News you won't see in controlled mainstream media.

Is Our Country on Thin Ice?

The United States was founded on the basis that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are "unalienable rights," endowed by the Creator. In the mid-1900s, the Pledge of Allegiance was amended to convey a similar idea--that we are "one nation under God."

Soon however, morality in our land took a downward turn, and over the past 50 years, the Founders' vision has become clouded. One indicator is the media--if a citizen in 1950 could have seen some of our current TV programs, he no doubt would have been shocked by the language, dress, and content.

Can the attempt to remove Jesus from the public square have anything to do with our crumbling values? Perhaps. A country that takes prayer out of schools and government meetings can easily drift from godly ways. We have even debated removing "In God We Trust" from our currency and "one nation under God" from the Pledge. What's more, our nation is sometimes so accepting of "all religions" that Christians are persecuted for believing Jesus is the only way (John 14:6).

God is holy, so surely He doesn't approve of all the actions sanctioned by our laws. Yet He has been patient--and we've been blessed beyond measure. But the Father's patience won't last forever (Neh. 9:30). America must repent of its choice to disregard His precepts.

//As citizens, Christians have a responsibility to influence government decisions in the direction of righteousness. Ask for God's guidance as you determine how to stand up for Him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pastor Charles Stanley
In Touch Ministries

Blessings, Abishag
IN GOD WE TRUST <><

I think our country is definitely on thin ice....

I don't believe gods have any awareness, perception or acknowledgement of borders and countries. It matters not to Them. Land is land, people call each other by a national label because these are man-made borders, man-made labels.

Just my two cents.

Good points, but I still hold that America is a choice land that was set aside for a special purpose and has been protected as that and under those circumstances... (That she remembers Him). He does love us all. But all lands are blessed according to their righteousness. We watch over Israel, too....

So you believe that your gods fix Their divine eyes upon the U.S. more than other nations? That the beacon of Their gaze falls on Michigan but the instant it crosses onto Canadian soil in Windsor They lose focus?

If I were from another country, I reckon I would translate your words to mean supremacy. No offense but that's how it comes across. Why is your country better or somehow under the grace of your god moreso than, say, Ghana? What about unpopulated lands like Antarctica? What would happen if people began populating these lands? Do They draw the line on the precise spot that we, humans, draw our lines for countries? What happens if a snail perched upon a dew-moistened leaf in the U.S. crosses the border? Is said snail no longer blessed? Is it less blessed than before?

I know these sound like arrogant questions but stating the U.S. is somehow under more divine influence or grace, etc. begs these questions.

Its more like what I stated...it was saved for a special purpose (we believe the restoration of the fullness of the Gospel) and a place for freedom of religion. This country has been a place of refuge for a lot of people but is also held to a higher standard.

This is a quote from a talk by one of the presidents of our church who was in govt., Ezra Taft Benson. (I think it gets Abishag's point, too).

"For centuries our forefathers suffered and sacrificed that we might be the recipients of the blessings of freedom. If they were willing to sacrifice so much to establish us as a free people, should we not be willing to do the same to maintain that freedom for ourselves and for future generations?

Only in this foreordained land, under its God-inspired Constitution and the resulting environment of freedom, was it possible to have established the restored church. It is our responsibility to see that this freedom is perpetuated so that the Church may more easily flourish in the future.

The Lord said, “Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land” (D&C 98:6).

How then can we best befriend the Constitution in this critical hour and secure the blessings of liberty and ensure the protection and guidance of our Father in Heaven?

First and foremost, we must be righteous.

John Adams said, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” (The Works of John Adams, ed. C. F. Adams, Boston: Little, Brown Co., 1851, 4:31). If the Constitution is to have continuance, this American nation, and especially the Latter-day Saints, must be virtuous.

The Book of Mormon warns us relative to our living in this free land: “Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever” (2 Ne. 1:7).

“And now,” warned Moroni, “we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity” (Ether 2:9).

Two great American Christian civilizations—the Jaredites and the Nephites—were swept off this land because they did not “serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ” (Ether 2:12). What will become of our civilization?

Second, we must learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers.

Have we read The Federalist papers? Are we reading the Constitution and pondering it? Are we aware of its principles? Are we abiding by these principles and teaching them to others? Could we defend the Constitution? Can we recognize when a law is constitutionally unsound? Do we know what the prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it?

As Jefferson said, “If a nation expects to be ignorant and free … it expects what never was and never will be” (Letter to Colonel Charles Yancey, 6 Jan. 1816).

Third, we must become involved in civic affairs to see that we are properly represented.

The Lord said that “he holds men accountable for their acts in relation” to governments “both in making laws and administering them” (D&C 134:1). We must follow this counsel from the Lord: “Honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil” (D&C 98:10).

Note the qualities that the Lord demands of those who are to represent us. They must be good, wise, and honest.

Fourth, we must make our influence felt by our vote, our letters, our teaching, and our advice.

We must become accurately informed and then let others know how we feel. The Prophet Joseph Smith said: “It is our duty to concentrate all our influence to make popular that which is sound and good, and unpopular that which is unsound. ‘Tis right, politically, for a man who has influence to use it. … From henceforth I will maintain all the influence I can get” (History of the Church, 5:286).

I have faith that the Constitution will be saved as prophesied by Joseph Smith. It will be saved by the righteous citizens of this nation who love and cherish freedom. It will be saved by enlightened members of this Church—among others—men and women who understand and abide the principles of the Constitution.

I reverence the Constitution of the United States as a sacred document. To me its words are akin to the revelations of God, for God has placed His stamp of approval upon it.

I testify that the God of heaven sent some of His choicest spirits to lay the foundation of this government, and He has now sent other choice spirits to help preserve it.

We, the blessed beneficiaries of the Constitution, face difficult days in America, “a land which is choice above all other lands” (Ether 2:10).

May God give us the faith and the courage exhibited by those patriots who pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.

May we be equally as valiant and as free, I pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen."

I pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen."

Jesus spent most of his final night giveing encouragement
to his faithfull apostles. It was the appropriate time to
reveal something new...

" I am the way and the truth and the life, "
Jesus said. " No one comes to the Father except through me."
" What ever it is that you ask in my name, I will do(it),
in order that the Father may be glorified in the Son,
if you ask anything in my name , I will do it."
Toward the end of the discussion, Jesus said:
" Untill now you asked nothing in My name; ask, and you will recieve, so that your joy may be full."

Truely, Truely, I say to you, Whatever you may ask the Father in My name, He will give to you..

I pray in the name of Jesus too..
He taught us how to pray..
A name above every other name..
A superior basis of approach..
------ John 14:6,13,14;16:24...

A shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance
of the things."-- Hebrews 10:1,2...

The shadow gave way to the reality-- Colossians 2:17..

It's founded on obedience to Christ Jesus..
----- John 15:14-16; Galatians 3:24,25..

Thats what we do.. ((( Smiles )))

I believe God blesses a nation to be a blessing to other nations. I do not believe it means favouritism, just as much as I do not believe those chosen by God to prophecy/warn others are especially favoured or superior, but rather God works through whom He wishes to reach others.

It's always been that way. Only God knows why. All people are equal in importance to Him, or He would not have died such a cruel death on a cross for each human being (no exception)....so I hardly see how anybody could possibly claim "unfairness". It is actually a great responsibility when God calls a person/nation to be a help to others. I would not wish to answer to Him if such a blessing had been bestown to me and I had misued/abused it.

Bex, that is a great way to put it. America has served to fight bullies. I watched the movie Pearl Harbor a couple of weeks ago with tears streaming down my face. I fear it will take
another trauma to awaken this sleeping giant again... 9/11 woke us up some - it aroused our patriotism, but it is weak again.

God loves us all equally. Of course....

Pwcca,

I have no unearthly idea how all of this chit-chat came about. I posted the message from Pastor Charles Stanley regarding the United States of America, simply because we are in an election year for the next President of the United States. Whoever is elected will be in our Oval office for Presidency for the next 4 years. It is a crucial time for us.

I will reply further to this tomorrow if necessary. As Bex said, our God, the LORD Jehovah is ONE God, and there is no other. He loves all people the same. He does not show favorites.

John 3:16 "For God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only begotten son (Jesus), that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

We serve a Triune God. He is ONE person, with three distinct personhoods, God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit.

Thank you for your replies. But can we please get back to the purpose of the post in the first place? Our Country needs desperate prayer and repentance.
Thank you, Blessings, Abishag <><

I'll start by saying that Jeanie and I are from different camps, although she is certainly a nice and intelligent person.

The Biblical position (and the one I believe) is that any people who decide to live by the covenant that God has offered can be blessed. Those who don't will be cursed (their quality of life will diminish). The choice is ours.

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live..."
(Deuteronomy 30:19)

God made a covenant with Abraham (who became a nation), which was later broken (not by God). God therefore extended the covenant to all mankind (all nations) to provoke Abraham's descendants (the nations) to jealousy.

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."
(Romans 11:11)

This truth is also echoed in the parable of the marriage supper:

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen."
(Matthew 22:2-14)

To gain a deeper understanding of the "grafting in" of the strangers, I would read Romans 11:

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."
(Romans 11:1-36)

Back to the question at hand.

God deals with each of us individually, but He also deals with us on a national level. God does not respect the boundaries of nations. He sets them.

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."
(Zechariah 14:16-19)

You can see evidence of God hand in history by the prophecies revealing certain numbers of days that would pass between significant events. God's hand is in this, but so is the hand of evil, so things get complicated. Evil is like that.

Every person is in a covenant with someone. Your actions decide what covenant you are in. There is no neutral. You serve the God of your actions. No exceptions.

"Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
(John 8:34-36)

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
(Romans 6:16-23)

Mankind gave the title (ownership) of the Earth to Satan in the garden by obeying him. Christ took the title back and will execute repossession shortly. If you are Christ's (you obey Him, which you can only do by faith), you will be part of His glorious kingdom. If you are not, you will remain in Satan's horrific kingdom.

Obedience has always been a factor in the quality of life we have. It is not the only factor, but if you live in a covenant with Yahweh, it has been my experience (and dramatically so) that my quality of life improves dramatically.

Similarly, if a nation obeys God, blessings also come upon the nation. This is why the United States has been so blessed; Because it has been obedient and lived according to Biblical law. (Most English common law comes from the Bible.)

This has changed in recent decades and now we are on the brink of economic collapse. Obedience to God brings a better quality of life, generally speaking.

God deals with us both individually and as a nation.

Absolutely.

To fail to be active in influencing government is to fail the greatest opportunity God has given us to teach and to glorify Him in this world.

AMEN and AMEN!
Thank you so very much, Russ! Your godly insight will be rewarded both on this earth and then throughout eternity, with our Sovereign Lord and Saviour, JESUS THE HOLY ONE!

MAY GOD BLESS AMERICA!

"PLEASE, O Sovereign LORD, forgive our land, (the United States of America), for we have truly back-slidden on You."
JESUS IS LORD! Blessings, Abishag <><

Please continue on this topic in Page 2 . It may not be noticed after reading my last post, however the following information is most important!!

Thank you, Abishag <><

For those who took the time to read the wonderful posts by Russ in this thread....can you share with others what specifically 'spoke to your heart'?

Two very dynamic 'personal thoughts' caught my attention, big time:

"You serve the God of your actions."

"If you are Christ's (you obey Him, which you can only do by faith), you will be part of His glorious KIngdom....if not you will remain in Satan's horrific kingdom."

The Lord never forces Himself on anyone. The choice is an individual's, 'personal' decision.

Eternity is a long time to wish you had made a different choice. Please don't wait. Tomorrow might be too late.

Joshua 24:15 "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord."

You may not be here tomorrow, please turn to Jesus, repent of your sins, ask for His forgiveness, and accept His atoning blood on calvary's cross for your eternal destiny. PLEASE!

:rainbow:
The Bible also tells us "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth.." Yes, the angels will rejoice to know the Lord has gained another soul to spend in the Celestial City with Him forever.
JESUS LOVES SINNERS!
Blessings, Abishag <><

Sorry, but the only thing that spoke to my heart was how he opened his remarks. I don't exactly follow the church of Russ.

This passage is in regard to the choice of the entire people of Israel to follow God. It starts in chapter 29 where God points out that the nation must not serve other gods or it will be cursed. It seems like a good match to the condition that our country is in. However, our country has never served Christ in any official capacity. Shouldn't we be cursed already? Shouldn't Christians be fighting to put this country lock, stock and barrel in subservience to Christ? Shouldn't we be removing those other gods from the public square?


Does this not also apply to our founding fathers who made light of God by purposely legislating that other religions should be allowed to flourish in this nation? Have we been accumulating 233 years of God's wrath by not standing against this spread of false religion within our own country?

So our country has been against God from the beginning by the action of assisting and encouraging other religions.

However, He has not dealt with us yet even though our nation has been a breeding ground for false religions since before its foundation. God has not been honored by our laws. The founding document for this nation expressed their disdain for God by making room for Buddhists, Muslims and Satanists. How can you say our country was ever a Christian nation when its most honored documents set aside Christ?

Most puzzling, though, is the fact that you don't demand a change. Do you not care that the altars of other religions stand in the high places of our country?

Scoffers...

Now Russ is supposed to explain why he doesn't think like Straw Russ? If you're going to supply one Straw Russ, why not just supply the other as well?

Better yet, put sox on your hands and let them yack back and forth. If either of them ever says anything noteworthy, that's what you might consider posting.

Linear I'm confused here.....Wasn't it you that was complaing that Christianity is forced down people's throats? I seem to recall your complaints about this and arguing with you about it. Now you turn around and start playing things from another side. It appears now, that we just haven't enforced it enough....what kind of game is this?

Perhaps it is easier to point ones index finger at the window on the Christian world and find fault, rather than employing that same index finger at reflective glass. I feel a song coming on.....



If you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself then make a change....Ooooh!!


You know it

Not a game. I was pointing out an inconsistency.

The whole post by Russ was about the U.S. not following God and the fact that we will not enjoy His blessings because of that.
Russ then says:

So I have to ask the question: How can we be considered obedient when the very first of our overarching laws states that the government allows religions other than Christianity to florish? Haven't we been disobedient for these past 233 years? Shouldn't we be prosecuting the heresy of Islam instead of paying their schools to educate their children in the tenents of their religion (see school vouchers)? Was the lesson of the Babylonian Exile just for the Hebrews?

If God has blessed us so much in the past, even though our government supports other religions, does this mean that He doesn't care what religion we decide to choose? The claim of blessing because of obedience does not seem to line up with the facts of U.S. history.

Is the the best answer that you can come up with?
What part of my post is building a "Straw Russ"?

Your post doesn't reveal where you stand on this issue. Do you believe that we should enact laws that follow the Bible's moral laws? What about laws that follow the 10 commandments?

What difference does it make if I reveal my views? Can't you supply some for me? Or is Russ privileged?

And you've little room to talk on that head. You haven't presented your own views, best I can tell. If any of that stuff is yours, let's see you claim it. If not, what's it there for? I interpret it as an obvious trap: a set of ideas you'd like Russ to adopt so you can argue against it. But if it's really how you feel, do correct me.

Russ stated that this country will not be blessed by God if we continue to make laws that don't follow Biblical Law:


Was I making an untoward assumption that when Russ wrote about law that he meant his comments to be about law?

Not a trap. I disagree with Russ' conclusion concerning blessing of the U.S. by God. I consider it an inconsistency in his position. He believes that U.S. laws should line up more with Biblical Law. Does this include the First Amendment to the Constitution or not?
What about you? Do you agree with the statements that Russ made in post #40834? Do you feel that I am misunderstanding his position concerning U.S. law?

If you do agree with Russ' position about aligning U.S. law with Biblical law, what specific things, that are currently legal, do you believe should be made illegal?

But you don't state your position. Neither do you argue against Russ' stated position.

Why didn't you simply ask? Russ' complaints are about recent events, and the amendment you mention isn't recent, so it doesn't look at all to me like he was complaining about it.

In spite of all your efforts, I really doubt you or anyone else misunderstands Russ.

"Hypothetically speaking", an "hypothetical entity" could have difficulties understanding what he said. "Hypothetical" entities can have hypothetical trouble understanding anything you can name. The problem is: on what basis could anyone trust the competence of such an "hypothetical entity"?

Besides, I'm more interested in hearing how wonderful a utopia we can fall into under your dream plan, which evidently is not to follow God's instruction. I am confident you won't be able to produce biblical support for any such position.

I don't disagree with much of what Russ said. I do disagree with Straw Russ. Funny how that works out, ain't it?

In summary, since you're not here advancing a position of your own, or addressing an actual position taken by anyone else, your activities seem analogous to a vandal with a can of spray paint in an art gallery. You're not here to contribute; you're not here to appreciate what others contribute.

What is his stated position? He doesn't give specifics, just some generalized our-country-is-moving-away-from-God whining.

However, the fact that the founders of this nation specifically deny Christianity an exclusive position, shows that the move away from God is not recent. In colonial times, prostitution was legal, slavery was legal, and killing native Americans was not a prosecutable offense. Would you or Russ consider that society as closer or further from God than we are today?

Really? Then, what is is position? What specific problems is he concerned about? Which laws does he feel indicate this recent move away from God?

I never claimed that a utopia would result from any plan that I had. I didn't say we should not follow God's instruction. Russ, and you, claim that we should enact laws that follow God's instruction. What instructions, specifically, should the U.S. codify into law?

Biblical support for any plan of mine would be:
Leviticus 19:18
Matthew 7:12

Except you have merely claimed that I created a straw Russ. You have not supported that claim. Which words of mine created a straw Russ?

Actually, I am here to have people define their claim. Charles Stanley's quote claims that we allow less moral television than in the 1950's. Does that mean we are less or more moral now than then. Were husbands more or less abusive to their wives and children? Was prostitution more or less rampant then? Were there more or less unwed mothers per capita then than there is now?

What is the yardstick being used by Charles Stanley, and those that agree with him, to determine that the U.S. is in worse shape biblically now than in the 1950's, 1850's or 1780's?

Saying it is worse is not the same as showing it to be so.

From message #40723:


Did Charles Stanley believe that God sanctioned the First Amendment or that He has been patient for 226 years?

Did Dr. Stanley mean that we should repent of the First Amendment?

Jesus is removed from the public square? Where? Except it government buildings, where? Which Christians have had to go into hiding? How many churches in your town have been closed by the government? How many government sponsored anti-Jesus protests have been conducted in front of your church? For that matter, how many anti-Jesus protests have been conducted in front of your church at all?
Does Dr. Stanley have to broadcast from a secret studio and over a hidden transmitter like Voice of America in communist countries?

What form has this Christian persecution taken? What indications do you have that it is a government sponsored persecution?

I cannot believe that you, Linear, call yourself a CHRISTian!

Since I originally made this post by Dr. Charles Stanley, I find you to be most offensive, disrespectful, and ignorant of what a true Follower-of-the-Lord Jesus is!

May I enlighten you, the Holy Bible tells people such as yourself, Linear Aq, "Touch not mine anointed and do my prophets no harm." 1 Chronicles 16:22 and Psalm 105:15.

And with all of these ridiculous questions you seem to have, you are more than welcome to contact 'In Touch Ministries' yourself!

<Intouch.org> - or you can ask Dr. Charles Stanley a question personally at this website: <askdrstanley@intouch.org>

Your ignorance of the Bible is very obvious, Linear! Perhaps you should search your heart, pray and ask the Lord to 'open your spiritual eyes', and read the book of ROMANS!

Allow me to assist you....Romans 6:14- tells us, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye (Christians) are not under the law, but under grace."

What's all this needless talk about 'following the law'?

Jesus has set us free from the Law. Of course, you may not know that since you are so busy ridiculing Dr. Charles Stanley, not to mention so many others on the evolution/creatiion form.

Allow me to enlighten you, Evolutionist Christian (?)
Galatians 5:18 tells us, "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

How about informing us exactly what the Doctrine of the 'Evolutionist Christian' is. It appears to be totally hypocrisy!

Allow me to also help you with James 1:8 "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." (Hello?)

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. cleanse your hands ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." James 4:8

You rant and rave on with your strife and confusion. Why not read James 3:14-18. You want to have 'peace'? Do what the Holy Scriptures tell you, Linear.

Abishag

What happened? Did you get lost on the way to the "Evolutionist/Creation" Forum? I can't possibly see where you can fit in over in the Bible Forum, that is, unless you are giving your own 2 cents worth of it's Inerrancy?

The Bible is completely TRUTH! Do you have a problem with that? Why not take it up with Jehovah God, Himself, as did Eliphaz the Temanite, and Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite? Surely you know who they were?

Jehovah M-Kaddesh, allows people (even in the Old Testament, Jews) to go so far.....then he says, "That's enough!"

Abishag
BTW: This Country, the USA - WAS founded on Biblical Precepts/ as I believe Russ has clearly stated. We have fallen away from God in our Public Schools, (and government)- and He has taken His hand off America. Whether you believe it or not, Linear!
What do you call "same-sex" marriage, abortion, disallowed the Pledge of Allegiance in the Public Schools, no talk of Bilical History?

Disagreement with someone is not disrespectful.

Is Dr. Stanley one of God's anointed or a prophet? How am I to tell? He claims to speak for God. So did Joseph Smith but you don't agree that he was a prophet. Am I to simply accept that every word from Dr. Stanley is a proclamation from God? Are we not supposed to test the words of the prophets (Deut 18:18-22)?

They don't answer my questions.

I am not sure how this applies to my questions about Dr. Stanley's proclamations.

Disagreement is not ridicule. The laws that Dr. Stanley appears to be talking about are U.S. laws not the Laws of Moses. I have restricted my comments to U.S. laws also.

Those are not the laws that I am talking about. That is, unless you feel that Christians shouldn't obey the laws of the government. I believe Paul and Peter both made statements about that.
Romans 13:1-7
1 Peter 2:13-17

Please show me where my statements have been hypocritical.

I don't feel double minded. I don't call sin "good" and righteousness "sin". If you don't feel that you are sinning by criticizing my position then I should not feel I am sinning by criticizing yours.

Which part of my post seems filled with bitter envy or selfish ambition? What do I gain by asking questions or pointing out problems that I see with your positions?

What did your post of Dr. Stanley's statement have to do with Bible inerrancy? What did it have to do with the Bible at all except for his perception that our country was moving away from biblical law. In fact, the word "Bible" wasn't in the statement at all.

Not at all. Truth can be conveyed with fictional tales.

They didn't actually speak to God so I have no idea what you are asking me to do.

What biblical principles are the basis for the Amendments to the Constitution of the United States? Should we discuss this at length...one amendment at a time? It would certainly be a basis for a good Bible study.

A contract for a union between 2 persons of the same sex, to share assets, cohabitate, and allow use of public laws and privileges accorded to married couples. The Bible does not address same sex marriage in a direct fashion. Just like other sins (lust, covetousness, gluttony...etc), it will not be addressed by U.S. law.
I am personally against it and the Bible speaks to it indirectly in 2 places.
Exodus 21:22 No consideration that the unborn child is killed.
Numbers 5: A jealous husband can arrange for his wife to drink a bitter potion that would cause an abortion.
Never heard of this one. Could you provide a link or some other evidence that this was government sanctioned?
Again, I am unaware of any laws that prohibit the teaching of Biblical History. You have a reference that I can look at regarding this?

This is so ridiculous, that I don't know whether to laugh or just 'PLAIN FEEL SORRY FOR YOU'!, Linear...

How very "blind" you truly are of the Holy Scriptures! You seem to know {some} verses, and remind me of the Pharisees....

You obviously did not read the very first post on this prolonged thread! Also, you must enjoy the 'copy and paste' button, then replying with your ridiculous replies, WITHOUT EVEN ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS THAT SPEAK SPECIFICALLY TO YOU!

CTD has asked you, and so have I, what exactly is the Doctrine of the [so called] Christian Evolutionist???? You are so much like those prophesied by Isaiah the prophet....I won't entertain you with all the verses, so you can misinterpret God's Holy Word,....'eyes to see but cannot see, ears to hear but cannot hear....'

Oh! Knock it off! This one should fit you, "..the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.....not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble are called...

BUT God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty...."

As an ambassador of Christ, I am saying to you, Linear, "No flesh should glory in his presence."....

Of course, you will deny this. So what else is new?
Abishag <><

If Russ has no stated position, what have you been arguing against?

Oops! It seems he has a position after all...

How can that be? Whence cometh such double-talk?

I have not seen where Christianity was singled out and denied anything at all. I see where the government was denied authority to pollute the church(es) with politics and corruption. Do you resent this decision?

Flip-flopping again. Now Russ doesn't have a position? Will you ever make up your mind(s)?

So one cannot have a position until no questions about the position can be asked? I guess nobody will ever have any position on anything in that case.

Ah, a modest one. At least when modesty serves as a means to evasion.

You argue against those who maintain we should. And your argument, as slippery as you try to be, betrays quite a bit.

For example, a fellow Christian might argue along the lines of "Yes, we should follow God's instruction, but it would entail x instead of y." Your argument is nothing like that at all. It is in no way consistent with one who thinks we should follow God's instruction; and in all ways consistent with one who would have us do the opposite.

I don't recall making such a claim.

'Would'? Not 'is'. Not 'will'.

Um, duh, me too stoopido. Me cannot scroll up. Me forget where to even find earlier posts in thread.

Has anyone not said what they intended to say? All indications are that they have. Your "assistance" does not appear to be needed or desired. Evidently people know how to log in and post just fine on their own.

Why don't you provide answers? Anyone can keep asking questions indefinitely.

Who needs a yardstick? Can one not observe that a raccoon is bigger than a squirrel until one measures their lengths, widths, heights, and weights?

Why don't you start a thread in a political discussion area and explain how wonderful life would be if only the government were running the church(es). You seem to be the only one captivated with the notion.

Why are you asking us?

One blatantly obvious example is when one's own children are told one is a lair or an idiot. What right has the government to slander honest people?

Of course you probably wouldn't notice - too busy agreeing with the slanderers to question their right.

Even here, you're not concerned that Christians are persecuted. Your purpose is to deny that it happens. It's not hard to guess what manner of "christian" would display such attitudes.

Here's another one you can try to defend: U.S. military personnel stationed in Saudi Arabia and other places were forbidden to take their Bibles. "By law" they must go. This is cut & dried prohibiting Christians from practicing what they believe they should do.

Yet your choice of word and punctuation indicated you feel anger rather than humor or pity.

Then we are not to test our prophets? Which part of those scriptures did I get wrong?

I read the post and there were no questions there that were asked specifically of me. The fact that I have commented on Dr. Stanley's opinion should have given you an indication that I had read the post.

There is no set "doctrine" for a Christian who accepts the theory of evolution. I happen to follow most of the doctrines of the Assemblies of God so I guess you could say that is my particular doctrine.

You are always ready to pronounce me a heretic, misguided or a Pharisee yet provide almost nothing to support those condemnations. What have I done that is like a Pharisee? You say my eyes cannot see but I am not the one who accepts generalized statements about the spiritual status of this country without actually trying to understand the details of the problem. Is the way out of this "backsliding" to legislate the morality of the people or is God asking us, as Christians, to lead by example?
2 Chronicles 7:14

God gave this promise to Solomon when He consecrated the temple. Is this a promise to Christians too? Can we legislate humility, prayer or turning from wicked ways? If not, then how can Christians help to heal the land that is our country?

??? You believe my comments are about the flesh? Dr. Stanley seems to indicate that this is a legal (fleshly) battle rather than a spiritual battle. I disagree. However, if it is a legal battle in which we should make gay marriage, homosexuality, adultery, fornication, lust and other things illegal then why not go all the way and make other religions besides Christianity illegal? Why are Christians that want to make American laws out of Biblical laws reluctant to make the first commandment into an American law?

Do you really think you are confounding me?

And this applies to the discussion...how?

I don't deny the statement...just the applicability.

My understanding of Russ' position is that he agrees with Dr. Stanley that the laws of the U.S. allow sinful things so our society is moving away from God. I guess I should have accommodated your inability to understand context when I replied.

Nice quote mine taken out of a separate post from the one you are replying to. Marginally dishonest behavior from a moderator, tisk-tisk.

Context....take an English course if you can't seem to master reading comprehension on your own. The point was that the founders of the country did not give Christianity a favored position. Acting stupid is not a good means to avoid debating in good faith.
As for politics, that exists in churches already. You're over 40 years old and you haven't seen this? I have served on church boards for 12 years and it is difficult to run a church without politics creeping in.

Semantics over substance. Getting a straight-forward answer from you is just too much to expect. Maybe you have served on church boards. You must have been one of the rich ones that thought their welfare was more important than that of the rest of the congregation.

One cannot solve a problem until that problem is defined. If you just want to cry about it instead of facing it down then maybe you should remove yourself from this Army.

Is it your plan to insult your opposition all day or actually provide answers to direct question?

No one has said what "x" is. That's the problem. No one in this thread has provided any definition of where the country is moving away from God or what should be done about it. It appears that they want to align the legal system up with God's instructions. All of them? Including the first commandment?

Of course you didn't, you merely imply it so that way you can evade the issue when confronted. Maybe you could stand better if you actually put on that armor of God.

If my plan were enacted then those verses would be the cornerstone of my policy.

A reply like this looks like misdirection. Try to debate in good faith and point out the post where you showed me what I said that built a straw Russ.

Sure, they can post that they think the country is moving away from and that we need to "follow God's instructions". I can also post that you are a sensational jerk but that has no real meaning without the evidence to support my opinion about your jerkhood.

Good point. I will work on it.

If you can't see the animals in question then you have no way to make that evaluation. I was asking by what means do they determine that things are worse now than in, say....1783.

Why don't you read more of Paul's letters to understand the literary device I was using. It might also help you to stand instead of using evasion.

Because Dr. Stanley doesn't answer my questions and you all seem to agree with his statement from the first post. Looks like you intend to follow Dr. Stanley's lead and avoid answering also.

Please provide evidence that the government has told "one's own children" that "one is a lair[sic] or an idiot."

One that needs to see evidence of government sponsored persecution before crying it from the rooftops. "The boy who cried wolf" ring a bell?

A friend of mine stationed in Saudi Arabia has a Bible. However, I have seen information on line that states Bibles are confiscated and other information that Bibles are allowed. Could you point me to your source of info on this?

Why on earth you, Linear, are still on this Forum is a mystery to me, that's for sure. I honestly wish you'd get "BANNED", as did MOST of your former Evo/Creation buddies!

You don't even know how to read, let alone interpret Scriptures of God's Holy Words. You asked me, "Do you really think you are confounding me?" Good grief, can't you even SEE that Person, is the CREATOR of this Universe speaking to YOU, Linear!!?

Then on post #50072 - You stated "There is no set "doctrine" for a Christian who accepts the theory of evoution. I happen to follow most of the doctrines of the Assemblies of God...so I guess you could say that is my particular doctrine."

Ah-Hah! Now we are getting somewhere.

Surely you wouldn't mind if I present your "beliefs" to my son, who happens to be a licensed Pastor/Preacher of an Assemblies of God Church? (The Lord is my witness), He is my son of my FLESH, not just spiritually, by the way....don't want you to twist that one all around.

You are truly the most confused, double minded, mixed up person I know on this forum. I have scrolled backwards, and found several of your posts even denying the 'faith' altogether. Then you join in with the LDS/Mormon Church, which if you have any discernment of the Holy Word, would know THAT belief is total BLASPHEME! Don't ask me anymore questions, read all those posts for yourself!

You are wasting your time and this forum's time with your unending contradictions of YOURSELF!

Pastor Charles Stanley is an anointed Pastor/Preacher of the Word of the living Christ Jesus. And for your information, he is indicating BOTH SPIRITUAL and FLESHLY sides to his statements. Of course....you can't discern that?

Linear, I boast not in myself but in the Lord Jesus Christ, I have been walking with my Lord Jesus for over 23 years....He alone knows my heart.

No, I'm not angry, Linear. As I said, I don't know whether to laugh or JUST PLAIN FEEL SORRY FOR YOU/ I pity you, a man so ignorant of Spiritual things, yet with the audacity to come over to the Bible Forum and start criticizing God's Holy Word /Pastor Stanley. (of course you will deny this)

One day we all, (even you) will stand before the Creator of this universe and give an account for every idle word we have thought/spoken/typed, etc, etc. JESUS IS LORD! JESUS IS LORD!



Abishag <><

I guess I provide some sort of entertainment value.

I knew what the quote was. You were using it to put me in the place that you think I deserve to go.

Does he also believe that treating people poorly is a means of getting them to come to you when they need help?

Mistakes of the past cannot be forgiven in your doctrine I guess.

Because no pastor has ever been wrong, we should not question Dr. Stanley.

Ok...something on topic. So what, specifically, is the problem that he is addressing spiritually?
What are the fleshly problems that he is concerned about in his statement?

I never questioned your sincerity.

I don't equate everything that Pastor Stanley says with God's Holy Word. If you could point out where in this thread I have questioned God's Holy Word, it would be easier to accept your criticism.

When we do, I can only say that I tried to follow the Word as I understood it. If God wants me to understand it in the same way that you do then it is up to Him to have the Holy Spirit reveal it to me that way. That is one of the jobs of the Spirit isn't it?

With little exception, your post was an attack against me personally. While I admit that a little tit-for-tat sniping is acceptable, I don't think you are supporting your position very well by making holy proclamations about my status as a Christian or sinner.

I realize this is a forum and not a debate site. You may feel that you should be able to declare the perfect insight of Dr. Stanley without any disagreement. However, some do disagree or at least feel that bare statements such as his need to be explored further. Dr. Stanley does not hold the corner on the interpretation of the Bible or U.S. History and his declarations are not holy writ.

He says there is a problem but does not define it adequately, leaving it up to his loyal followers to define it for themselves. Additionally, he offers no solution beyond "following God's instructions" and "getting involved". Totally inadequate and deserving of questioning.

This isn't the atheism section of the forum. I think I can rely on the memories of most Christians to recall the troops being deprived of Bibles. I remember it pretty clearly myself. There were interviews with soldiers on the news; it wasn't any secret at all. Those who may have personally forgotten - well, ask around.

I expect a visit to one's local VFW chapter would settle the issue in a hurry.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I know how heavy-handed the military can be. All I'm saying is that I have an Air Force friend who is in Saudi and he has a Bible. My son went to Iraq twice and kept his Bible the whole time.
I have also read about the removal of Bibles from the troops before they went to Saudi and about allowing troops to keep their Bibles while there.
Obviously the reality is more complex than the simple "they can't take their Bibles" or "Bibles can be taken". If you are not willing to seek the truth or support your side then why bring it up at all?

If I wasn't willing to help folks seek the truth I wouldn't bring it up. Not much seeking involved for those who actually remember. Now what's more reliable - talking to eyewitnesses at a VFW, or reading claims on the internet?

I don't see a lot of complexity to the issue. Has or has not the U.S. government taken Bibles from people, or assisted others in doing so? If they have, they have violated the constitution. The only out would be if the perpetrators had been brought to justice and convicted of treason, as they fully deserve to be.

http://www.faithnews.cc/2009/04/09/christian-bashing-is-alive-and-well/

The tragic church shooting and death of Rev. Fred Winters, pastor of First Baptist Church, Maryville Ill., has once again raised one of the most under-reported issues within the media today: violence directed at Christians and churches.

While the recent church shooting in Illinois this past March did receive some coverage, the full extent of violence against the church has not been adequately discussed. If this kind of event had happened at a Mosque or Synagogue there would have been non-stop media coverage and a cry for “hate crime” prosecution. Because it only happened to a Christian there is little outcry.

The Christian Anti-Defamation Commission has compiled a partial list of recent church shootings:

- Feb. 18, 2009: A man committed suicide in front of a cross at the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove, Calif.

- August 12, 2007: A lone gunman opened fire in a Missouri Micronesian church, killing a pastor and two other churchgoers.

- May 20, 2007: A standoff between police and a suspect at a Moscow, Idaho church ended with three dead, including one police officer.

- Oct. 2, 2006: A man in Lancaster County, Pa., killed five girls and then himself at an Amish school.

- May 20, 2006: Four were killed by a man at Jesus Christ Church in Louisiana.

- Feb. 26, 2006: Two people were killed at Zion Hope Missionary Baptist Church in Michigan by a man who later killed himself.

- April 9, 2005: A 27-year-old died after being shot at a church in College Park, Ga.

- March 12, 2005: A man walked into the Living Church of God in Milwaukee and opened fire, killing seven people.

- Oct. 5, 2003: A woman opened fire in Turner Monumental A.M.E. church in Kirkwood, Ga., killing the pastor, her mother, and herself.

- March 12, 2002: During Sunday Mass, Peter J. Troy fatally shot the Rev. Lawrence M. Penzes and parishioner Eileen Tosner.

- Sept. 16, 1999: Seven young people were killed when a man opened fire during a prayer service for teenagers at the Wedgewood Baptist Church in Fort Worth, Texas.

Anti-Christian hostility is reaching a new, more violent level. Christians are mocked and our faith and values are increasingly maligned. Anti-Christian bias within the media has played a large part in stirring anti-Christian sentiments.

This is not surprising when you know that 75 percent of major media journalists either seldom or never attend religious services. This is in stark contrast to the rest of America, with 50 percent saying that they attend religious services more than once a month.

To violate the constitution is not treason but I agree that those involved should be brought to task for it. However, the few guys I know from the VFW are old Vietnam vets. We don't have many vets from Iraq and Afghanistan. Besides, I have 2 eyewitnesses to the fact that Bibles were allowed over in Saudi. My son who traveled through Saudi on his first tour to Iraq and an Air Force Master Sargent currently in Saudi. Both of them carried their Bibles in their duffel bags with all their other gear. My son said the bags were searched.
The complexity issue is whether or not the commanding officer who said to remove the Bibles was working under orders or was he just being heavy-handed in preventing proselytizing, which violates military regulations.
Were they personal Bibles or were they Bibles in a language of the locals? Bibles were confiscated in Afghanistan from an enlisted man because it was a large number of Bibles and they were written in an Afghanistan dialect. The enlisted man intended to give them out to the local people. That violated the military regulations and the Afghanistan law.
Frankly, I have found no reference to this wholesale confiscation of Bibles. Maybe it has been purged from internet news sources to hide it. That's why I was asking for a reference.

Your use of the words "violence against the church" indicate that the following examples are of violence against Christians because they are Christians.

The man killed himself. How is this to be considered violence against Christians? The man was later shown to be mentally ill (here).

This was a dispute between the gunman and some individuals in the congregation There are no indications that it was motivated by their being Christians.

The man was in the church shooting at the Moscow courthouse. Doesn't look like violence against the church to me. Maybe you could show me how it is?

The gunman targeted the girls because they were girls not because they were Christians.

This was an estranged husband who killed his wife's relatives and abducted her from the church where her mother was the pastor. Not a hate crime against Christians.

Another Domestic dispute, not a hate crime against Christians.

Couldn't find anything on the internet about this one except repeats of this same line. Do you have a reference with details about this case?

The man was a member of the church who had many problems and may have been set off by a sermon he didn't like. How is this a hate crime against Christians?

The woman killed her mother. Although I couldn't find any details regarding this, I am not inclined to call this a hate crime against Christians because of the relationship between the victim and the killer. Maybe you could point me to some detailed reference that shows it to be different than what it appears.

This one is a maybe. Peter Troy had been treated for mental illness before this but refused to use insanity plea, supposedly. His lawyer is the only witness to that refusal. No substantive motive has been provided by the killer. This one could be labeled as an anti-Christian hate crime.

Although the man was a troubled, unemployed individual, he did attack for unknown reasons and apparently shouted something bad about Baptists. This is probably a hate crime.

2 maybe 3 anti-Christian killings in 10 years does not seem like a major increase unless there were none in the 10 years before that.

Maybe you should actually investigate what you copy from the internet.

You mock "evolutionists" and a great number of Christians on the internet and in print do the same. Should "evolutionists" consider themselves "persecuted"?

Our Constitution ~

"All scripture is given by
inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness.."
2 Timothy 3:16 ~

~~~THE men who framed our Constitution knew they were writing the basic document for a government of free men; they recognized that men could live as free and independent beings only if each one knew and understood the law. They were to know their rights, their privileges, and their limitations. They were to stand as equals before the court of law, and few judges could be unfair; for the judge, too, was bound by the same law and required to try each case accordingly.

As the Constitution is the highest law of the land, so the Bible is the highest law of God. For it is in the Bible that God sets forth His spiritual laws. It is in the Bible that God makes His enduring promises. It is in the Bible that God reveals the plan of redemption for the human race.
~~~~~
Prayer For The Day:
Almighty, God, each day our nation
and we, the people, face so many crises.
May each one of us seek wisdom through Your
Word, the Holy Bible.

Billy Graham/Evangelist
Day by Day~
Blessings, Abishag

~~"The law of the Lord is perfect,
converting the soul..." Psalm 19:7

~~~THE Bible is the constitution of Christianity. Just as the United States Constitution is not of any private interpretation, neither is the Bible of any private interpretation. Just as the Constitution includes all who live under its stated domain, without exception, so the Bible includes all who live under its stated domain, without exception.

God's laws for the spiritual world are found in the Bible. Whatever else there may be that tells us of God, it is more clearly told in the Bible.

Nature in her laws tells us of God, but the message is not too clear. It tells us nothing of the love and grace of God. Conscience, in our inmost being, does tell us of God, but the message is fragmentary. The only place we can find a clear, unmistakable message is in the Word of God, the Holy Bible.
~~~~
Prayer For The Day:
How I pray that the world would live by Your law--
which bears no discrimination but is perfect.
Teach me as I read the Bible to follow Your Commandments--
which are not impossible to obey because of Jesus Christ's
love.
~~~
Billy Graham
Day by Day <><

I did not compile the list myself. Clearly it's a just list of shootings that happened at churches. I never asserted that they all were motivated by this or that.

And I wasn't anticipating a whitewash job. That move took me by surprise. A good deal of that which you'd write off for one excuse or another just can't be written off.

The Joplin story, for example. The man killed three church leaders, and wounded four other people. He's supposed to be "upset with his family"? Why then does he target the church leaders? Why not target his family? Why not go to their house and catch them all together?

Seeing as he was also charged with sodomizing a juvenile, it's even more absurd to pretend one cannot connect the dots.

This business may rate its own thread, actually. I'm not going to take the time to research it fully just now. There's a lot more of this going on than folks probably realize. The media sure downplays it, and it looks like the Feds are in on that game as well.

Check this out

So far so good, huh? Not so fast.
Apparently the FBI has folks like you to explain the hate right out of these things, when they don't want to acknowledge it.

What in the world do you think you're talking about? Exposing liars constitutes "persecution"? Isn't it a shame you have to distort every other word in the language?

I'll tell you something right now. I can defend myself, my beliefs, my friends, and my family. I can and will use words to accomplish the job, and if words aren't enough, I can and will use other resources. Call that whatever you want in evospeak, or just plain untruth. It's the way things are. I don't have to take crap, and you can't make me. Neither will you make me ashamed of the policy.

What a splendid example of twisting the credibility clean out of one's own words. Shooters come in and gun down folks in church, and if you think you can sell (yourself - won't nobody else buy it) any other possible motive it's not persecution. But my defense of truth is. You're playing this junk on the wrong audience. You need a crowd of atheists so blinded by hate and rage they don't care that everyone knows they don't think or talk straight. I can PM you some links to that kind of forum, if you'd like.

No you didn't because apparently all you did is cut and paste an article off of a website. However, the article gave the list after the statement that "the full extent of violence against the church has not been adequately discussed" and then stated afterword "Anti-Christian hostility is reaching a new, more violent level". These two statements framing the incident list show the writer's intent to portray this list as examples of "violence against the church" and "Anti-Christian hostility". Your posting of the article indicates that you agree with the author's conclusions. Now you want to tell me that you didn't understand the article?

Playing stupid is not an adequate defense.

I guess you are not used to someone actually looking into one of your claims.

The article I cited clearly said he had a problem with people in his community making disparaging remarks about him, not his family. They would all be in church together. His killing the church leaders isn't necessarily targeting them. The preacher would be standing up and so easily shot at. The deacons may have been standing and/or likely to react to the situation first.

You have some information that hatred of Christians and child molestation are causally linked? Please present your evidence.

Oh, look! He was mentally ill and kicked out of that missionary prep center in 2002. His roommate there knew Murry was "hearing voices" in his head. Murry did things that "scared" the counselors but all they did was dump him from the program.

While it is not a satisfying answer, it seems that the shootings were not reported as a hate crime by the Colorado Springs police. I guess if the hate crimes bill had been passed before the shootings, then the reporting of that hate crime (I do believe it was a hate crime) wouldn't have depended on the whim of the overworked police or liberal reporters. Your claim that the federal government is hiding hate crimes is a bit weak.

You haven't even come close to showing that the great majority of biologists, geologists, physicists and cosmologists are lying. So that statement is pure baloney.

You're the one who decries the tactics you claim are being used by the evolutionists, yet you use the same tactics. Can you say "hypocritical"? I knew that you could!

Not ashamed of the end-justifies-the-means policy? Why not? Do you think you can win people to your side by publishing half-truths and insults? When did that become part of Christ's Great Commission?

So now it's the truth to depict a troubled man's suicide (first incident in the list) as a hate crime against Christians? Did he hate his own Christianity?

Your invectives against me indicate that you are the one who hates. All I need is an audience that is interested in the whole truth not implied truths that are manufactured by shading the information and leaving out the details. It is this very type of reporting that you have railed against concerning evolution. Why is it ok for you to use it to support your side? You have torn into me for my mistakes of the past and then used that undermine my credibility. Fair enough, but don't expect different treatment than you are willing to provide.

Aligning yourself with the spin doctors of Christianity does nothing except to get the undecided to dismiss your opinions out-of-hand.

I understood it, and I think everyone else understands it too.

"The Christian Anti-Defamation Commission has compiled a partial list of recent church shootings:"

That pretty well tells everyone what the list is, and what it's about.

And yet I continually see it...

Quite a few articles gave the gunman's excuse: "He was upset with family members who made fun of him". Oh yeah...

Congrats on cherry-picking one that didn't.

And even wiki says "Police suspected that he targeted leaders of the church."

This link has his bogus "story".
"In both written and oral statements presented to the court, Saimon said the shooting incident was as a result of embarrassment he suffered at a barbecue days before the shooting. He said he didn’t bring any food to the event, and his relatives gave him a hard time about it, saying he was stealing food for his children."

But guess what? "“I think that you’ll find that the victims were what some would term elders or leaders (of the Micronesian congregation),” Watson told The Associated Press earlier in the day. “As information continues to come forward, it appears that the shots that were fired were not random.”

The victims were not friends or relatives of the gunman, Watson said. "
from another source.

Just how much desire would have to be invested in order to believe that lie? Looks like he learned from the same "master" as the typical scoffer. Still, I don't doubt that the whitewashing will continue. You surprised me once, but don't count on doing it again soon.
Those who do such things may get along well with the object of your worship; the Living God has always been resented and hated by them.

Your refusal to acknowledge truth changes nothing. I have exposed more than one liar, and more than one lie.

Even had I failed completely, how would making the attempt constitute "persecution"? That's the question you think you're dodging.
Now you're just making stuff up. I do not reason in circles, contradict myself, and lie. I keep track of evotactics because it is prudent to do so (and impossible for an intelligent person to avoid noticing obvious patterns). Why would I want to employ any of their consistently self-defeating methods?

I never said "the ends justify the means". Do not project your crud onto me.

Nobody said suicide was a hate crime against anyone. I see you still desire to create straw opponents.

Would it really make you feel better if you drug me down to your level? Of course! That's just one more reason I won't allow it to happen.

You're the one who asked for evidence of persecution, remember? Now that you have it, I'm a bad guy? I don't think so, and I still think this is the wrong audience to play that game on.

Of course Christians are already aware of the persecution that they encounter all the time. I don't have to tell them, and your denial is just an unfunny joke.

Now then, I think this is enough straying from the topic. If there's nothing left to discuss, perhaps the thread should be closed.