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Romans 14:14


The context of the above verse concerns itself with right actions and wrong actions. It mostly talks about food and drink where we should be concerned with hurting a brother or causing him to "stumble" in his walk. I can understand refraining from having (or offering) a glass of wine in the presence of an alcoholic, for example.

This is not about particular instances like that.

Paul seems to be saying that there are no foods that are inherently unclean and all are good for eating. Is this true? Are the eating restrictions from Leviticus no longer in effect?

Hi Linear,

There are two books in the old law. One is called the Torah and that is the Mosaic Law (the Law of Moses) - containing the essentials of morality and belief as set out in the Ten Commandments etc. The other Jewish source is the Talmud. That is 35 books of civil and religious laws and practices which were complicated and overwhelming to ordinary people. And which the scribes and pharisees used to exploit and baffle the ordinary people. And which Jesus severly criticised and replaced with the simple requirements and guidance of His New Testament. Hence Christians can eat any meat (pork and seafood), which the Telmud forbids.

Christ accepted and blended the Mosaic Law - basically the Ten Commandments with the new testament. Dropping alot of Telmud practises, many of which He criticised for their pettiness.

If you take a look at some of the customs and requirements in the old testament, you'll see where Christ has, by His coming to earth and sacrifice on the cross, given a means for men to be cleansed by their sins by HIM and HIM alone. The requirement for certain customs/sacrifices of the old testament were no longer required, since Christ took their place (and ours).

The order of the old was made new by Christ - He did not come to defy the law, He came to fulfill it. He confirmed it - the word made flesh. Christ came to fulfill the Law of Moses. But the hundreds of little laws and practises in the Telmud were a tremendous burden to ordinary people, to which the scribes and pharisees learned and knew and used to their advantage and to the misery of ordinary people. That is why the scribes and pharisees hated Jesus, who exposed their hypocrisy and endless exploitation!

We need to be clear on which is essential and which is not, namely the Torah is Moses Law (the essential). The Telmud is replaceable, by Christ's NEW TESTAMENT, as expressed in the gospels. Religious Jews of course, adhere faithfully to both the Torah and the Telmud. Not recognising Christ as the Messiah, they are trapped in the past.

In fact, the scribes and pharisees tried to trap Jesus over the Telmud dietry laws, which Jesus answered:

Quote

Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’”
Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”
“Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, S@xual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’”

—Matthew 15:10-20

We know that hygeine practises and clean hands and being careful with certain seafood and meats are necessary to avoid bacteria infections. And in hot conditions/climate, even moreso. But what Jesus is trying to make clear to us, that the spiritual condition of man is what God looks upon as being essential to eternal life.

Would would Jesus have eaten? I'd imagine natural foods/drink that were available to Him. Bread/grain, fish, meats, berries/fruits, vegetables, honey, water, wine (in moderation), goat's milk/cheese? etc.

Certainly, the spiritual condition is essential and will rule our interactions with others in this life and our place in eternity in the next. While this is a good observation it doesn't help with the determination of what foods, if any, are not to be eaten.

I tend to follow the rule that no foods are unclean anymore. I say this because the eating of those foods appears to have been a sin (clams and oysters are an abomination...Lev 11:12) and Paul states that no foods are unclean. So, it seems that the rules changed.

Virgina Ham? Oysters Rockefeller?

This guy says He would not.

While I disagree with him because he makes some large assumptions about what Paul and Jesus are saying, he makes a compelling case. Do you see any holes in his arguments?

Hi Linear, ((( Smiles )))

I haven't looked at the link and I really don't know who this guy is but..
If you have a question regarding that..
I think you should look it up for yourself from a much better source don't you???
And a really good source would be..
Looking into the Festivals of the Hebrew calendar.
For a more fuller meaning of it if that's what you really really need to have.
As the Messiah's life is also mirrored in a very important way in the seven mo'adim, appointed times, or Festivals of the Hebrew calendar..
There's the Spring Feasts that are referring to events that ocurred during Messiah's earthly ministry and the Fall Feasts,
refer to events that are about to happen when He comes the second time.
The holy days was known as a mikrah, which means rehearsal or recital.
Paul tells us that all of the special days have been appointed by God to reveal the Messiah to the world as part of God's great plan for His creation:

" Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, A New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
These are the shadow of the things that were to come , the reality, however, is found in Christ.
-----Colossians 2:16-7

Now of course if one wants to eat scavengers and other unhealthy foods..
Or be a glutton..
Sin is sin and there usually are consequences for ones behavior.
For doing that.
What you reap you shall sow
....Galatians 6:7

And it does say..
My people perish for lack of knowledge
----Hosea 4:6

And this is the basic nature of God's Justice:
"YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW." ...
---Galatians 6:7

But besides the probablity of getting sick from it.
The leading important question of the day is..
Does eating a chocolate chip cookie get one thrown into the lake of fire??

Now that is something thats really important to know.
Don't you think.
Your life could depend on it.
I think you should study up on that.
Plus..
Either you already know it & if you don't you should.
This is akin to wearing down the saints.
Theses games are a waste of time for me.
Were not going io play them over here too.
At least not with me.

Hope you find what your looking for in your search.
Interesting tag..
For a so- called Christian.
Lots of people just don't buy it here.
This says it all to me.

A faith that connot survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets. -- Arthur C. Clarke

What do you think Bex???
Is Linear playing games with us here too???
You don't have to answer that if you don't want too.
Thats my final answer right there.

Try to Stay Well Everybody
Lynn

Hi Lynn,

Let's not 'let a little leaven spoil the whole lump', of true followers of Jesus. (1 Cor 5:6)

Jesus said, "We will know them (His disciples), by their fruit (Matthew 12:33).... (incidentally L.Aq, that doesn't mean food).

"HE" got lost on his way to the Evolution & Creation Forum, (as was broadcasted on the WWW, shout box).

Seems he simply stopped by the Abortion forum and tried messing with and twisting another ambassador for Christ, Bex, with his ridiculous questions.

THEN this Evolutionist Christian, Deacon (?) of the Assemblies of God Church (oxymoron?), (being tempted by "the God of this world who has blinded their (his) minds and hardened their hearts", felt compelled to upset the true followers of Jesus, CHRISTians on The Bible Forum.

Let's (try) to 'turn the other cheek' (7X70). I'm sure he got YOUR VERY EXPLICIT MESSSAGE! (perhaps?)

By the way, I wonder if he knows that Jesus would NEVER eat pork chops? Probably not....seems he hasn't done his homework before coming over here asking such nonsense/ questions.

Now, you have a nice evening, and remember, "I will both lay me down in peace and sleep, for you only Lord, are my safety." Psalm 4:8 .

Take care and have sweet dreams. "Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning."

Thanks for the great Scripture verses!

Blessings, Abishag

Some may prefer the answers found here

http://www.post-gazette.com/food/20031113jesusfood1113fnp2.asp

Interesting article...Thanks!

However, using Jesus' eating habits as a ironclad guide to our own food choices has some problems.

He chose to follow the Old Testament restrictions because He would not be seen as a sinner...He was pure.

He did not have refined sugars and carbs to choose. Since there were no Twinkies or Cokes, we don't know if he would have eaten them.

I'm confused. How does knowing the Festivals help determine what foods we should eat?

This seems to say that we are not judged by the food we eat. So it no matter what you eat it is not a sin?

Isn't the mention of eating bad food in this passage actually a metaphor by Paul to show the effect of letting bad things (sin, bad theology...etc) into your life? I don't think this is actually a restriction or admonishment on what we can eat.

Hence my asking the question.

Depends...is there pork lard in it?

Any ideas on where to start? What restrictions are part of your diet?

Not a game. There are many different ideas about what we should avoid eating. The claim of some is that they have Biblical support for their restrictions. Some say ham and shrimp are ok, according to the Bible. Others say ham and shrimp are to be avoided, according to the Bible.

This is the Bible forum so I thought it was a good place to bring it up.

Why don't you think this is a good tag? Should I not believe my faith can survive a collision with the truth? Don't you think your faith can survive that same collision?

I am sure that you do.

Thank you very very much, CTD!

You are a true disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. You truly do your homework before posting 'nonsense' on this forum. God bless you!

It's pretty obvious that 'he' is trying to upset the Bible Forum and true followers of the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Be sure your sins will find you out," LAq.

Also the comments made regarding Lynn, are uncalled for, as I know that the Lord will use them to bless His people. "His word will not return unto Him void...."

I really don't see any reason to 'respond' to this post at all. It is utterly ridiculous. (which I'm sure 'he' will comment to).

So, fellow disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, let's allow the Holy Spirit to guide our words, as we 'shine for His glory in this dark perverted generation'.

Each of us (His followers) are called to be 'salt' and/or 'light'. Go and tell, as Jesus instructs us! AMEN!

"Let God arise and his enemies be scattered!"

JESUS IS LORD! In Him, Abishag <><

He also said that Christians would be known by their love for one another.

No. I posted the question on this forum before the problem with the Creation vs Evolution forum.

Your Christian love is not very evident in this statement. I don't consider my question "ridiculous". If you have a problem with my statements, perhaps you could address them there instead of trying to make me look bad here.

What have I said to upset you? I asked a real question that sincere Christians disagree about. Your demeaning statements about me and the church I attend are uncalled for.
You have quoted Jesus concerning the fruit we will be known by. Does your post display fruit that shows you to be a disciple of Jesus?

What message was that? Yours is clear...unless I agree with you entirely, I am not to post on the Bible forum. Unless a moderator removes my posting capability, I will post here. If you wish to ignore me, ok.

Yet ham seems to be a favorite Easter dinner for Christians.
Jesus didn't eat pork when He walked the Earth as a man because He was supposed to follow the Law. However, once He fulfilled the Law, weren't the dietary restrictions then removed? When Jesus comes for His 1000-year reign, will he eat shellfish?

???
The article that CTD linked to only provided different points of view concerning what Jesus would require of us in our diet. It gave no guidance one way or the other.
Since you read it and you think it does provide guidance, then answer the following question. Does the article say we should or should not eat pork?

Then don't respond. I didn't insult you, but you feel that it is fine to hurl hateful invectives at me. Why is that?

Hmmmm, ((( Smiles )))



The Elders at your church will be able to give you any extra help you may need with this.
Thats why they are there for you.
I think the question has been answered already here.
And probably many times in the past too and if not.
I'm sure you would be able to find the information out by doing some research of your own on it.
I will not be able to give you all the attention you need at this time.
But your Church Elders can.
I personally would not eat pork or shrimp as they are scavengers.
Bacon either though nitrate wasen't a factor to warn about back then either.
The Bible does have reasons for instructing the Israelites not to eat unclean creatures.
Very good advice.
And good advice till this very day..



You posed the question such as that but why learning more about the holy days of thoses times.
And the meaning of for a better understanding of..
Paul tells us that all of theses special days have been appointed by God to reveal the Messiah to the world as part of God's great plan for His creation.
--- Colossians 2:16-17

They were Jews.
It wasn't talking about the future Easter or Christmas ham.

Plus..
It's your health your body your choice.
What you put into it.
And what you do with it.
If you eat enough bad for your health food.
The consequences of doing so may bring about ill health.

3 John 2:
Beloved, in regard to all things, I pray (for) you to do well and to be in health as your soul does well..

Health is a good thing to have.



Well I guess we will have to ask Jesus that question when the Heavens & the Earth is renewed.
What we will all eat then.
Very important question indeed..

Do ask the Elder's of your Church.
See what the answer is and do come back and tell us.

Hope you find what your looking for in your search.
Answers that you find satisfying for you.
I'm sure you will find them if you search hard enough and long enough.
Until then...
Thats it.
Stay well..
I try too.

Thank you for your reasoned and kind response.
Perhaps it has been answered but my searches turned out to be rather fruitless.

My comment about the church I attend was aimed at Abishag's denigrating remarks about me and my church. I was rather upset.

My elders have been asked that question by me and I was asked the same question by some teens in my Youth Group. I stated what Paul said. Any food is good for nourishment, but the foods marked as unclean may carry more risks. Most important is to not let your personal dietary restrictions or freedoms cause your brother to fail in his personal restrictions or freedoms.


Bacon is pork. Most smoked foods contain nitrates from the smoking process. There are more nitrates in modern smoked foods because it is added unnaturally to speed up the smoking process.

Additionally, most fish are scavengers. The will eat the bodies of the dead fish. Certainly they eat live creatures also but they are not above scavenging.

Most are animals that are more likely to pass on diseases if not cooked completely.

The application of those special days to the life of Christ is fairly obvious to those who study. I just don't see how it is related to determining our dietary restrictions.

I heartily agree. I lean more toward organically grown foods and keep to whole foods as much as possible. A pig can be organically grown just as a chicken can. The question still remains as to whether the organically grown pig is restricted from a believer's diet by Biblical mandate.

You seem to be saying that it is not but you prefer to avoid those foods because you believe that will make you healthier.

You may possibly be right.

As I Posted on another thread, ((( Smiles )))

1 Timothy 4:
But the Spirit expressly says in latter times some will depart from the faith, cleaving to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons.
in lying hypocrisy being seared in (their) own conscience.
forbidding to marry, (saying) to abstain from foods, which God created for partaking/to be recieved with thanksgiving by the believers and
(thoses) knowing the truth.

And the truth is..

The key word here is God created to be recieved or for partaking.
God didn't create scavengers or unclean critters to be recieved.
It's for our own good..
This is the same old flesh bodies they had back then and that we have now.
Scavengers or unclean critters are just not good for us to eat.
I wouldn't suggest it.
Why eat it??
As for John..

Our bodily purity and its health is His concern,
as cited by John, "Beloved, I pray that you may prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers." (3 John 2)

To see what that list is composed of..
You need to look it up for yourself.
Then you can choose what you want to do with it.
No matter what..
It's not good for your health as there is good reason's for that.
Thats all I'm trying to say.
The rest is up to you.
What you do with it.

Try To Stay Well
Expecially in this world the way it is now.
I know I try too..
Lynn