley, "Is Our Country On Thin Ice?"

You may be enightened with it's contents. No need to carry on this endless discussion any further.
Blessings , Abishag <><

Yeah, sorry I didn't mean to word it as though you were arguing on that side of the fence per se. I just wanted to say that even if the founding fathers were all inspired by their gods that wouldn't make the country founded on the bible specifically - and that was just in case someone intended to use your statement as ammunition.

You can get a pretty accurate definition of what a deist is on Wikipedia. I don't consider myself one because I'm a polytheist, so it was just an example.

Cute picture by the way. Of course I look cuter because I have leathern wings and antlers, but, you know...

Thanks... : ) It's little Jeanie : ) I'm gonna go look up polytheism...

Hmmm... Hmmm..... : ) My personal opinion is that mythology actually began from original sources. We actually believe we have a "Heavenly Mother." Of course I'm opening a can of worms in saying that....

Oh my goodness.... No wonder some of the folks on here call us (Mormons) heretics.... I just read where those who are tritheists (which we are) and believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are 3 separate Gods are heretics! I guess I'm a heretic! And proud of it!!! I knew that didn't go along with standard Christian doctrines, but didn't realize it was thought of that way. So Jesus threw His voice when He introduced Himself as His Beloved Son after baptized then?? And prayed to himself on the cross... etc. etc. Well, I guess Pwcca, we have more in common than I thought!

Thank you, Lynn, for straightening me out. Yes, the Holy Ghost is without a body. He is part of the Godhead, though. (How we see it). Thanks for helping me be more clear. : )

I'm sorry, Abishag, if any of this seems disrespectful. I'm not meaning to be. I am very patriotic and appreciate others who are. It seems to be dwindling in this country...among children, too, and that is sad to me.

Monotheism supremists have had a way of pointing the finger at themselves and calling one another a heretic. Divisions of beliefs within a specific religion tend to view one another as heretics for not believing exactly as them.

I see a lot of it as quibbling over minutiae of trivia. Pettiness. Personally, I don't think it matters if the father, son and holy ghost are three gods or three powers. Funnily enough, those who see you as heretical for believing they are 3 separate gods probably believe the same as you, they just use different words. They still believe in the father, son and holy ghost. They believe they are 3 separate powers. Call it a god, an entity, an incarnation. The differences are trivial, in my view. The same goes with the reverence of icons (saints), the act of which some Christian denominations view as heretical as well.

Pwcca: Funnily enough, those who see you as heretical for believing they are 3 separate gods probably believe the same as you, they just use different words.

Jeanie: I agree with that! The essence I guess you could say, at least, is the same on a lot of things. I've always thought that... Different sects or groups (Baptist, Methodist, etc.) believe in the same basic points as in the atonement and Jesus Christ, but vary on small differences. Of course those things do matter as far as whatever is factual! But I suppose I'd rather focus on the commonalities rather than the differences....if you are going to agree to disagree at least.

Hi Jeanie, ((( Smiles )))

I read what you wrote above and..
Probably you too as..
When I think of the Holy Spirit..
In description..
From the Old Testament to the New Testament as it all flows together..
It's a gift from God..
Something that flows, that's poured out, being filled with..

It's a force as in Genesis Chapter 1: and the Spirit of God moveing gently on the face of the waters..
Something powerfull, something moveing, some force..

It's anointing too and has power...

as when Jesus as you mentioned above in
Matthew 3:16..
and haveing been baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water and behold!
The heavens where opened up to Him, and He
saw the Spirit of God, comeing down as a dove, comeing upon Him.
And behold! A voice out of heaven, saying this is My Son, the
Beloved, in whom I have been delighted..
{Ps,2:7: Isa 42:1 }

And as in Acts 10:44:
The Holy Spirit fell on all thoses hearing the word..
Plus it said the Holy Spirit was poured out on the nations,
and it also mentions it's something to be recieved..

And Acts 10:38: Jesus the ( One ) from Nazareth , how
God annointed Him with ( the ) Holy Spirit and with power.

And I think of Psalm 139..
A Psalm of David when he said O, Jehovah You have searched me and known me..
verse 7: Where shall I go from Your Spirit ?

I love thoses verses Psalms is my favorite..
It's all encompassing..
And thats it..
Thats how I see it..
I like to put all the verses on that subject
together because..

As you know..
The Bible was originally written in ancient Hebrew, Aramaic,
and Greek so most people who desire to read it must rely on a translation..
And no two languages are exactly alike in grammer, and vocabulary and sentence structure..

Sometimes the best way to catch the meaning of a subject
is to cross reference it with other verses in scripture..
Or it could get confusing... In the total meaning of..
Or the use of an expression...

Isn't it beautifull though...
And I think of what David sang in praise..
Psalm 138:
I will Thank You with my whole heart.
I will sing praise to You before the gods,
I will worship toward Your holy temple and give thanks to Your name for Your mercy, and for Your truth;
for You have magnified Your word above all Your name..
You answered me in the day that I cried..

Holy by Thy name..
I just love Psalms I could go on forever...
Makes me want to cry too...

Take Care
Lynn

The trinity is a mystery, not fully understood by man and never will be (unless/until fully revealed to us in Heaven).

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all three persons within one Godhead. Very difficult for us humans to understand this. They are ONE God. They make up ONE God. I try and see it like cutting up an apple into three. Three parts of the same apple.

Even Jesus stated that he who sees Him, sees the Father. He stated also that the Father and Himself were one and the same!

Again, one could argue over this time and time again because not all things are understood by man and this is one of those cases in the bible where it most definitely is a mystery. We find it hard sometimes to believe/accept. God may not intend for us to fully understand as yet, or perhaps that comes with holiness and clarity of the holy spirit....I am unsure. Either way oneday all things will be fully revealed.

However, the parts of the bible that are understood are exactly what is necessary for me (and others) to grow spiritually and get into Heaven.

Jeanie is that a picture of you? You look like butter wouldn't melt. Quite angelic (choir girl), very cute

Its really not that complicated.

The Father is the aspect of god that is beyond all creation and not part of creation in any way...the true source of everything.

The Holy Ghost is the invisible part of god that is active in creation and affects our lives and the world.

The Son is anybody, such as Jesus, who has fully and truly realized his oneness with the supreme father.

Unless someone can confidentaly claim they have total understanding of the unlimited God Himself and His nature, then perhaps we'd have to proclaim we are unlimited also. Certainly there is much mystery and I do not believe God is (or could be) completely understood by limited and sinful mankind (until wall things are revealed to us in Heaven).

God the Father - Creator. God the Son - Redeemer/reconciler between man and God. God the holy spirit - inspirer/baptiser (etc, one could go on with each far more than this). Yet each of them make ONE God. He is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords and every tongue shall confess and every knee shall bow.

Jesus is not "anybody", Jesus is the Son of the almighty God. Begotten by the Father, conceived by the Holy Spirit. Part of the reason for His crucifixion was His statement of indentifying Himself not just as the Messiah, but that The Father and Himself are one in the same. This sealed his fate.

None of us could claim such a thing, since we are not divine, we are not God. Only Christ could claim such a thing. We are all sons/daughters of God in the sense that He created mankind. But we were estranged from Him by original sin, which Christ has reconciled/bridged by His redemption (if we accept that offer). However, this is not the same as the Son Himself, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit Himself and as Himself, does not require redemption.

My feeble explanations, which will be flawed cannot possibly come close to what the bible tells us, so I think it's better to use quote and verse, which shouldn't leave much room for doubt. Unless a person skips over them or selectively reads.





















































Jesus is both the creator and descendant of David.

Bex, yes its me as a little girl. Thank you! : )

Wow, you put a lot of effort into that! I'm don't think Gary meant to lessen Christ in saying what he did...perhaps he (you, Gary) meant in the way that we can become son's too?

There are seemingly contradictory references where Jesus refers to himself as the Father. Just read a talk on it. Always has confused me. But we see them as one in purpose...but still separate. And of course by virtue of Jesus being the Christ he is now the Father in the sense of us receiving His gospel. He is the Christ and Savior of the world. We just believe that we do have a literal father of our spirits, God, (Elohim) and that Jesus (Jehovah) and He are two beings...and of course the holy ghost is without body so he can be more present in spirit here to help us.

From the way I understand it, anyone who has overcome is a son of god, because they realized oneness with the supreme.

I understand it the way Christ and His witnesses pointed it out to me, the biblical interpretation which couldn't be more clearer as to who Christ was and why He is Lord of Lords.

This is why we are baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and why when Christ ascended into Heaven, in His name these miracles would still occur and so they have done so. Just as He said He would.

HIs miracles and the witnesses are a testament to His divinity and power over the elements, as well as power over life/death/sickness and even the demons. And with faith, in His name, to this day there are the continuing miracles that often defy scientific/medical explanations.

We cannot perform such things in and of ourselves, but in His name, the impossible can become possible.

Just wanted to add, what Jesus did is the highest accomplishment that anyone on this earth could do...but it does not mean that I think he was the only one who did this. Many religions have there stories about holy men performing miracles and being one with the supreme...including stories of resurrection.

Here is an example of a great yogi from India who just passed in 1881. Many men have come and gone who have overcome and lived lives full of great miracles, though each one is different I believe they all attained oneness with the supreme and just expressed it in slightly different ways.

Interesting read, gdawson6!

Have you heard of the "Buddha Boy", Palden Dorje?

Ya I have heard of the buddha boy, yet for some reason when I looked at the information it failed to catch my attention, for whatever reason.

That quote in my previous post is from the book Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda which is the hands down the clearest and best book I have ever read on spirituality. I copied the quote from a website then later realized that everything was just taken out of the book, and I don't even think the website mentioned it at all.

Gary, with all due respect knowing you have had a near death experience and all that...you can't compare others with Jesus Christ. There is no one else who has lived who was or will be his equal.

If Jesus offered anyone who has overcame to sit on the throne with his father just as he had done, would that not make them his equal?

If you believe Jesus was the only holy man who has come that is capable of helping man find salvation you are mistaken.

The Bible is a bigger book.. ((( Smiles )))

To each their own...
And I know I'll probably get in trouble for this..
But this is how some people really feel...
I didn't write this I received this..
Oh what the heck I allways get in trouble anyway..
And I don't want to live under Sharia law either...
Lots of people don't..
And the sentence that stands out for me...
Which I expressed what that means in concept for me..
Facts Intelligence Gathering thread..
In the peacefull liveing part..
But there are people who do feel strongly about this..
Weither you consider it right or wrong or fact..
People have the right to vote however they choose to..
Even based on their beliefs..
No matter where they may live...
Thats there right....

Well..
Here it goes....

A Leader Like This!
>
> Prime Minister John Howard - Australia
>
> Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia ,
as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
>
> Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.
>
> Quote: 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT.
Take It Or Leave It.
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture.
Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.'
>
> 'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.'
>
> 'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language.
Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the language!'
>
> 'Most Australians believe in God.
This is not some Christian, right wing, political push,
but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented.

It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools.
If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.''
>
> 'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'
>
> 'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this.
But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life,

I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'
>
> ''If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'
>
> Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, American citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing the same truths.

GDawson:

If Jesus offered anyone who has overcame to sit on the throne with his father just as he had done, would that not make them his equal?

If you believe Jesus was the only holy man who has come that is capable of helping man find salvation you are mistaken.

Jeanie: Well, yah, in those terms.

But salvation only comes through Christ. Sure others have pointed the way to holiness, but He is the door.... I'm sure this is a difference in wording here to a point. But this is clear cut.

I got that email Lynn and I totally agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (The one you copied about the leader of Australia)

Plus.. ((( Smiles )))

If women didn't have the right to vote..
We would all most likely be liveing under Sharia law today..
Of course alot of men wouldn't like liveing under that kind
of system as well..
But....
Women loved Jesus...
Spiritual ....
He treated them like humans with dignity..
And honor and brought them back into the fold..
Though they were allways there but in being more inclusive..
It's great being a Christian women and someday I'll write/post
about why that is too...
I can think for myself..
And it's really hard when one posts Scriptures in sound bites..
REV 3:21..
In that type of context..
And wants a debriefing on it pronto..
Not that I can't answer it but..
As it does not convey the whole meaning like and as the Old Testament and New Testament flows together...
to help one understand the meaning of scriptures much better..

For those that do study up with it..
Or reading other scriptures that convey and compare the total message and yes He will dine with us...
and will be with us in symbolic language and also in truth..
Forever shareing and careing...
Not to be replaced...
But to be embraced..

It's about overcomeing and about love...
Someday I'll touch on all that but your either interested
or your not..

Got lots to share....
Overtime..
And plus.. I'm not sure yet about how the names in reply in
blue get there.. As I didn't put them up there but they appear no matter who I'm replying too...

Does it make a difference on reply .. Quick reply.. Quote..
Different subject as I probably need to read up on the instructions of posting on this board better anyway..

Lynn

Sorry Jeanie but I believe salvation comes from god himself. Jesus just pointed the way and let the father work through him, and he did it so clearly which is what made him so special. He has awakened so many to a more spiritual life and his teachings survive to this day and are very easy to understand for many.

It doesn't make much sense to argue this point though as when someone reaches such a supreme oneness with god they associate more with god than with their own flesh, because they know that their body will not last much longer but that god is eternal, so when they speak they speak from god and it can be confusing because who can say if Jesus was saying he was the way or the supreme god is the only way to salvation?

Hi All !
Isn't it strange how the 'enemy of our souls' can take one subject, "2008 Presidential Elect..." and totally confuse people away from that subject onto yet another?

I am replying to gdawson6. Your post really sounds like double-talk:
"Jesus pointed the way to the Father,...(next paragraph).."....who can say if Jesus was saying he was the way or the supreme god is the only way to salvation?"

Well, Jesus Himself said in John Chapter 14 verse 6, "I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH,and THE LIFE; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Jesus also said, "I and the Father are One." (John 10:30)

The book of John is filled with the attributes of our Sovereign Lord Jesus. Jesus repeatedly said, "I Am....".

Isn't that what the Lord Jehovah said to Moses in Exodus Chapter 3 verses 13-14 When Moses asked God, ".....The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; (Israelites) and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?"

"And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

Jesus is God! He always has been and always will be. No one will ever attain to His supreme Oneness. To sit next to him in His kingdom, does NOT make the Twelve Tribes of Israel, nor the twelve Apostles his equal.

I think we should start a new Topic regarding the upcoming election. Also, it seems all of the wonderful insight into Scripture should be over in the "Bible" section???

"Without faith it is impossible to please God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." FAITH is the KEY that unlocks the door to His mysteries.

ONLY BELIEVE !

JESUS IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND FOREVER. (Hebrews 13:8)

1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." WOW!!!

IMPORTANT VERSE: Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Sounds pretty clear that salvation only comes through and by the Lord Jesus Christ. AMEN!

Blessings, Abishag <><

GDawson,

Apparently you and I agree that Jesus Christ and our Father in Heaven are 2 distinct beings. But, still, Jesus is the God of our earth as our Savior. He is our examplar...the One who paid for our sins through the atonement. Eternal life in eternity is life in the presence of God and our Savior...but sins can only be forgiven and overcome through Christ....

The following is long but informative:

The term “Father” as applied to Deity occurs in sacred writ with plainly different meanings. Each of the four significations specified in the following treatment should be carefully segregated.

1. “Father” as Literal Parent
Scriptures embodying the ordinary signification—literally that of Parent—are too numerous and specific to require citation. The purport of these scriptures is to the effect that God the Eternal Father, whom we designate by the exalted name-title “Elohim,” is the literal Parent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and of the spirits of the human race. Elohim is the Father in every sense in which Jesus Christ is so designated, and distinctively He is the Father of spirits. Thus we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews: “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?” (Heb. 12:9). In view of this fact we are taught by Jesus Christ to pray: “Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name” (Matt. 6:9).

Jesus Christ applies to Himself both titles, “Son” and “Father.” Indeed, He specifically said to the brother of Jared: “Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son” (Ether 3:14). Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh, and which body died on the cross and was afterward taken up by the process of resurrection, and is now the immortalized tabernacle of the eternal spirit of our Lord and Savior. No extended explanation of the title “Son of God” as applied to Jesus Christ appears necessary.

2. “Father” as Creator
A second scriptural meaning of “Father” is that of Creator; e.g., in passages referring to any one of the Godhead as “the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are” (Ether 4:7; see also Alma 11:38–39; Mosiah 15:4).

God is not the Father of the earth as one of the worlds in space, nor of the heavenly bodies in whole or in part, not of the inanimate objects and the plants and the animals upon the earth, in the literal sense in which He is the Father of the spirits of mankind. Therefore, scriptures that refer to God in any way as the Father of the heavens and the earth are to be understood as signifying that God is the Maker, the Organizer, the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

With this meaning, as the context shows in every case, Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ the Son of Elohim, is called “the Father,” and even “the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth” (see passages before cited and also Mosiah 16:15). With analogous meaning Jesus Christ is called “The Everlasting Father” (Isa. 9:6; compare 2 Ne. 19:6). The descriptive titles “Everlasting” and “Eternal” in the foregoing texts are synonymous.

That Jesus Christ, whom we also know as Jehovah, was the executive of the Father, Elohim, in the work of creation is set forth in the book Jesus the Christ, chapter 4 [by James E. Talmage]. Jesus Christ, being the Creator, is consistently called the Father of heaven and earth in the sense explained above; and since His creations are of eternal quality He is very properly called the Eternal Father of heaven and earth.

3. Jesus Christ the “Father” of Those Who Abide in His Gospel
A third sense in which Jesus Christ is regarded as the “Father” has reference to the relationship between Him and those who accept His gospel and thereby become heirs of eternal life. Following are a few of the scriptures illustrating this meaning.

In fervent prayer offered just prior to His entrance into Gethsemane, Jesus Christ supplicated His Father in behalf of those whom the Father had given unto Him, specifically the Apostles, and, more generally, all who would accept and abide in the gospel through the ministry of the Apostles. Read in our Lord’s own words the solemn affirmation that those for whom He particularly prayed were His own, and that His Father had given them unto Him:

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

“Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

“For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

“And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

“And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:6–12).

And further:

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

“That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

“And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

“Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:20–24).

To His faithful servants in the present dispensation the Lord has said, “Fear not, little children, for you are mine, and I have overcome the world, and you are of them that my Father hath given me” (D&C 50:41).

Salvation is attainable only through compliance with the laws and ordinances of the gospel; and all who are thus saved become sons and daughters unto God in a distinctive sense. In a revelation given through Joseph the Prophet to Emma Smith, the Lord Jesus addressed the woman as “my daughter” and said, “For verily I say unto you, all those who receive my gospel are sons and daughters in my kingdom” (D&C 25:1). In many instances the Lord had addressed men as His sons (e.g., D&C 9:1; D&C 34:3; D&C 121:7).

That by obedience to the gospel men may become sons of God, both as sons of Jesus Christ, and, through Him, as sons of His Father, is set forth in many revelations given in the current dispensation. Thus we read in an utterance of the Lord Jesus Christ to Hyrum Smith in 1829:

“Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I am the life and the light of the world.

“I am the same who came unto mine own and mine own received me not;

“But verily, verily, I say unto you, that as many as receive me, to them will I give power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on my name. Amen” (D&C 11:28–30).

To Orson Pratt the Lord spoke through Joseph the seer, in 1830:

“My son Orson, hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer;

“The light and the life of the world, a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

“Who so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might become the sons of God. Wherefore you are my son” (D&C 34:1–3).

In 1830 the Lord thus addressed Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon:

“Listen to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and forever.

“I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one” (D&C 35:1–2).

Consider also the following given in 1831:

“Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ—

“The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

“The same which came in the meridian of time unto mine own, and mine own received me not;

“But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons” (D&C 39:1–4).

In a revelation given through Joseph Smith in March 1831 we read:

“For verily I say unto you that I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the light and the life of the world—a light that shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

“I came unto mine own, and mine own received me not; but unto as many as received me gave I power to do many miracles, and to become the sons of God; and even unto them that believed on my name gave I power to obtain eternal life” (D&C 45:7–8).

A forceful exposition of this relationship between Jesus Christ as the Father and those who comply with the requirements of the gospel as His children was given by Abinadi, centuries before our Lord’s birth in the flesh:

“And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?

“Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God.

“For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?

“Yea, and are not the prophets, every one that has opened his mouth to prophesy, that has not fallen into transgression, I mean all the holy prophets ever since the world began? I say unto you that they are his seed” (Mosiah 15:10–13).

In tragic contrast with the blessed state of those who become children of God through obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ is that of the unregenerate, who are specifically called the children of the devil. Note the words of Christ, while in the flesh, to certain wicked Jews who boasted of their Abrahamic lineage: “If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. … Ye do the deeds of your father. … If God were your Father, ye would love me. … Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do” (John 8:39, 41–42, 44). Thus Satan is designated as the father of the wicked, though we cannot assume any personal relationship of parent and children as existing between him and them. A combined illustration showing that the righteous are the children of God and the wicked the children of the devil appears in the parable of the tares: “The good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one” (Matt. 13:38).

Men may become children of Jesus Christ by being born anew—born of God, as the inspired word states:

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother” (1 Jn. 3:8–10).

Those who have been born unto God through obedience to the gospel may by valiant devotion to righteousness obtain exaltation and even reach the status of godhood. Of such we read: “Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God” (D&C 76:58; compare D&C 132:20, and contrast D&C 132:17 in same section; see also D&C 132:37). Yet though they be gods, they are still subject to Jesus Christ as their Father in this exalted relationship; and so we read in the paragraph following the above quotation: “And they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s” (D&C 76:59).

By the new birth—that of water and the Spirit—mankind may become children of Jesus Christ, being through the means by Him provided “begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:24). This solemn truth is further emphasized in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ given through Joseph Smith in 1833:

“And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

“And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn” (D&C 93:21–22).

For such figurative use of the term “begotten” in application to those who are born unto God, see Paul’s explanation: “For in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel” (1 Cor. 4:15). An analogous instance of sonship attained by righteous service is found in the revelation relating to the order and functions of priesthood, given in 1832:

“For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies:

“They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God” (D&C 84:33–34).

If it be proper to speak of those who accept and abide in the gospel as Christ’s sons and daughters—and upon this matter the scriptures are explicit and cannot be gainsaid nor denied—it is consistently proper to speak of Jesus Christ as the Father of the righteous, they having become His children and He having been made their Father through the second birth—the baptismal regeneration.

4. Jesus Christ the “Father” by Divine Investiture of Authority
A fourth reason for applying the title “Father” to Jesus Christ is found in the fact that in all His dealings with the human family Jesus the Son has represented and yet represents Elohim His Father in power and authority. This is true of Christ in His preexistent, antemortal, or unembodied state, in the which He was known as Jehovah; also during His embodiment in the flesh; and during His labors as a disembodied spirit in the realm of the dead; and since that period in His resurrected state. To the Jews He said, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30; see also John 17:11, 22); yet He declared, “My Father is greater than I” (John 14:28), and further, “I am come in my Father’s name” (John 5:43; see also John 10:25). The same truth was declared by Christ Himself to the Nephites (see 3 Ne. 20:35; 3 Ne. 28:10), and has been reaffirmed by revelation in the present dispensation (D&C 50:43). Thus the Father placed His name upon the Son; and Jesus Christ spoke and ministered in and through the Father’s name; and so far as power, authority, and godship are concerned His words and acts were and are those of the Father.

We read, by way of analogy, that God placed His name upon or in the angel who was assigned to special ministry unto the people of Israel during the exodus. Of that angel the Lord said, “Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him” (Ex. 23:21).

The ancient Apostle John was visited by an angel who ministered and spoke in the name of Jesus Christ. As we read, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John” (Rev. 1:1). John was about to worship the angelic being who spoke in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, but was forbidden:

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

“Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not; for I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God” (Rev. 22:8–9).

And then the angel continued to speak as though he were the Lord Himself:

“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last” (Rev. 22:12–13).

The resurrected Lord, Jesus Christ, who had been exalted to the right hand of God His Father, had placed His name upon the angel sent to John, and the angel spoke in the first person, saying, “I come quickly,” “I am Alpha and Omega,” though he meant that Jesus Christ would come and that Jesus Christ was Alpha and Omega.

None of these considerations, however, can change in the least degree the solemn fact of the literal relationship of Father and Son between Elohim and Jesus Christ. Among the spirit children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors. Following are affirmative scriptures bearing upon this great truth. Paul, writing to the Colossians, says of Jesus Christ:

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

“And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

“And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

“For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell” (Col. 1:15–19).

From this scripture we learn that Jesus Christ was “the firstborn of every creature,” and it is evident that the seniority here expressed must be with respect to antemortal existence, for Christ was not the senior of all mortals in the flesh. He is further designated as “the firstborn from the dead,” this having reference to Him as the first to be resurrected from the dead, or as elsewhere written “the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20; see also 1 Cor. 15:23); and “the first begotten of the dead” (Rev. 1:5; compare Acts 26:23). The writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews affirms the status of Jesus Christ as the firstborn of the spirit children of His Father and extols the preeminence of the Christ when tabernacled in flesh: “And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him” (Heb. 1:6; read the preceding verses). That the spirits who were juniors to Christ were predestined to be born in the image of their Elder Brother is thus attested by Paul:

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren” (Rom. 8:28–29).

John the Revelator was commanded to write to the head of the Laodicean church, as the words of the Lord Jesus Christ: “These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God” (Rev. 3:14). In the course of a revelation given through Joseph Smith in May 1833, the Lord Jesus Christ said, as before cited, “And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn” (D&C 93:21). A later verse makes plain the fact that human beings generally were similarly existent in spirit state prior to their embodiment in the flesh: “Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth” (D&C 93:23).

There is no impropriety, therefore, in speaking of Jesus Christ as the Elder Brother of the rest of humankind. That He is by spiritual birth Brother to the rest of us is indicated in Hebrews: “Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people” (Heb. 2:17). Let it not be forgotten, however, that He is essentially greater than any or all others, by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness.

Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for He is one of them. He is The Son, as they are sons or daughters of Elohim. So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation.

The First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Salt Lake City, Utah, 30 June 1916

[illustration] Far left: Detail from Christ and the Rich Young Ruler, by Heinrich Hofmann

[illustration] Left: Detail from First Vision, by Gary Kapp

[illustration] Christ and the Creation, by Robert Barrett

[photo] Photo by Michael Schoenfeld

[illustration] Detail from The Birth of Jesus, by Carl Heinrich Bloch, det Nationalhistoriske Museum på Frederiksborg, Hillerød

[illustration] Detail from The Premortal Christ, by Robert Barrett

[illustration] Detail from The Second Coming, by Harry Anderson

I understand that the bible says otherwise in certain parts...but this is coming from somebody who has seen death and has spent what seemed like an eternity without any identity of my own merged with the Divine Father. Such an experience cannot be mistaken for anything else, it was imbued with truth in a way that words cannot even describe. It is a memory of mine that time cannot change or fade.

Jesus was not there to my knowledge or not part of the process, unless he was just an invisible force assisting the process without attributes...in which case I would just call that force god anyway. For this reason I see Jesus as a real path to God, but not the only path.

So for these reasons, based on personal experience, you could quote all you want but its not going to change my mind.

Hi Jeanie,
Here we are.....'in different camps', again. Do you realize, dear friend, that the Mormon Bible is not the Bible read by all denominations or people? You have quoted so many things that simply are not scriptural to the Original Text, say, of the King James or the NASB.
Therefore, how can you possible expect others to KNOW what you are talking about? No offense, really.
PLUS, if I may add, to have such a lengthy unending post truly loses a person to the original thought. I hope you don't take offense in this. I am simply trying to be helpful to you when you try to 'minister' to others?
God is watching. Blessings, Abishag <><

Hi Abishag, thank you for your posts. There are so many quotes we've given straight from the word of God, that it's clear and undeniable. Christ as divine, Christ as the Messiah and the one true God, is absolute.

The quotes given here should be read properly and not skipped over because they say it all and should, in that case, put an end to arguments to the contrary. As no re-interpretations, removals, additions are necessary, unless God Himself orchestrates it. Nor would it be wise that a person do this. Should one be in danger of scandalising another with an edited, changed or watered down version. I would not like to answer to God. Christ has already revealed His divinity, His majesty and power over life and death (ressurrection), over the elements, walking on water, and over the demons. We can do nothing in and of ourselves in this respect, unless we do it in Hisholy name and with faith.

The miracles He has performed would not be contained within one book, but we can certainly get a good example of what He did and the power He had.

He did NOT have an earthly father biologically. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. God Himself! We are also told this from the biblical word. Again, that is clear cut.

What caused His crucifixion? Revealing Himself as God, rather than just a "prophet". To them, He was a blasphemer. They did not realise whom Christ really was. Though many did, they were afraid if they associated themselves with Him at that time, they too would be put to death. Only a few remained at the foot of His cross. The rest were in hiding.





These and much more in this link. I'd advise reading the quotes, so that I am not forced to continually repeat them:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Ch4.htm

So whatever anybody else says outside of the word in contradiction to it, or an attempt to play down or remove Christ's divinity, is to my mind, quite irrelevent. It simply doesn't wash when one looks at what the bible tells us time and time again. Christ has made it clear He is the way, the truth and the life as quoted on here. Those who think they can take Christ onboard at the sametime as "other ways" are fooling themselves. JESUS SAID "THOSE WHAT ARE NOT FOR ME ARE AGAINST ME" AND "THOSE THAT DO NOT GATHER, SCATTER." He has made this very clear that He is not simply another "option".

I'll trust God's holy word and His witnesses (the apostles). Both the old and new testaments have revealed Christ as not only the Son of the living God, but also God Himself. It is also evident in Christ's works and His authority over all things. By their fruits you shall know them! And Christ's fruits and His witnesses are His evidence, including what continues to occur to this day in His name!

Granted...I should have cut it down. But you are basically saying that anything I say based on anything LDS will not be accepted as truth no matter how much it agrees with what you say with regards to Biblical truths. So anything I say, pretty much, will be discredited. I'm watching it in action. What the heck is coming from "different camps" supposed to mean anyway?

I just deleted two posts I sent in. I'm not feeling good and not feeling like being nice in return to this constant opposition to anything I say WHETHER ITS CONSISTENT WITH BIBLICAL TRUTH OR NOT. So don't see the point in contributing. I'm sure that is the point of this opposition. But to be honest, I sent that to GDawson. I almost did it privately...in the future I will. You are right. I don't see the point of posting to a hostile audience. If I could go back and edit I would but can't since you've responded to it.

I will stick to health related issues at this point. Or just get off. I like some of the people on here, so will give it soem time, but really growing weary of being treated like this.

Jeanie,
Please forgive me for upsetting you. You are a very delightful person and our Lord loves you just as much as all other people.

I hope you get to feeling better real soon, Jeanie, Sincerely, I mean that.

Can you at least try to be open-minded to what others are trying to tell you in regards to LDS and their Doctrine. It's not me, Jeanie......it is proven facts that the Bible speaks for itself. (not through Joseph Smith nor the Pope). That is what I mean by 'coming from different camps'.

When and if you'd like I can post from the book "Twist or Truth?" from the ministry of Back to the Bible by Harold J. Berry. I do not receive personal/private emails, but if your mail does receive such, and you'd like, I can type this out and send it to you to pray over.

Jesus said , "No one comes to the Father but through me." Also, neither you nor I can convert anyone. That is the Holy Spirit's job. He alone (the 3rd person of the trinity) opens and reveals the Truth to individuals. Please take care and get well soon,
I care, Abishag <><

Abishag, I was just going to apologize to you, too. You have always been very sweet. In fact, I just found out you are a girl!! : ) Lynn is my little conscience/friend who helps me navigate this minefield sometimes, and told me.

I was only being supportive of what you said and stand for, though. I DO go by the Bible as far as it is interpreted correctly. We study it in SS along with all the other churches. I have read it, grew up on it, and cherish it as well. People have a misconception about us if they think otherwise. God has talked to other people along with those in the middle east, though.... He visited America before he ascended and established his church here at one time, too. (South America to be exact). Those peoples had a reign of peace where they lived the commandments for over 300 years! We only use the Book of Mormon as a companion to the Bible as a witness of Christ. Of course we believe in modern day revelation as well...because we believe the authority of the priesthood has, again, been restored with all its keys. And that the heavens are open again.... The Lord Jesus Christ is, again, directing His church. We have prophets guiding us through Him....who's church this is. It does not mean we believe those of you sticking only to the Bible

Ohhhh, (((( Smiles ))))

I like that...
That was so sweet..
Who sang that song...
Love is a battlefield but sometimes within the battlefields
we stop listening to each other and the reasons for...
And shut each other out..
Sometimes we find ourselves at that point in time..
Where we just need to agree to disagree based on where we disgree at..
Besides right or wrong when we hit that wall..
We plant a seed and then we watch it grow..
Sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't but we can still
love our neighbor and lend a helping hand..
And be around if ones help is ever needed again..
Life changes.. People change but God never does..
It's up to us.. To find that path..
Through Gods love for us..
I love what I read above..
That...
It's nothing personal but based on something else..
Apologise's are good..
When we can't get past that wall...
But still be friends...
And never let it get past that point...
Of no return..

Ohh I'm tired..
Schools is out the weekend is here and not a holiday for me..

You Take Care
Lynn

Something got cut off, here and I forgot exactly what it was, now. I did say, though, that I have grown to love the people on here...Russ, Abishag, Bex, (especially : ), even CTD and SoSick with our tiffs. (And Lynn...my dear honest friend : ) I see all of you as very good people... And Abishag, you are very very sweet and good. I like those who aren't exactly or strictly Christian, too of the evolutionists. But it did hurt to see Russ say I was from a "different camp." I have been writing in support of what Abishag and those I've responded to have said.... My belief in "polytheism" does not in any way detract from Jesus the Christ... If you knew my heart.... But He does.

Lynn.....I think you are talking about Pat Benatar???

Sorry Jeanie. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Really.

I only wanted to differentiate my opinion from yours because I didn't want to appear (to the one asking the question) to be dividing Christians in case your answer was different than mine.

I truly know enough about Mormonism to know that there are some very fundamental differences between my beliefs and Mormonism and that these differences can confuse those who don't know that you are Mormon.

I considered stating that you were Mormon in that post, but I thought it would be more considerate if I left that up to you and just put it a more gentle way... by simply saying that we are from different camps.

Certainly don't mean to offend you at all. I just want to be accurate and kind in these confusing days.

Thanks for your understanding!

Yes it's real late.. ((( Smiles )))

But I had to check the board before I go to sleep..
I think alot of nice things were written above..
Really nice..
From Abishag From Jeanie From Russ...
And as Jeanie wrote I've grown to love the people on here ...
Ya.. So have I it's a really neat bunch..
And I have people I like too neighbors, family, friends that
may not be Christian but that doesn't stop me from likeing people..

But all that comes to my mind right now is Galatians 5:22,23..
And I see alot of that above...
But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness,temperance,against such
there is no law..

And I don't think it's personal..
Any disagreement and I think that was stated well above..
And love is a battlefield at times when it comes to the care
and concern over ones welfare..
Though it may not feel or have come off that way to you..
And..
I really don't know much if anything about mormonism..
I don't know anybody personally that is though there was
a program on TV that showed a mormom family praying a prayer..

Dear Father in Jesus's name.. They looked sincere and all...
They probably were it's just for me..
The only ancient manuscripts I go by or Bible I go by is
the Bible we allready have..
And any ancient fragments from that text is what I go by
as well..
Thats where I take my reference from..
And I'm not sure what is commentary as all churchs do that but usually it's based on the Bible....
I think the difference's here has to do with any extra prophecies???
Or extra book???
I think it's like that...
Thats what it sounds like..
But I do believe in God..
And I do believe in the Bible...
And I do believe in love though one can't touch it or see it..
And I see alot of that here....
And thats nice...
But....
Off to bed I go my eyes are starting to blur..
I'm real tired schools out ...

Take Care
Lynn ((( Smiles )))

Oh plus,, ((( Smiles )))

And Yes...

Lynn.....I think you are talking about Pat Benatar???

That song came into my mind..
Better get off before I fall asleep on my laptop..

Night Night Everybody
Lynn

Oh plus.. I just wanted to say real fast..
We detoured your thread again Abishag..
Sorry, and onto the presidental race...
Maybe we can put all this extra stuff in a new thread??

Good night everybody
Lynn

Abishag, I just reread this. I would be happy to read your views if you want to type them out. (The paper). (Can you just cut and paste? Sounds like a lot of work). I like to understand how people see things. Its up to you. My email is on the user list. I'm glad you sent an honest response. I would rather have that than just be blown off or accused of heresy or whatever. You have always been kind.... If nothing else, I would prefer to agree to disagree such as Lynn and Russ and I have agreed to do, but still keep an open dialogue somewhat... (even if its not discussing said issues : ) But I'm open to other viewpoints, although, very strong in my own viewpoints....

Thanks for the apology Russ. I appreciate it. Honestly it did hurt. I still don't know quite what is meant as being from another camp...but I don't agree with you on some things either so guess we're even : ) Not using this as an excuse, and kind of personal, but you're mature enough to understand. I just found out I was PMSing after that happened. Just had a second period in a month. I use to have periods every 2 weeks when I first started when I was 12 and, apparently, am going to end my cycles in the same way!!! (I'm assuming I'm doing some peri-menopausal stuff). I was more emotional and reactive when this happened when we had also been discussing things privately. I had no idea that was coming! Normally knowing my cycles gives me some insights into my own emotions but kind of hard when my hormones are erratic like this. So I apologize for my hot headed moments and/or emotional moments.... Please continue to bear with me and be patient!

I would not want to offend or hurt you either... I'm sure I have stepped on your toes here and there with differences, but that is the nature of such a forum....debating differences. I'm learning to accept that. I still appreciate all the information I'm gleaning, too, though and am learning a lot about how people think out there! I wonder how different it would all be without the internet that way.... : ) I normally speak to folks more face to face...

No problem. Stay happy!

Hey, there are some herbs that may help with what you're experiencing. You probably already know about them, but just in case you don't, here are some links...

PMS Homeopathic

Menstrual Reg

Wild Yam and Chaste Tree

Hope this helps.

Hi Jeanie,
I just now received your most kind enote. Thank you.

Jeanie, you said you are "open" to others' viewpoints....so may I ask that you go to the Bible Forum and read "THAT YOU MAY KNOW", which I just now posted.

You know, precious Jeanie, I feel very saddened that your theology of Mormonism has 'Twisted the Truth". You will not understand this, Jeanie, without the help of the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Trinity.

"I can talk (type) all day until I'm blue in the face,
but I'd rather tell you about His saving GRACE.
Jesus, He died for you."

That chorus was in a song which I first heard, when the LORD saved me! The definition of grace, is God's unmerited favor.

Please, ask the LORD to open your spiritual mind to what He would have you to KNOW concerning His free gift of salvation.

Be blessed by reading the message from "Our Daily Bread".

I'm not very computer savvy, so I don't do the copy and paste things. I may, later, 'Lord willing send you a few quotes from this book, "Truth Twisters" by Harold Berry from Back to the Bible at another time. Jesus loves you so very much.

Jesus Christ said, "I and the Father are one." Jesus was supernaturally conceived by Mary through the Holy Spirit. Jesus was never married.

I'm not feeling quite 'up to par' at this time. So, I will get back with you at another time. Please ask the Lord, Jehovah Jireh, (the God Who provides) to show you His truth. I really do care. But, OH,JEANIE! He cares much more than any other person on this earth. He died on the cross to set you (all of us) free from sin, self, satan and the world.

May the Lord bless you with His Truth!
Sincerely, Abishag <><

Thank you Abishag, but I am and will be fine... I am open to understanding others viewpoints, but I have a very strong testimony of the truthfulness of my own beliefs. (So don't worry about taking the time to type for my sake). I'm afraid it is others who do the twisting of what we believe. I'm not offended you think that, but don't concern yourself. I know you mean well.

Hi there Jeanie!
'just stopping by to say , "HELLO", I hope you are well and 'in the joy of our Lord Jesus'.
"Weeping may endure for a night but joy comes in the morning.!" AMEN!

You are a very nice person, Jeanie. BTW, you mentioned something about your age??? I figured about 42 + since you have mentioned PMS ! LOL!
I remember those days....awful! So now you can probably guess my age as well. LOL! The BIG "M" ! BOOOO!

OK, girl, just wanted to wish you well. Like Russ said, "Be HAPPY!"
The JOY OF THE LORD IS OUR STRENGTH! JOY !
J = JESUS
O = Others
Y = Yourself
Jesus first, others second, and yourself last. Neat huh? LOL!
Have a great weekend, girl.
Take care, Abishag <><