News you won't see in controlled mainstream media.

Well I have to say guys I would need a lot of proof. Personally I think not. Or if he does he certainly must be on vacation somewhere. For those who have no doubt I would love to know how you keep that faith in this world. Here's me always been the peace keeper of the family and frends with everyone suffering the most horrendous 3 years of my life, unlike all the members of my family who are back stabbing, totally unhelpful, unconcerned, self centred and extremely unkind, who are all living a life of good health and luxury. I for one don't understand. Does it mean if wer're more like them we'll have better health? Or do some of us have to wait for the Great Judgement Day. If so I'm in for the greatest time ever. Tracy

I honestly believe that ultimate long term happiness is caused by being the best person you can be. Caring for yourself is a big part of being the best person you can be right now, Tracy. You are going through a lot of pain and I hope it doesn't last too much longer for you. I'll say some prayers for you.

-Colin

Hoi, wait for the replies to come in here . . . I think there are a lot of deeply Christian people on this forum.

I am still working out my own beliefs. Ongoing illness can call into question everything you ever thought you believed in can't it. I do not personally believe in a being who is in control of my destiny and everyone else's. I do believe that there is more in heaven and earth than are dreamt of. There is a life force that binds every living thing. As far as conscious influences on our lives . . . I just don't know. Sometimes I feel that I am being steered toward various things, or that certain things happen for a reason. I can't say more than that.

Maybe when you are feeling a little more settled, you could try learning some meditation techniques, or take up yoga or tai chi. You might be surprised at what you learn just from opening yourself up to the universe and listening.

Linda <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Tried the being the best person, that dosen't seem to work, still get crapped on. I know your trying to help but believe me in the last 3 years I havn't changed being the person I am and still caring for people, but it appears when your the one thats ill others don't seem to be able to handle it and would rather turn their backs. This is an illness you can't fight alone . You need support, so what if you don't get it? Tracy

Sorry Linda but that kind of opening yourself up, meditating crap dosen't help the physical symptoms. It dosen't stop you from wetting yourself or getting pain or sores and stuff, as I've said I don't suffer from depression . How I wish I did, that would be so much easier to deal with. You can't meditate away the physical side of things or nobody would need any other kind of treatment. Tracy

Oooh, I've just seen Colin's post. That's excellent. Suffering is what forces us to grow as human beings. No one enjoys it of course, and most everyone tries to avoid it because it is painful. Some people go to great lengths to avoid it. However, it is those who embrace it and accept it as a necessary part of life, who are able to learn and grow and become better human beings. The sorts of people you mentioned who are not pleasant but have health and wealth, are lacking that depth of character and spiritual wisdom that come through overcoming hardship.

In so many words, then, yes -- when you come through this you will be stronger for it, and you will have learned a lot. Sometimes it can be a real trial by fire. What matters is not what happens to us, but what we make of it.

Linda.

I wasn't suggesting your problems would go away through meditation Tracy. That's been discussed on another thread. I can't do my tai chi either because of the state I am in. However, I am a very spiritual person and I am looking forward to pursuing that aspect of life again when I feel able. I am sure you will get there too. Don't give up looking for answers.

Linda.

Well I'd be interested to have this explained I've had 2 horrendous and violent marriages, 4 miscarriages and a ruptured ectopic and cervical cancer. Ive had to bring up 3 children by myself, paid off ex husbands debts to keep him out of prison, been to college for 5 years while working with disruptive and autistic children full time at the same time. I think actually I was an incredibly strong person as I did all of this by myself. So what I'm wondering is how many more years do I have to suffer to get that person back. Believe me I've never been weak minded. I use to swim 50 lengths before work, do all the cleaning, sort out all the kids problems. I can't see how this illness could make me any stronger what its done as Dawn said brought us strong people to our knees. Tracy

i dont think we should suffer like this, i have been in hell on this earth in front of my kids, thats not good.
i feel very bitter that it was me who suffered in my family, not someone else,iam not a better person for it,but very frightened.

why do people have such strong negative beliefs.

And so many negative responses.

with this illness you don't even have the luxury of spirituality. I felt very spiritual 2 days ago, I thought all about tracy and her problems with her son, the next day sthg hit me and I'm a complete zombie now and don't care about anyone. Honestly, I would exchange this illness for any other that didn't mess up as much with the mind. My sister is having gynecological problems, and there is some very loose suspicion that there might be cancer involved with her problems, and I know now how she's gonna complain about how her life sucks, yeah well maybe it does and i'm being unfair but I'd take it any time. At least you remain human and yourself throughout the battle.

Hey Tracy,

Just thought I'd chime in on your question/statement since I've been stepped on most of my life as well. My friend/business partner Laura has been continually amazed at how many people have abused their relationships with me since she's known me.

My belief in God does not stem from an emotional need—as much of my family incorrectly believes—it stems from researching many aspects of truth and finding that the Bible is amazingly reliable and has and does foretell the future.

With all this in mind, I have learned from the Bible and through experience that "it rains on the just and the wicked", in other words, we all feel the effects of evil in the world, even if we're not evil ourselves.

Many on this forum, including you and myself, have lost a great deal of our lives because of someone who poisoned us (I strongly believe that this was intentional on the ADA level but ignorance—yet horrible negligence—on the dentist level.). This is amazingly unfair, but the world is set up this way to teach us that we are not islands unto ourselves. We need to be passionate about the deeds of ourselves as well as those of others to prevent these types of crimes against humanity (you and I) from happening. This was one of the constant warnings of the forefathers. They knew because they lived through unjust suffering as well.

Unfortunately, due to collective apathy, these evil people are in power and are making decisions that make us suffer and die while they profit unimaginably.

Nevertheless, there is a day coming when there will be a judgment. This not only means that evil is judged and punished without end (What would you do with someone who intentionally poisons millions of people and causes the type of suffering you are going through?) but it also means that those who have "held on to their testimony" and kept themselves from participating in this evil will receive an unending peace and love that will make all of the suffering seem small.


"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God."

—Romans 8:18-19


"For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

—2 Corinthians 4:17-18


As hard as it may be to imagine, our afflictions in this life are small compared to the things that await us on the other side. This not intended to belittle anyone's suffering at all. It's just a device—a comparison—to demonstrate how worthwhile suffering is in comparison to how great the life ahead is.

We also have to remember that this suffering is referred to as "fire" in the bible.


"And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."

—Zechariah 13:9


We also have to remember that this suffering is as a fire that purifies gold. The fire burns away all of the perishable parts of us and leaves only the best.

I have seen this in my own life already as the severe suffering that I endured in my younger days taught me how selfish I am. The suffering enabled me to be a person who puts in the time managing and posting on this forum with little or no benefit to myself. The credit for this is not mine. The credit goes to God who was the mirror that enabled me to see myself—as painful as that was—and empowered me to become more pure through suffering. Childbirth is designed as a great symbol of this kind of pain that ends in such joy that the pain is soon forgotten.

I have heard many stories of people who have had near-death experiences. Some of them experienced an hellish experience that "scared them straight". Others have experienced a joy and peace and love that inspired them to be the best that they could be for the rest of their lives.

We are being watched, every moment of every day. The world is indeed a stage and when we exit, let us make sure that we have no shame or whatever we do have, we allow Christ to remove from us so that we all may experience this promise from a God who is able to deliver.

And when you stand on the right side of the gulf staring into the faces of those who tormented you, there will be a great peace in you knowing that you will never suffer again, and that those who deliberately caused it will pay.


"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

—Luke 16:19-31

I read this too quickly at first -- thought Russ was saying that we'll have worse afflictions in the afterlife. Until I read the rest of the paragraph and saw what he was really saying. oops! lol!

Oh well, I suppose some folks might not be going Upstairs To The Non-Smoking Section of the Eternal Restaurant -- God might seat them in the Smoking Section down below. And for them, well -- I don't like to consider what eternal life would be like in Hell.

Anyway, I think I'm gonna sit right here next to Russ for a bit 'cause I think his response was wonderfully reassuring. Thanks Russ!

What happens to you if your a good person then but dont believe and your a wicked person but do? Tracy

I think it's unhelpful to compare our degree of suffering to others' and become embittered.

At first, when I came off my antidepressant and was learning how deep the damage was that it did to me, I was pretty upset about how much normality I'd lost. Over 14 months later, much of that damage is still with me. I know others who have suffered worse from the meds they were on.

Some of them are still full of rage and are railing against the system and the people who did this to them. They are stuck.

Some others accept what has happened to them and move on. Acceptance doesn't mean that you are free of sorrow or pain. But if you stay stuck in the anger and resentment, however justified it may be, you cannot heal.

I could easily make a long list of the horrible things that have happened to me that weren't my fault, especially during the past 3 years. I choose not to focus on that, and accept it as part of life as best I can. (Try, for example, holding a marriage together when you do not feel any emotions due to depression, and have ongoing sexual dysfunction due to a drug you stopped taking over a year ago.) What I do try to focus on is the positives, and they can be found.

With every step I've taken in trying to treat my depression, and so far none of them have lifted it, I have learned important things.

I have been able to get my husband to understand something about what is happening to me, and I know he is waiting for me to get better.

I now eat a wonderful nutritious diet and take good supplements. I know that these will serve me well the rest of my life. What's more, I can use what I have learned to help others, and I know how to give my daughter the best health too.

I am much more aware of some fundamental truths. I used to be someone who blindly trusted what the doctor said and took what he prescribed for me.

Even though I am emotionally numb, I also am so much more alive than I ever was. I have had such a profound experience. How can anyone know the heights of joy if they haven't experienced the depths of despair. I have LIVED.

And it's only going to get better from here.

I know that this is my own very individual experience. But I thought I'd share it. I do still look around sometimes, see people who have never been damaged by drugs, never had depression, who have enough money that they don't have to worry about how to pay their bills. And yes I'm envious sometimes. But we're all on our different paths. Like I said, if a person hasn't gone through much suffering, they will not have made much progress on that path.

When everything seems so awful, of course it's easy to say why is this happening, I can't see what I'm getting out of it. Maybe you can't see it now. But you will when it's over, I am sure. Maybe you will need to move down your own path a little further, and experience or learn a few more things, before that becomes clear. Sometimes we can't know what lies directly ahead until it presents itself.

When the depression began, I could never have imagined the twists and turns that path would take me on. How in the world did I end up here, LOL. But it's so good. I know I have changed. I can't wait to find out about the person I have become, once I am well.

Linda.

"human kindness overflowing, I think it's gonna rain today "
Randy Newman
Wish I 'da wrote that song. This here is the point,
don't expect everbody to get this reply, just somethin I'm thinkin about at present,plus this weather, sombre times, yet heartfull times.
Hate to mention, I'm seein some chemtrails hereabouts, could explain this greshelpy we call sky for the last month.
Sorry my on-topical skills ain't quite right.

Tracy, I believe God exists. My faith dwindles because of my suffering, but I have no real doubt that He does exist. I have also been witness to a supernatural miracle overseas amongst thousands of other people. One that was undeniable, shocking and enough to cause a person to be close to passing out. Brilliant. The only time in my life!

That is easy for me to say that because I saw it I know. I would wish for everybody to witness what I did. But I believe in the bible as a literal history book and a literal future.

I also believe that suffering has meaning and is not just bad luck. I cannot comment on how a person will be judged, that is God's business. And this kind of toxicity is diabolical and many times all but destroyed my faith. But I do know one thing, He understands it completely, more than we do, intimately. What it does to us.

I do not think any suffering is in vain! I also believe that He will deliver, but in His time and HIs way. I think we live in strange times and believe these times maybe what is referred to as the "end times'. Not the end of the world, but a winding up/winding down of an era best left behind.

These are my beliefs, I do not expect other people to agree with me. Just wanted to share that with you Tracy.

There is no proof of anything in life. But if you question the very existence of your god(s) in times of strife and pain, one must ask the same question of all who suffer, the world over. When you're feeling better (and I believe that you will), will you still question Their existence?

You ask for proof in the divine? I believe the proof is in the pudding. As feasible as theories such as the Big Bang may sound (and I’m inclined to believe them for lack of any superior, alternative explanations), they do not explain what happened before that time, or before the time before that; ad infinitum. Where did matter come from to even initiate any of it? Why does anything exist at all?

Furthermore, why is everything in nature possessed of duality? Whatever divine entities have spawned existence, surely they must mirror Mother Nature, for all things come from nature. I believe Mother Nature mirrors our very biology and the biology of (nearly) all life: the necessity of both a male and a female. Life requires both of these, so too must the universe. For these reasons, and a host of countless others, I have long ago accepted a pagan religion (which I shall not elaborate on here), and believe in the Goddess and the Horned God. I simply cannot accept the notion of a lone individual god, most especially one that has selfishly taken on the guise of a male. Males were the dominant sex in earlier centuries and as such no female deity would have been accepted by the mass in those days. I therefore see the idea of a single male god as the mere archaic conjurations of our predecessors.

I don’t know if any of that makes sense, and I’m not trying to sell you into anything. Believe what you will. True, some suffer more than others in this world, but we are all of us subject to death and disease, sooner or later. Everything in nature eventually dies, is recycled and, in some new form, is reborn again. Take comfort in the fact that none of us suffer alone. We humans endure pain, all things in nature endure a pain of sorts (stars explode, the ozone layer is depleting, plants wither and die, etc.), and so too must our god(s) endure a pain of their own. I know it’s small consolation at a time like this but, that’s the cycle of life.

When you ask "What happens to you", I'm going to assume that you're asking if someone is saved or not. I hope I have that right.

The first and most wonderful thing about salvation is that it is easy to attain. People say it's a gift, and although this is true, it's not without conditions. It would more accurately be described as an agreement. It's an agreements that is driven by the passion of perfect, eternal love. Ultimately, salvation is our eternal bond with God, and it's modeled in this life by marriage.

Marriage is an agreement that both parties enter into voluntarily. When you enter this agreement, you are given great privileges that are not available to those who do not enter this agreement—you get special treatment. Of course, you are expected to give your spouse special treatment as well.

In the Earthly model, marriage is consummated by a physical bond that results in the presence of blood one time. Our marriage to God was consummated by the presence of blood one time—on the cross. It is what is called a blood covenant; blood being the symbol of life.

God's promise to us in this eternal covenant of love was demonstrated by the only means we can currently understand—suffering—and this convent of love provides promises to us that include eternal life with peace and rest and to always to be in the presence of our beloved Spouse. During this life, this covenant provides the promise of help and guidance, plus the promise that—although we may very well experience suffering—it will never be more than we are equipped to endure.

King David understood this in the famous psalm that said:

"He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."

—Psalms 23:3-4

The two important things to point out here is that David is relying on God to restore his soul. How can a soul be restored unless it is first exhausted. David knew that God would not keep David from hard work or even exhaustion in this life, but he knew that God would restore his soul.

The other thing is that David said that he would walk through the valley of the shadow of death. He knew that God did not promise to keep us from the valley of the shadow of death—trouble, but that God would comfort us through it if we were in covenant with Him.

So, this is salvation.

Now, what is a good person. This can mean many things depending on the context in which it's used, but for the purposes of this context—that is—in God's eyes, a good person is one who has entered into a covenant with Him. Of course, you can't enter into a covenant with someone who you don't believe exists, so this requires that you are a "believer".

Now, if you truly believe in God, then you will want to become a better person from the bottom of your heart (soul—emotions, passion, drive). This faith in you will be evident in that you will strive to become a better person because you want to please your spouse. It's only natural.

If someone is not a believer, they can certainly do good works on the Earth, but it is not for God. These good works could be driven by the good feelings they receive when they do good, or they may be driven by the love they have for someone else, which ultimately makes them feel good. There are other reasons as well, but you will find that, in most cases, this drive to do good in a non-believer is a result of the emotional reward that is received as a result of doing good. This is a type of self-love that is referred to in the Bible as being "soulish", or from the soul (center of emotions) rather than the spirit (source of intellect, will, creativity). This is not to degrade their love, for we all have experienced soulish love before we lean about spiritual love. It's simply part of the growing-up process.

Now we have to understand that, although this good feeling is by God's design and is a balancing mechanism to help us enjoy life before reaching spiritual maturity, it does not mean that this person has entered a covenant with God. This covenant has to be entered by someone who understands what they are doing. It is an act of the will which is a act of your spirit or intellect.

So, with this background, we can answer the question:

"What happens to you if your a good person then but dont believe and your a wicked person but do?"

The question contains a mutually exclusive circumstance.

A person who believes is a good person, at least in God's eyes. A person who believes will not do evil intentionally. Now, if they lose their temper or get into some other trouble that they later regret, then all they have to do is stop, which is called repentance. We should then confess our sins to Him in prayer (whether or not we confess them to other people is up to us) just as you would when you confess a wrongdoing to a loved one ("Yes I did it") and tell them that you will try not to do it again ("and I'm sorry").

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

—1 John 1:9

Notice that it does not say "a little bit of unrighteousness" it says "all unrighteousness". God sees you as perfect once again.

There are so many misconceptions spread about God and Christ that it boggles the mind. This is one reason why we should to study scripture for ourselves and not just rely on the teachings of others.

One misconception is that God is "up there keeping track" of every wrong that we do. He just loves pointing that parenting finger at us and bringing us to shame.

Not true.

"...As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die..."

—Ezekiel 33:11

God is our advocate, and when you believe and understand that, you can more easily understand how good your relationship is with Him regardless of how you feel. In fact, you relationship with God is modeled in this life as your relationship with your children. You are their advocate. You are on their side. You want reconciliation and have forgiveness toward them.

How often have you, as a child, felt that your relationship with your parents was over, gone and done; that they would never love you again and you had been utterly rejected. Did this mean that they really felt that way. Of course not (hopefully). This is why we should not rely on our emotional feelings to determine if our relationship with God is good or not. Our feelings are fallible. They change daily, sometimes from moment to moment. The are not the gauge we should use to measure our relationship with God, rather, they are the reward that we experience when we do good in life and believe that we are pleasing to our Spouse.

Now, what about a person who is a good person but does not believe.

The Bible is very clear about this. It does not matter how good we try to be or how good our works are in this life. If we refuse to covenant ourselves with the designer and creator of the universe, how can we be pleasing to him. This is like saying, "I just want to be friends" to your spouse, or saying, "I'd like to go out and fool around for a while and maybe I'll be back".

People learn about what they care about. If you care about sports, you'll know who the MVP is or who won the last game. If you care about health, you'll read whatever you can get your hands on to learn more. We generally know little about the things we don't care about.

The bottom line for those who have had all opportunity to learn about Christ but still do not believe is that they don't care enough to learn, and this apathy is disgusting to God just as it would be to you if you raised and cared for a child who eventually left home with no sense of appreciation or love for all that you had done:

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

—Revelation 3:15-16

Lukewarm apathy is the sure way to ruin any relationship. Passion, on the other hand, is necessary to accomplish any great thing.

Finally, I believe that those who have not had a chance to know Christ may have an opportunity in the millennium, although I have not studied this subject enough to be sure. There is a growing consensus among the Bible scholars that I respect that this is the case. This does not mean that those who have had the opportunity in this life and have rejected Christ will get a second chance. We all have one chance, but chance is a poor choice of words. It really should be spoken this way: "We all have about 70 years of opportunity".

The bottom line is this. There is no reason that anyone would want to reject a relationship with God if they truly understand what it means. If they study this covenant (the Bible) and see the truth and evidence behind it (don't listen to mainstream media today as it slanders the Bible at every turn; the lies are outrageous, just as with the amalgam issue) and even listen to the testimonies of others who have experienced this relationship with God, why would anyone wait.

If a person is sick, mercury poisoned, depressed, or otherwise debilitated, God understands this completely. He does not forget any suffering that you endure and does not hold you to any unreasonably high standards. He knows that you are unable to function as you would like. He is your advocate. He wants you to succeed. He wants you to flourish, and as any good parent, he may prune you once an a while to make sure you do. He also loves you and wants an eternal relationship with you with a passion that few really take time to think about.

In fact, when you really think about it; when you really understand what His letter to you (the Bible) says, then you will realize that He would rather suffer and die than live without you.

I think I would have been stone cold dead way long ago if I didn't have Jesus to carry me through.

Even on days when I have felt worse than I have ever felt from the mercury posioning, I knew he was near and would see me through this. He's my strength and light to keep going.

As far as being there for everyone though, I think sometimes it's probably more important to just take care of yourself. The others will learn to manage for themselves when they have to. Maybe it's time.

This thread is dumb, there is no way to proof gods existance.
Just pick whichever belief makes you more comfortable

Dont know who you are anonymous cos unfortunately all the people with nothing intelligent to say or a valid comment to make come on as anonymous. Shame people who come on this forum regularly wouldn t call any thread dumb it is a way of us expressing ourselves and listening to others comments and beliefs the threads not dumb but you are Tracy

WOW, Russ really explained it well. I can relate to alot of things that you said Tracy about people not understanding and not being supportive. A friend of mine told me a few years ago when I was very down that I needed to stop trying to "fix" things by myself and let God take control.

You sound like you could use some time for yourself. Its not being selfish, it is just necessary to "refill" your cup from time to time and when you are ill it takes SO much more effort to do everything.

I know that I'm not easy to be around when things have gotten out of balance, but I also know that it isn't me-not the way I want to be-its the toxins. I often pray that I can get better so that I can be the person I need to be.

Many people talk about being glad that they had cancer or some difficulty saying that it made them a better person or that they learned from that experience(or course, they don't say that while they are in the mist of the difficulty). I used to feel bad that I did not feel "glad" that I have had to deal with hg poisoning, but I do see that trials do keep you focused on what are the important things in life.

Wow is right, thanks so much for that Russ.

Sandi
xoxo

I would like to believe that were not just an extraterrestrial science project for some advance alien culture, the key word is FAITH ,we do not have to be religious to have it ,but without it ,you have no path to follow.

There are plenty of paths in life to follow, with or without the crutch of religion. Religion is but one path of many.

I woke up thinking about this thread and am grateful to have an opportunity to share my thoughts as well.

Right now I am going to through a lot to say the least. One of which is my oldest stepson who has had the opportunity to be in church where the simple truth of God is taught, and who is rejecting him, one foot in the world and one foot in the church. He mainly attends for social reasons (he's 16).

I have often thought what is the most convincing way to explain what having the Lord in one's life is. And, it really comes down to a personal experience and the Word.

One thing that is so hard is people's expectations of God. God simply said there is only one way to Him and that's through the Lord Jesus. He gave us a free will. Many are looking for a supernatural experience of God knocking them over the head with proof and the proof is everywhere you look, trees, flowers, people, air, animals, etc. What more do you need?

Another expectation is that if one loves or knows God they will be perfect, whch is actually the farthest from the truth and the very reason we need Him. We "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23.) The only way to reconcile our sins is accept the gift of salvation through the acceptance of Jesus in our heart.

The other expectation is that life will be harder, less fun and rigid. when it's exactly the opposite if you follow the Bible and not religion. When you ask the Lord into your heart peace comes, things are easier because now you don't have to carry the weight of it all, your life and the issues in your life.

The Word helps you work out why things are the way they are in your life, whether they are self-inflicted or brought on by others.

As Russ states, one needs to study it out for themselves, however, all to quickly many just believe the lies out there that God or religion haters propigate and then lose out on the one thing that can bring them peace, answers, just to name a few.

God does not expect us to be perfect, however, as Russ said it is an agreement, we promise to do our best, and when we mess up, we change with God's help, not in our own strength.

The biggest lesson I have learned in my 12 years as a christian is to give it over to the Lord and stop carrying the care. Do my best to do all I can in the natural and then let God do the supernatural.

I truly believe he led me to this website. Scripture says, "my people perish for the lack of knowledge." This just doesn't apply to your salvation, it also applies to natural things, our bodies. I know that if I hadn't prayed for help, I would have been to 5 more doctors, still with the wrong answer. By praying I have avoided a lot of pitfalls I see people falling into even with knowledge, AND in my own stupidity, when I did not stop and pray, I fell into the same things myself -- free will, to do anything I want, however, is the anything I want giving me everything I want?

I had to ask myself this 12 years ago, is doing it "my way" bringing me the life of happiness and peace I've always wanted? And now, with dealing wth this, is this what I signed up for? The big difference is that I have direction, I have peace, I know the Lord won't let me down if I have faith to believe that He is there and He does want the best for me.

Gabriella

I can understand where your all coming from and I am so happy for all those who feel peace and happiness. I suppose some of us just can't. I attended church every Sunday until about 5 years ago. I was even baptised a few years ago. But still I question. People say the lord never gives you more than you can endure. Then why do so many people commit suicide, cos they can't endure any more. Also I still find it hard to believe the meek shall inherit the Earth and the more you suffer, you will have a great life when you die? Sorry I want my life now, not just for me but also my family. If God, if he exists, is in control then why like Bex said to me this morning, evil seems to be taking over the whole world. I fully agree with her, it is happening, the world is changing for the worst every day. I would love to believe again and gain strength to fight because God is our salvation, but sorry I can't. If someone could give me some proof I would be happy to listen, but my bet is none of you have anything. People cling to things for comfort when things go wrong and it's only my opinion of course, but I've known people who have gone back to church just so they get to heaven. I am going to spend some time reading the bible again cos I need to try to understand, but at the moment it just seems people need a crutch and think God is the answer. I hope with all my heart I'm wrong, but if he does exist, he surely shoud be doing something to stop evil things from happening. In my dad's word you come into this world with nothing and you leave it with nothing and when your dead, your dead and there is nothing else. I'd love someone to prove me wrong, truly because I'd like to believe I'll see my dead family again, but somehow it just don't ring true. Tracy

People who suffer the most, people in 3rd world countries, commit the least amount of suicide. Statistically. It's in the more privelaged nations where suicide rates are highest. They're actually suffering less, proportially, but their tolerance to withstand pain is dramatically lower as a result of living in gentler surroundings.

I don't think the world is changing for the worst. Slavery, torture, genocide, etc., still exist in modern times, but in earlier centuries these things were the order of the day. It was accepted in every culture as merely a fact of life. Today these things are becoming less and less accepted. It's a dark world we dwell in but I believe given the choice to live now or 400 years ago, you'd surrender your left hand to have the former over the latter.

I think a lot of your dilemma is about a change in perspective. It's easier said than done but one really must recognize that there are people in far worse situations than ourself.

And if you want your gods to convince you of anything, you have to convince Them in return. We are Their mirror image. Gods need followers as much as followers need gods.

Keep your chin up, and don't forget to keep a bird's-eye-view over your situation.

Blessed be.

Hi Tracy, people always say "prove it", but what exactly do they want? What kind of proof? If one searches for proofs of God's existance, it is blatantly all around us. A person can of course blind themselves to that, but that is their decision.

In the bible it states that man is without excuse.. the evidence is all around us. One would have to shut it out in order not to see it. God has given us every means to believe in Him. Not just in nature alone with all things being in balance (if you do not count the way mankind has mucked things). There is a history full of supernatural events, many things that indicate this is not all there is. Look things up on the net, and check them out or find books on the subject. Whether they are scientifially verified etc. Yes there are fakes, always will be, but there are ones that cannot be explained even by science.

That is left then for our disernment, what we make out of it.

But would this be enough? For those that believe, no explanation is necessary, for those that don't? No explanation is possible.

I could send you sites on on the miraculous (the same ones in books), but again it comes down to what you really want to believe. Certainly there are scientificly verified accounts out there. One would have to search and read for themselves. They are there.

There are arguments on both sides of the fence, have been for many years and top scientists are also on either side. They too argue amongst themselves to this day. If God is real Tracy (and I believe He most definitely is), the events in the bible history and future should prove themselves. For us creationists? They most certainly do and have.

I cannot force to take onboard my beliefs, as an evolutionist cannot force you either. There are top scientistists on both sides of the fence to this day (creation and evolution).

If you look them up and look at the debates of both, yu may decide in yourself which account makes sense and adds up with what we see today. An evolutionist may look at something and marvel "isn't it amazing what evolution has produced" and a creationist mightl say "Isn't it amazing what God has created".

So even they cannot agree.
Tracy, with all our human frailties and arguments, nobody here can really offer you the proof you are searching for. If you really want proof of God, then perhaps you ought to talk to Him? If there is nothing there as you suspect there isnt? No harm can be done right? You're just talking to air or talking to yourself.

But if there is something or "someone"? Need I say more?

Well, one day I was taking photos in the yard and when I downloaded them onto the computer I had this

<img src="http://herballure.com/ubbthreads/attach/240515-DSC00037a.jpg">
Angel!!!

I am pretty sure that is one of the angels that looks out for us. Years and years ago even, he saved my life on the road. I almost got side swiped by a semi while I was driving that old dodge caravan there in that photo... it was like an invisible big strong hand took the steering wheel of that car and guided me, very quickly away from that 18 wheeler... which I think missed me by about 2 and a half inches at most.

Not kidding. Other stories about that angel... some other time.

Tracy, I think it's important to question from time to time any beliefs that you have. I think this is how we grow as people. And occasionally we may find that we have to adjust our beliefs due to new wisdom we have gained. Many people avoid doing this because it takes them out of their comfort zone.

I think people have been trying to make sense of the world, and things that happen to us, as long as we have existed. It's comforting to think that if we see injustices happening, well at least the good will be sent to heaven and the bad will be sent to hell. It's actually the philosophy that the church used in the middle ages to keep the toiling peasants content with their hard lives, LOL. Because there's a reward waiting. Or there's the idea of karma, that if you do evil you may not be punished in this life, but you will be in the next. I personally do not subscribe to these things. Like I said I believe we are all on individual paths, and it's up to us to make the most of what comes our way. I think that if we are good people at heart, we will touch the lives of others in a positive way, and that is one of the most important legacies we can leave.

You are asking the classic question: if a god exists, why is there so much unfairness and suffering in the world. My belief is that, things just ARE. Why did my husband's mother die when he was 6? It created harship for many years. I can't see that many positive things came out of it. It just happened, that's all. Like I said, what matters is how we deal with what comes our way, and how we can use it to learn to grow.

I hope you don't think this sounds patronising Tracy, but have you thought about finding a counsellor? It might help to have someone to talk to about all the things that have been happening to you lately.

Best wishes,
Linda.

Quote - "It's comforting to think that if we see injustices happening, well at least the good will be sent to heaven and the bad will be sent to hell. It's actually the philosophy that the church used in the middle ages to keep the toiling peasants content with their hard lives, LOL. Because there's a reward waiting. Or there's the idea of karma, that if you do evil you may not be punished in this life, but you will be in the next."

Correction. The bible goes back over 2000 years to the time of Christ, this is not a "middle age" hope of the peasants to make their lives more meaningful, it is the hope of all Christians that believe on Christ and His words which have lasted throughout the ages. If you scrub biblical history, you will also have to scrub greek and egyptian history along with it. because the biblical history has much stronger standing and evidence among scholars than the other two histories. Go check with any open minded expert in world history.

yes Linda you are right it does sound patronising, and I won't even bother saying anything else because really that question dose'nt even warrent a reply Tracy

Whoa, hold on for a minute now, Tracy. Linda wasn't being offensive, she was offering suggestions for improvement. There's certainly nothing wrong with seeking a therapist, and if her intentions were specifically meant to berate you she wouldn't have spent her entire post writing to try and offer up encouragement in the first place.

It looks like everyone in this thread so far is on your side <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In the end we all resort to our own methods of help. Some here use this very discussion board for suppot, others their religion (I know I rely on upon my practice of witchcraft for support in life all the time), and still others seek therapy. None of these methods should be thought of as "lesser" or embarassing or even insulting if someone proposes it as a suggestion.

Blessed be, Tracy. May the Goddess go with you through your path in life.

i'd like to write here more often but find i cannot for uknown reasons something to do with mercury confusion.

i've watched with interest at people feelling comforted by people here on the forum, and it confuses me, because before being hg poisoned something like that would have helped me as well, now not in person or in letters does anything make me feel anything or a connection to others so i just wanted to say if u get that response within yourself your doing well. i feel alone regardless of being alone or with people/family/anyone. i'm certain if i had a wife this would be the case as well, although my relationship would be a fearful clinging "PLEASE don't leave me" sort of deal.

Havn't got a b*****y clue what your talking about. I think personally suggesting I see a counsellor is very patronising as I use to be one, before this illness struck. You people just don't seem to be getting It, talking about being poisened and physically ill won't help. Christ if it did there would be no ill people on this forum. You both are talking crap. I'm sorry but I'm not the only one who thinks so. I've already received two posts from people who don't want to use the forum any more , because they are sick and tired of being advised such crap. Having been a counsellor, I would know if seeing one would help me or not. It would not . Are they going to take away the poison and make me better. NO. It seems to me Linda that you cannot be suffering as some of us are or you would know that kind of therapy is useless . I know I am I have been tested positive. Advice is always welcome, but seeing a counsellor is a joke.
And PWCCA Iv'e never been under the impression that people come on here JUST to discuss their religion. I started this thread cos I was interested in others beliefs. There are a lot of people on this forum who believe in God, and some who don't. Thats fine, but I don't think thats what it was intended for. I'm beginning to understand now why I got posts in the last two days, from people who have been using this forum for along time, saying they don't want to use it any more. As some of them said, suggesting to someone to see a therapist, seems to imply we need pyschological help. We do not. WE ARE ILL. I would love to know what your physical symptoms are Linda, if your just depressed, that's the sort of advice I would expect. Many of us have been falsely driven down the pyschological path, thats why we get so fed up with this kind of crap. Congratulations. This forum has now lost some lovely, incredibly ill people. Tracy

benza I didn't no you had put on a reply. None of that was aimed at you. Best wishes Tracy

I understand, Tracy. I didn't mean to imply that that's the reason why people were here. I was only mentioning it as a means of consoling. I'm sorry you're upset and hope your situation improves, but I don't think Linda was saying anything untoward. If they're not suitable or practical suggestions for you, we cannot blame her for trying.

As for religion in this forum, I see nothing wrong with that. For the Christians here, their religion is as much a part of their daily life as anything else, such as eating or sleeping -- so to is it with my pagain beliefs and reverence for the Gods whose path I follow; I cannot separate my beliefs from the rest of my lifestyle.

Blessed be.

PWCCA, don't misunderstand me, the reason I started this thread is because I am interested in people's different religions and beliefs. I myself have had experiences happen that are not explainble. For instance, before my daughter's first birthday,we went on holiday and stayed in a very old house. We were very tired from the journey and wanted to take a nap. When we all entered the main bedroom, my daughter pointed to the celing and said, "Poor baby ghost is crying" she could only say a few words, so obviously we were amazed. She often says she can see people and she is a very stable child. When we moved to the Midlands from Brighton. I begged for an old neighbour from this area to come and visit me. She was like a mum to me and had recently died. I was missing her very much. In the middle of that night I came downstairs to make a cup of tea and while I was getting the tea bags , the kettle switched on by itself. It was'nt even switched on at the plug. I've had many more experiences like that. My family are descendants of Romany gypsies. I have been told that I have an abiltiy to contact the dead and I could be trained to learn how to do this. Therefore I truly believe there is more to this world than any of us know. I, as I said started this thread because I am interested In people's beliefs and I have a very open mind. What some people are worried about and fed up with is people coming on and suggesting we have a need for physchlogical help. It just makes you think they can't possibly understand or have he same illness as us. As far as I know and I'm very willing to be proved wrong.. Linda hasn't mentioned any other symptoms but depression I and others know this does not ring true with Mercury poisoning. Nobody on here takes offence at advice, but I think some of us believe that should be from other Mercury sufferers. I'm only quoting what others have said. But yes I believe it too. Only because I feel with this illness you can't truly understand it unless you are a sufferer yourself. I would be really interested to hear about the witchcraft stuff. I am intrigued. Best wishes Tracy.

Just like everything else that is genuinely true, there is a very simple answer to the issue of why evil/suffering exist if a merciful, loving God exists. This may be difficult for some of you to accept, but the plain truth of the matter is that evil/suffering exists because it MUST exist. The universe is one of dualities (things exist and can be perceived by our minds because of comparisons)- there is no such thing as warm if the concept of cool does not also co-exist, and there is no such thing as good if evil were not to exist. If everything were good you wouldn't call it good, and you certainly wouldn't appreciate it - you'd have no reason to! There would nothing to compare it to. If there were no evil/suffering, you could NOT appreciate/perceive good - it's that simple. And I have had enough with people (including priests and so-called Bible scholars) say things like "God doesn't do evil, man does." THIS IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE, AND IT GOES AGAINST WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. LOOK THE FOLLOWING VERSE UP AND KNOW THE TRUTH. Evil / suffering is absolutely essential for God's plan, and in Isaiah Chapter 47 Verse 11 God clearly states that HE creates both good AND EVIL. Some versions of the good book say things like "God causes both the good and bad winds to blow" or whatever, but the point is the same. God does create evil because it is essential that he do so for his plans to become reality. Lastly, EVERYBODY thinks they have suffered more than everybody else because they themselves experienced it. TRUST ME - there is ALWAYS someone who has things worse than you. Suffering and enduring evil have a PURPOSE. Also, that whole "God only gives us what we can bear" thing, tell me, where does God say anything even REMOTELY like that in the Bible?

One more thing - this nonsense about how "no one can prove God...." Give me a break! There is ample scientific evidence which very strongly supports creation of the universe - do the research. Do you realize that all of these "facts" concerning macro and cosmic evolution are built on total ASSUMPTIONS which are NOT proven. Radiocarbon dating, for instance, is based on a pure ASSUMPTION which has NOT been scientifically proven! Also, macro and cosmic evolution go against previously established scientific laws such as the Law of Biogenesis and those of thermodynamics. The real kicker is when atheists try to convince us that the universe has always been, was not created and therefore needed no creator - um, hello, put the car in park, boy....why then do radioactive elements currently exist? These elements BREAK DOWN and form other entities after long enough periods of time - if the universe always existed there would be no such thing as uranium, for example, because it would be lead.

And if you guys think I know a lot about the Bible, just wait until I start giving y'all some of my insights on mercury! Things are about to get very exciting around here I assure you.

Signed,

Anonymous

You know what, you might see ghosts, have weird experiences, know there is a 'presence' around, whatever, I know I have experienced those things, my daughter also, we have even experienced them together so these things are defintely not just my imagination, that would be simple but unfortunately it's not the case. However, when it comes to spirits of the dead you probably do no not want to actually communicate or associate yourself with them. They are what is known as 'unclean' spirits and can make your situation much worse, including your health and sanity. I realize that they are not all intrinsically 'evil', but they are far from holy also.

Breaking a generational bloodline with a spiritual hold on it can be difficult, my mom was (lightly) involved in the occult when I was younger, my family a long line of very superstitious catholics with all sorts of odd east european beliefs, I sort of went through that when I gave my life to Jesus as an adult. It took a good few years to finally come to a place of peace where they no longer tried to assert themselves, may be one of the major reasons we have some mighty angels round here.

You may have a familiar spirit that has been in your family for years which is why someone would tell you you have the ability to contact the dead. Personally I think everyone has that ability if they so desire but I wouldn't go there. Binding yourself to spirits on that level will never give you the peace and wholeness that God has prepared for you if only you reach out to claim it.

I would be interested in hearin about the wiccan stuff too. Not that I enjoy that, I actually abhore the idea of it but I have never spoken to a wiccan personally, have only read about it. I obviously have my opinions of that already, and what the Lord has shown me about it probably because of associations in my extended family on that level, so you might have to endure me.

What I experienced with the mercury poisoning was far beyond my worst nightmare. The adverse health effects, the numb brain, the bad attitude, mercury rage as I call it... but I know myself and I know that's not me, I could feel the mercury running in my blood at times, could sort of hear it even like a whirring sound in my veins, absolutely dreadful and very very scary. I also agree counseling is useless... what helped me most was chelation, it's not a mental problem even though it affects behavior. However, I often read this board and notice the high ratio of such complaints from non-christians as compared to people like myself who believe or know that the Lord is nearby to comfort, heal, and give peace. I often think that maybe some of these people have spiritual problems as well as heavy metal poisoning.

Anon that almost sounds like threat, I think most of us know a great deal about Mercury poisoning. Give it your best shot, will we worry, I don't think so. Get a life.

I have come to the conclusion tracy, that no matter what we do in this world to try to protect ourselves, health, diet etc, something is going to get us. the world is so filthy and toxic it's almost impossible to avoid.

Someday, archeologists will dig up graves of our generations, redundantly see the amalgam filled teeth, and write theories about the fall of western civilization and mercury just like they write about lead drinking glasses and lead posioning in the roman empire.

I think your right and that's one of the most sensible statements I've read today. Love and best wishes Tracy x

TRACY,

I cant keep quiet anymore

That was not a threat and I am sick to death of you and your attitude problem, if people dont tell you what you want to hear you tell them to get a life, if they make a "SUGGESTION" you take it the wrong way and insult them. Everybody on this forum has to walk on egg shells around you in case you take what they say the wrong way. I personally hope that you leave along with your two buddies who arent coming back, it'll be a better place without you on your high horse. If the point of your sweeping statements are to belittle everyone elses experiences CONGRATULATIONS! I dont see how this furthers your recovery. You belittle everybody elses illness because none of "us" could ever be as sick as you and hence none of "us" could ever possibly understand. Living out your existance in a black hole of depression could never possibly compare to what you have been dealt and therefor the advice to you is patronising. That is pathetic!!!

what diffrence does it make if a person chooses to remain anonomous as I have and will continue to do, it probably bothers you because you wont know who to harbour the grudge against later. Its the internet and incase you havnt noticed everyone here is in fact anonomous Rocket science??? (with or without a nickname). I despise that you use Christs name in vain when it suits you. Christ is not an adjective and if you had any respect whatsoever for anybody here you would refrain from doing so as that is a slap in the face to ANY christian - Not just me. Oh wait, its that attitude of yours again, if YOU dont believe screw those that do and how they feel about it, If our symptoms dont match up to YOURS to hell with our opinions because we dont know what we're talking about blah blah blah

Frankly I am disinclined to pay you the compliment of giving you any more of my attention. I suggest you go and try your belittling somewhere else.

I think the problem with posting anonymously is that it suggests you have something to hide. Granted, we all possess an anonymity of sorts with our individual login names but having one still allows other users to reference our personality and, in effect, know who is posting. Posting openly rather than anonymously exhibits sincerity and authenticity, whereas posting anonymously will always come across as untrustworthy and dishonest. I hope this helps.

On a lighter, more pleasant note, thank you for expressing interests in my own beliefs, Tracy. They're not always well received by the general community. You might find a lot of value from researching pagan beliefs similar to mine such as Celtic Reconstructionism, Wicca, et al. I admit I was raised into my religion so I can't say with honesty that I chose my faith, but I feel it is the right path for me and can imagine practicing no other belief system than that of my pagan roots.

Good riddance

Hallelujah Anon .... its about time

before we all get ahead of ourselves we need to remind ourselves just who the real enemy is here (MERCURY)
we need to stay focused

I think feelings are running a bit high here . . . while we are expressing our opinions, please can we try to keep civil. This goes for everyone.

Tracy, when I suggested you might benefit from counselling, I was not suggesting that this would make your medical problems go away. I was not suggesting that meditation would make them go away either. There are coping mechanisms that could be employed. Things that could help you deal with all the things on your plate, now or in the future. I've seen counsellors and it helps me personally to talk to people like that. I have had some CBT and it's been useful. My own medical problems are still there, but a lot can be said for how we deal with what we face. BTW it if often a part of a psychiatrist's training to undergo therapy with another psychiatrist. It involves admitting that you are human, and not perfect, and that someone else coming from another perspective might help you develop and grow in some ways. Sure there are good therapists and bad therapists. I would give a lot to have the chance to talk to a really good one right now.

Bex, I'm aware that Christianity has been around for 2000 years. It has been interpreted differently by different people over time. Medieval Christianity is fascinating. I've visited a lot of old churches here in England. Look at the iconography, I think it says a lot about the mindset of the time. And people who wrote their thoughts down, like St. Augustine or Thomas Aquinas. People have changed over 2000 years and you can't expect their religion not to change with them. This is one problem with the Catholic church, its leaders want to anchor it in the past while the world moves on.

Pwcca, bright blessings. I'd love to hear more from you. My best friend in the US is a Wiccan but my own path doesn't seem to lead quite in that direction. It still fascinates me though.

In fact, I love philosophical and religious discussions and it's been fascinating reading the posts here. I've seen some wonderful ideas. I'm glad someone brought up the concept of duality, which tends to be a Buddhist or Taoist idea, but it was placed here in a Christian context. I've said elsewhere that now I know what it's like to be full of hopelessness and despair, it's going to have a whole new depth of meaning to me when I experience moments of joy. Life has been transformed.

Please, let's hear more. But not get too personal?

Linda.

Anon I see you havn't bothered to read Russ's post about kindness. I was wrong, I now think you must be severely poisoned to show such anger and disrespect. We who come and don't have to hide by being Anon may hve conflicting ideas, but we find a middle road or let it go. As I stated if you
could be bothered to read, I respect people's different beliefs, it's their choice and if I want to show an interest I have every right. There are some of us who are more poisoned, or are more sensitive to chelation than others. I don't think others would argue that, it's just a fact. I have friends on this forum with deep religious beliefs and I don't criticise them . They are very good friends. What really pisses us off is people coming on and disrespecting our friends with stupid, ignorant comments, when they have no idea what that person is going through, some of us do because we've used the forum for a long time and got to know each other well. That dosen't mean we always agree about everything but who does. I think you must be very depressed and angry to write what you did, Personally it's water off a ducks back to me. Am I upset,NOT A BIT, would I leave the forum cos some anon coward tells me too I think not. Will I continue to stick up for my good mates,like Jinx. Damn right I will. When others read this will they think your out of order and a bossy,pathetic coward who won't even reveal theirselves. Yea I think they will. If I knew you were a woman I would guess you had PMT. You must be very jealous that some of us have got so close and are not frightened to question things or make valid points. Thats the point of the forum, do you understand or am I speaking to someone with limited intelligence. I really feel very sorry for you, you must be a very sad and lonley person. You talk about christianity like it makes you a saint. Well you are just the kind of person that make me question religion, cos I've met many people like you who think that labelling themselves makes them a good person and excuses them for treating and talking to people like crap. If I was a true PRACTERCING Christian or Catholic person on this forum I would certainly feel ashamed and disgusted that you consider yourself the same as them. Do you think God would approve of your post. I think not. As I said you are nothing but a weak coward hiding behind Anon and labelling yourself as religious. Believe me I do question religion because of morons lke you. I ain't going anywhere and neither are my friends. I should thank you actually cos you gave some of us a good laugh. I would go and have a lie down if I were you and chill. Tracy - not ANON

Quotes (see brackets) from kind caring loving Tracy

“yes Linda you are right it does sound patronising, and I won't even bother saying anything else because really that question dose'nt even warrent a reply Tracy”

(“Havn't got a b*****y clue what your talking about). I think personally suggesting I see a counsellor is very patronising as I use to be one, before this illness struck. (You people just don't seem to be getting It), talking about being poisened and physically ill won't help. (Christ) if it did there would be no ill people on this forum. (You both are talking crap). I'm sorry but I'm not the only one who thinks so.”

“Anon that almost sounds like threat, I think most of us know a great deal about Mercury poisoning. Give it your best shot, will we worry, I don't think so. ( Get a life).”

“Am I upset,NOT A BIT, would I leave the forum cos some anon (coward) tells me too I think not. Will I continue to stick up for my good mates,like Jinx. Damn right I will. When others read this will they think your out of order and (bossy,pathetic coward) who won't even reveal theirselves. Yea I think they will. If I knew you were a woman I would guess you had PMT. (You must be very jealous) that some of us have got so close and are not frightened to question things or make valid points. Thats the point of the forum, (do you understand or am I speaking to someone with limited intelligence.) I really feel very sorry for you, you (must be a very sad and lonley person.)

“As I said (you are nothing but a weak coward) hiding behind Anon and labelling yourself as religious. Believe me I do question religion (because of morons lke you.)”

“I hope you don't mind me disclosing this Jinx, but I'm trying to make (these idiots understand).”

“iN THAT CASE YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO HEAL YOURSELF SORRY BUT (YOUR LAID BACK APPROACH IS STARTING TO REALLY PISS ME OFF) IF YOU'VE WORKED ON PSYCHIATRIC UNITS YOU SHOULD KNOW HOW TO SORT YOURSELF OUT AND EITHER YOUR BLOODY POISONED OR NOT YOU COME ACROSS AS BEING VERY PATRONIZING AND IT TAKES A GREAT DEAL TO PISS ME OFF BUT TWO PEOPLE HAVE POSTED ME TODAY AND SAID (WHY THE HELL DO YOU EVEN BOTHER COMING ON HERE WITH THIS STUFF). i'VE ALSO HAD TO DEAL WITH SOMEONE WHO IS READY TO TAKE THEIR OWN LIVES GOD FORBID THEY DO SORRY BUT IM RATHER UPSET AND DONT WANT OR NEED A LECTURE TRACY

“(I dont believe for one moment that this person has suffered toxicijty like we have). I love my kids more than anything in this world and for (this self centered bastard)”

“cos they obviously know nothing or care for anyone else. Dont ever reply to my posts again you (ignorant bastard),”

“(i still dont belive you were ever as toxic as some of us).,”

“when I read that post I just couldnt believe anyoe could be so judgemental. (Christ) as if we havent tried and to say”

Sorry Linda, but talking about anchoring something in the past does not suddenly make it "outdated". If something is the truth, it stands. Truth does not change with the times simply because you or I or anybody else says so. The word of God as it is, is timeless. I do not believe that sin suddenly becomes "in" because of the times or acceptable because it's fashionable. It is easy to go that way because the world tends to do that, but according to Christ the road to Heaven is narrow and few who are who travel it. In fact, the history of the bible speaks of very similar behaviours in the long distant past. As in the times of Noah, so will it be when the Son of Man returns. NOah was laughed at back then for similar reasons. I can almost imagine him getting "oh get with the times Noah, sin is outdated". There are worldwide flood accounts in over 250 cultures. And many of them have not even seen or heard of the bible! Interesting. It is also compelling that the stories are almost identical, differing due to culture. E.g. a big boat, one family of 8 that was saved and headed by one man who was loyal to God to the end "noah". Now how does this happen? When these cultures have not even heard of the bible? Yet their ancestors have obviously (who survived the flood) passed down what happened.... Interestingly enough, a lot of these so called legends can be traced back to actual events. It is not all "story telling". Far too many to be just "fiction".

There are many bible interpretations that are extremely close to the ancient scrolls. People are free to walk away from it or accept it. Those that decide to change it to fit in with their new age philosophies will never be able to get rid of the original texts no matter how hard they try.

I dont believe that something like this becomes old fashioned becuase it simply does fit with the current godless lifestyle. What Pope John Paul the II called "the culture of death".

If one does find other mis- interpretations then they jump on that and say "well it can't be true because it keeps changing".... For me and any other true Christian, the bible (the closest interpretation) is the truth. INspired by the holy spirit, with the old and new testament written before and after the time of Christ by faithful inspired but not necessarily sinless people, e.g. Moses, David and Paul (who were all murderers who reformed their lives). passed down through the ages.

I feel as a believer that the bible (the word of God) can indeed be relied upon. Both in prophecy and in history. I do not feel that God's laws are privvy to man's interference. Like it or not, the bible has been around a long time and I dont think it's going away anytime soon.

Linda, I'm a Roman Catholic by the way. Just thought I'd throw another bone in there to chew! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

i dont think religion should be changed at all, i dont agree with gay priests or gay marraiges.

You havn't got a grudge against me have you? Anon. It must have taken some time putting all that together. What do you hope to gain. As I said we have freedom of speech and sometimes we question things. Sometimes things get heated, thats human nature. If I believe I'm out of order with someone I say so, like I did with Richard. Well I suppose it gave you something to pass the time away. Still won't reveal who you are I notice. Its slightly suspicious. Anyway you carry on with your judgemental game like a good Christian. Hope it keeps you occupied and happy. Personally I'm bored with it, got better things to do.

honestly anon, get over it and try a name, any name will do. Anon1 would work wonders. A few dozen people here use the same one you currently do.

I didn't realize I could attach a file in preview mode maybe I can get a big photo of that angel in here...

cool, ok. You have to click in the topic bar of this post where it says attachment. I will now return to my other icon thingy for my userid. Who wants to see my smilin mug?

That is a real photo btw, completely untouched or photoshopped except to resize to upload.

hey look here is a pic of the kids playing in the river in the backyard. Isn't it pretty here? Gee whiz this is fun...

<img src="http://herballure.com/ubbthreads/attach/240516-075.jpg">

I think I have this figured out. I will get some photos up soon to show the telltale signs of heavy metal poisoning in my fingernails... I have lots of cool photos of the garden too, all sorts of herbs for you enthusiasts...wait'll you see my squashes... my salsa verde really kicks bottled up a bunch yesterday not real good for the heavy metals but I cannot resist it. Great with a coooold beer <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"People who suffer the most, people in 3rd world countries, commit the least amount of suicide. Statistically. It's in the more privelaged nations where suicide rates are highest. They're actually suffering less, proportially, but their tolerance to withstand pain is dramatically lower as a result of living in gentler surroundings."

Excellent point! The world can at times be a very cruel place. A charity I contribute to performs high quality cataract surgery in lesser developed countries for under $20 per eye, and trains opthalmologists from lesser developed nations in this high quality low cost procedure. It is still mind boggling to me that around 25 million or so people in the world are blind due to caracts when their vision can be restored for only around $40 each. There aren't enough opthalmologists in these lesser developed countries trained in performing this low cost high quality procedure, and not enough money contributed to fund the operations. Apparently not enough people in the world care enough about the blindness of some far away stranger to contribute just $40 to cure it. The world can be a very cruel place.

I like to read the book of Ecclesiastes for inspiration. It was writted by King Solomon.

1:9 "9. What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun."

1:14 "14. I saw all the deeds that were done under the sun, and behold, everything is vanity and frustration."

1:18 "18. For in much wisdom is much vexation, and he who increases knowledge, increases pain."

3:1 "Everything has an appointed season, and there is a time for every matter under the heaven."


7:4 "4. The heart of the wise is in a house of mourning, whereas the heart of the fools is in a house of joy."

7:5 "5. It is better to hear the rebuke of a wise man than for a man to hear the song of the fools."

Lovely picture SoSick.

Anon, if you don't like what Tracy is saying, can you at least put a lid on it please. You are now starting to embarrass yourself with so much flaming. Tracy is going through a very rough time. Maybe you are too, I don't know. But live and let live.

Bex, I grew up as a Roman Catholic, which is why I feel I can say things about it, having lived 18 years as one and having wanted to be a nun when I was young. I think there are some great messages in the Bible and Jesus was a wonderful teacher. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a tenet that has guided my life. However it is important to acknowledge that there is a huge cultural and political slant to any religion. There are people in charge who decide how things are interpreted. There are social trends. How did all the Protestant groups start springing up hundreds of years ago, if everyone was content to follow what the Bible said, and how it was practised? Look at the huge variety of sects that arose and migrated to the New World because their ways were not tolerated by others supposedly of the same general faith.

Have a look at the rules in the Book of Numbers. When was the last time you obeyed God's orders to offer animal sacfrifice? What, you forgot to do that last week? (You can find lots of things like this in the Old Testament). People will overlook old societal rules like this, yet extract bits that they rather like such as homosexuality being an abomination.

And think of what the Catholic church tells people today. There is little theoligical basis in some of it. Top of the list, they tell people not to use contraception. My father's parents listened, and they ended up having 8 children in poverty, the youngest 2 of which were adopted by older members of the family before they were taken into care. Where is the sense in this? Why is it more "natural" not to use contraception? It's OK, then, for women to continually get pregnant even if it destroys their lives -- the world over? And women still are not allowed to be part of the hierarchy. Scripture apparently justifies this. Funny, then, how they are allowed to be minsters in other Christian faiths. There is definitely misogyny inherent in the Catholic church. I remember my parents making me go to church with them and I had to endure preaching about the evils of abortion. Sick of being told by them what to do, I wanted to walk out of there.

Another interesting thing is that my religious education was very cossetted. I learned plenty about my own religion, but everyone else's was a mystery. The message seemed to be that they were misguided anyway, and all I needed to know was the true path. This was OK until I was about 18 and growing a mind of my own. I discovered Joseph Campbell. I took some university courses in world religions. I exploded out of the box, started reading and learning. I am rather resentful that I never got the opportunity to learn about other people's world views when I was little, though I think I am making up for lost time now. Fortunately religious education is part of the school curriculum from an early age here. There is plenty about Christianity and Noah's ark, but there is also a large Asian population here, so the children learn about Diwali and Ramadan and Guru Nanak too.

If I could re-do my university education I'd probably study comparative religion and anthropology. I guess plain old English isn't too bad. I can still always keep reading and learning.

Linda.

Sorry, I think the "rules book" is Deuteronomy isn't it. Numbers is who begat who. It's been a while since I've been curious enough to have a look.

Linda, because one may have grown up as a Roman Catholic or wanted to be a nun, doesn't necessarily mean the person has all their facts straight. You made up your mind to walk away from the faith based on how you felt or perceived it, but that does not mean it's "false".

Boy, we could really get into it on here and I can see where this is going. If you would like to continue this offlist? I'd be happy to. I do not want us to get into personal attacks, but certainly I was not brought up Catholic. Interestingly enough I came into the church very very late (age 24) so me and you have some interesting links and opposites. I became a Catholic from learning about the teachings, you left the church for the same reason?

Yes, your feelings do echo many in regards to contraception. I too have had some issues on the contraception side for sure. Yes, for many reasons including the ones you have given. I feel that it is not a very easy thing for the church to decide on.

Certainly, according to God at least, we are a human being from conception (immediately). And that the sexual act is certainly sacred in teh sense that God made this a gift for a man and woman to share within marriage.

I do not think it was JUST for reproduction of course, it is for bonding and pleasure as well. But let us not forget something, in frustrating the outcome of such a union there is always the danger of "is this ok with God?". So the whole issue of contraception is difficult. So for sure the church is criticised for that. But again there is no clear answers on this.

I absolutely have to say something to you here. Abortion according to my church is intrisically evil. the killing of a growing innocent baby simply because it's covered by a womb can be considered "ok", makes no sense. Im sure you know about partial birth abortion? That they have killed babies as they are coming out. How can this be ok? Where does one draw the line????? They kill them at 6 months. the baby is perfectly human, feet, hands, fingers, the lot. Even sucking their own thumb. Extremely early on.

I have zero tolerance for abortion. Yet those who have had abortions? I do not judge them because I have no idea of their personal pain, experiences or lack of realisation. But nowhere do I find that the killing of the unborn can ever be justified. Isn't it amazing that a man can be charged for murder twice when he kills a pregnant woman....yet doctors are killing unborn babies all the time and it's suddenly "ok".

They call a baby a baby when it suits, but change the name when they are attempting to refer to it as nothing more than a piece of tissue that can be disgarded.

If the church okayed abortion, they would be completely against Christ and against life. Where in the bible did it state "Thou art with a piece of tissue" Or "thou art with foetus" It was stated "Thou art with child" that upon conception Christ was considered a child.

Every child in the womb is a human being, not a fish, not an ape. A woman's choice? I notice those who are all for abortion have already been born... They have had life and the chance to live.... Funny that. I wonder has the baby got any choice?

The catechism of the Catholic church explains the beliefs and is backed up fully by bibilical quotes.

Bex, I've got no trouble with your beliefs and I hope you have none with mine. I've been enjoying having a discussion here about different things that people believe and I was really liking the way we seemed to be talking, disagreeing in some ways maybe, but not taking offense. I'm sorry if I've crossed a line. I understood that while this forum is about mercury, people are OK to talk about other things if a topic is devoted to them. There are a number of threads on here about fundamentalist Christian beliefs so I don't see why this one should be treated any differently. If you want to talk about mercury on other threads here then I promise I won't bring religion into it. I admire you Bex and I am not out to try to change anything that you think or believe.

Linda.

Hi Linda, I just changed my post and had no idea you had already responded!!! Ouch. At any rate I'm sure you'll have mre to say after that!. I was really feeling very strong on some points you made.

So forgive me for unleashing a little. I do definitely respect your feelings. But when someone speaks up about my own faith? If I feel differently? I like to respond or even stand up for it if I sense unfairness.

For me? It has been a journey and not easy living this and in the world at the sametime. People have strong views no matter what faith or none at all.

I had to say what I said on abortion because I can tell you that I have seen one happen on film. I have never seen anything so atrocious in my life. Perhaps you understand now?

It was only in development stage, but absolutely dreadful.

Again though, I know people have walked away from the church and I think it's tough to hold onto to any faith in this day and age. I have friends who are atheists, and ones of other faiths. Somehow the topic remains always "unsaid" silent. For the obvious reasons.

Our existance, beginning, life and death are the strongest things anybody can discuss. So it leads to heated discussions.

So from me, no offense to you. I admire you also. I just feel strongly on things and if I dont speak up? I feel I am being cowradly or letting down my faith....does that make sense? So many times I have said nothing when I should have spoken up....then I think "should I just ignore it?".

I dont expect you to fall into my belief system, and vice versa Im sure. But certain aspects I felt I needed to speak out. I think the discussions can be really interesting and inspiring, but too often it involves personal feelings.

I actually AVOID forums for the most part that entail debate, because in the end i find it quite gut wrenching and I find I feel sick when I get online. I know that is probably because I'm unwell and feel so strongly about stuff. That's my character I guess.

anyway, no hard feelings. And please do not take my comments as an affront to yourself as a person.

Oh I see . . . I didn't know we could edit posts after they've been up on the forum.

I gave abortion a passing mention, thinking maybe there was a risk of that turning into a discussion of its own. My point at the time was that I was being preached at, things I didn't agree with, and wasn't given a chance to express any opposition. Sermons that you actually disagree with are excruciating.

I think another thread here talks about abortion. I think I could list many people from this forum who would most certainly be against it. I personally feel it is an important right for a woman to have, with certain conditions attached. Would I have one myself? I wouldn't know unless I actually was faced with the choice. I've been through the experience of growing a baby inside me and I know it would be very difficult. The answer for me is to use contraception sensibly so that the necessity for such a decision never arises with me. I know this is something that people feel very strongly about and are never going to agree on, so I'm not too keen on debating that here to be honest. No one's going to change my mind and I don't expect to change anyone else's.

Bex if you want to leave this thread because it's upsetting you then that's fine. Like I said, I don't feel a need to pursue it anywhere else. I'd like to hear more from people from some other faiths here if you guys are still around, maybe you can teach me a few things. Or how about discussing those interesting experiences you said you've had, SoSick?

Linda.

Hi Linda, I dont consider abortion a passing comment. But ok, I see your point and this is not a religion/abortion debate forum. But I could not take those comments lying down. Never will.

Bex.

Can I ask what you've actually seen, SoSick? Not necessarily interpretations of who/what it was, but the facts about what happened?

I don't know why, but I've been fascinated by ghosts since I was young. I've never actually seen one. A hobby I had before the depression was "ghost hunting;" a group of us would visit various sites of alleged hauntings and do experiments, take measurements, etc, in an effort to get some scientific evidence for what was going on. Can't say I've had any success yet, but I really enjoyed it. It's been 3 years now since I was able to go out and do that kind of thing because of the illness. But I can still read at least. Poltergeist phenomena probably intrigue me more than anything else, there's definitely something weird going on there, physical laws in operation that we don't understand. I know plenty of people who have experienced this. Almost anyone you talk to has a good ghost story it seems. Apart from me LOL. I just listen to everybody else's.

Linda.

I think I understand Bex. You have a deep respect for life in all its forms. You make me think of the Jains, who take care not to kill insects. It's all about respecting life. I respect it too, but in a different way maybe, I'm seeing things from a different perspective. Maybe it's best to leave it at that, I think we could get into some very emotive areas that would upset a lot of people. Don't want to do that.

Linda.

Hi Linda, lol yes actually I dont kill insects without a lot of thought first usually I take them outside in a jar, but that depends on whether they've angered or freaked me out and a jar doesn't always come to mind.... so sometimes sh*t happens.

But I always feel bad afterwards <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

"Have a look at the rules in the Book of Numbers. When was the last time you obeyed God's orders to offer animal sacfrifice? What, you forgot to do that last week? (You can find lots of things like this in the Old Testament). People will overlook old societal rules like this, yet extract bits that they rather like such as homosexuality being an abomination. "

The rules for animal sacrifices are in Leviticus. Those from the tribe of Levi(specifically the Kohanim("Priests" those whose father was a Kohain. The first kohain was Aaron, Moses' brother) with the assistance of of Leviim(those from the tribe of Levi who were not Kohanim) assisted in the Temple duties. Animal sacrifices ended with the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE.

There are 613 commandment in the Old testatament that Jews are commanded to follow, and 7 commandments(the Noahide Laws) which were given for all humanity to observe. These are the 7 Noahide Laws.

1. BELIEF IN G-D
Do not worship Idols
2. RESPECT G-D AND PRAISE HIM
Do Not Blaspheme His Name

3. RESPECT HUMAN LIFE
Do Not Murder

4. RESPECT THE FAMILY
Do Not Commit Immoral Sexual Acts

5. RESPECT FOR OTHERS’ RIGHTS AND PROPERTY
Do Not Steal

6. CREATION OF A JUDICIAL SYSTEM
Pursue Justice

7. RESPECT ALL CREATURES
Do not be cruel to animals.

http://www.noahide.org/

As for the 613 commandments the Jews were given, many don't apply now since they deal with service in The Temple(The second Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 CE). others deal with special regulations for produce grown in Israel. Some of the commandments are only for men, while others are only for women. Orthodox Jews follow those of the 613 commandments that are applicable to them.

I'll be honest and did n't cmpletely understand all of the post, brain fog very bad today. But I think one of the reasons I find it hard to accept religion is because of thes sort of thing. You'll have to bear with me. Does that mean we should still be sacrificing animals for God. See I just wouldn't be able to do that. Also I can't my head round the homosexuality bit. I know there are and maybe always been unacceptable practicies of this, but if some one through hormones or whatever, maybe akways had those feelings, do we turn our backs on them. I just find this confusing, cos if we did that, wouldn't we be being judgmental.. I guess I question things a lot, but I'm interested. Sorry I'm not sure if your saying that true believers must do this or in the present modern world the rules don't have to apply totally. Tracy

"Does that mean we should still be sacrificing animals for God. See I just wouldn't be able to do that."

Since Judaism has discontinued animal sacrifices almost 2,000 years ago(when the second Temple was destroyed in 70 CE) it is hard even for observant Jews to relate to the concept of animal sacrifices.

"Also I can't my head round the homosexuality bit. I know there are and maybe always been unacceptable practicies of this, but if some one through hormones or whatever, maybe akways had those feelings, do we turn our backs on them."

First of all, just because someone has a physical attraction
for someone of the same gender does not mean they must act on it.

" just find this confusing, cos if we did that, wouldn't we be being judgmental.. "

Human being need to be judgemental when it comes to fundamental issues if they want to preserve their sense of morality. How would you feel if you saw a bumper sticker that said "if you don't like abortions then don't have one"?

" guess I question things a lot, but I'm interested. Sorry I'm not sure if your saying that true believers must do this or in the present modern world the rules don't have to apply totally."

The seven Noahide Laws apply to all humans, and all humans should observe them. Observant Jews observe many more commandments. There are 613 of them, although many do not apply today since they deal with animal sacrifices and the Temple(the second Temple was destroyed in 70 CE).

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Part of the function of a religion in a society is to lay down the rules for how that society should live. It provides a code of ethics and behaviour. These particular rules, which have been illustrated in such detail here, pertain to a particular group of people from the ancient past. Many of them can still be applied today because I think most people would agree that any society would not be able to function if people were murdering each other, not respecting each other's property, etc. Some of these rules do not apply. Here is where all the debate comes in. I guess fundamentalists would say that God gave these rules and therefore they are set in stone, like the ten commandments. I find this attitude frighteningly rigid and chillingly extreme. There are always exceptions to rules, and societies change. Of course there should be lots of debate about which rules, and how, but it does need to take place. We are not living in Palestine 1,000 b.c. I don't think this dilutes the general messages of the prophets in the Bible, or the stories in it and what they teach. Those are more universal and timeless. You could be quite a devout Christian and be saying these things. Religion needs to be a living thing; and if it is not, people will begin to see it as an anachronism and start deserting it (or at the other extreme, stick to the letter of its law and rail against the evil and the heretics in the world).

DOES GOD EXIST?

Absolutely!

Almost all top scientists believe in evolution and believe modern man has been in existence far more than 6000 years.

anonymous,
Where did you go to college and what did you study that leads you to conclude that carbon dating is bogus and that thermodynamics disproves evolution?
What is the law of biogenisis? I studied chemistry, physics, bioklogy and anthropology at Berkeley and believe evolution to be a fact. The best discussion of evolution is at talkorigins.com , especially the "posts of the month"

What happens to you if your a good person then but dont believe and your a wicked person but do? Tracy


I don't think God holds it against someone who has a hard time believing-- especially if that person has been through alot of insult and injury at the hands of others which has stripped them of any hope or faith.

There are MANY wicked people who believe in God- and in fact, some of the most wicked people are proudly religious. I work with one such woman who brags that she follows the 10 commandments perfectly-- in fact, she feels she SURPASSES the 10 commandments! She just KNOWS that she is going to Heaven when she dies-- but this same woman is the worst gossip in the office. Very arrogant, and looks down at other employees, and has ridiculed many to their face and behind their back with her supervisors. Where is the love? I don't see it .

God looks at the heart of a person. There are many suffering people who believe in God in thier heart, but can not believe mentally because of being abused , etc.

God isn't impressed if we believe He exists-- He wants to see the fruit.


In the Christian Bible, there's a verse (Luke 20: 46-47 ) that says it all:

"Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts.

Which devour widows' houses, and for payment, make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation."


The Scribes and pharisees were the "intelligencia" of that day, -- just as we have the Wicked Elite of our day-- Same spirit but more modern costume.

Do I have a right to another person's kidney if I will otherwise die? Does a fetus have a right to life if that right involves use of another person's body in order to live ?
Does'nt the bible say be fruitful and multiply so are'nt you being a bad Christian Bex since you are in your late thirties and have no children?

Anon, how can you compare a kidney to a child in a womb? The child is a human being, it is not an organ!

Am I being a bad Christian because I haven't had kids? hmmm let's consider this. I am 34 and have been sick since age 15. I have spent most of my life like this without the chance to and have longed to be like others and be married with kids. Things did not work out for me in that way and this causes me quite a lot of inner pain, more than people know.. "be fruitful and multiply" means to have children once you are married. The single life, the religious life (priest nun etc), and the married life are all christian life options. Biblically endorsed by Jesus.

I did not intend to have a life like this, nor do I enjoy it. But I am not going against God's law by being poisoned and a nun is not going against God's law to spend their life in prayer for the world. If I had the option I would choose marriage and children, but for now? I cannot and possibly it may never occur. Circumstances as they are do not look good. So, my life being what it is, consists mainly of trying to find answers and being supported by others doing the same, which I have found on this forum.

If you read the entire bible, you get a much greater idea of what is expected. Be fruitful and multiply is true, but read the new testament as well and see how many people lived in celibacy devoting their lives to God. Neither of those lifestyles are sinful. Things are clearly pointed out.

If one cannot help being single due to circumstnaces, that is not their fault. I would not dare say such a thing to someone that had been ill or even paralysed or something else that I might not know about. But being under an anonymous handle makes that much easier <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If the unborn child poses a risk to the mother, remember something it is a human being also. Dying isn't a crime, murder is. but again most abortioins are not performed because the Mother is at medical risk of dying, they are done becuase the baby is an inconvenience. Check the statistics! You are talking about a very rare medical case.
If it was done becuase the Mother's life was at risk....I dont know that is very difficult. Only God can judge circumstnaces like that. IF I was in that situation? I have no idea what I would do. And I cannot judge someone who is, but I can say that a child in the womb is as human as you and I are. Nowhere in the bible does it refer to a child in the womb as a foetus or piece of tissue. Nor would I ever condemn the women who have been horribly pressured, confused, or uninformed of what is REALLY happening.

You can put any name you want on it to try and make it sound clinical and take away the human aspect as much as possible, but it doesn't change what it is. Abortion is a fancy term for termination of a life - murder. It is not done in self defense,so it isn't even man slaughter. Done to save the life of the Mother is a rare moral dilemma. Whether Mother's life is truly in danger.

Any inconvenience or discomfort is enough to "justify" abortion in my country. We have one of the worst rates in the world and I am ashamed of this scandal. I've seen more compassion towards animal cruelty and save the whales, than towards the helpless unborn child. The womb has become the most dangerous place in the world for a human being, yet it should be the safest.

And here you are sitting here with a life typing on a computer under an anonymous name deciding whether a child in a womb has a right to live or not, whilst youve already been given that right. Are you aware that a child in the womb has full DNA from conception? Unfolding until old age and death if you're lucky to get that far!

We all hate what the nazis did in world war II when they EXTERMINATED (a term that sounds much like one is getting rid of vermin) 20 million human beings in what is called the HOLOCAUST. How much more should we detest and oppose the ABORTION HOLOCAUST which has seen the extermination of over a billion helpless human beings worldwide?

It's just as well for you and me that mass slaughter did not begin decades earlier, otherwise it's possible that each of us would not even be having this discussion.

Any woman that has had an abortion and regrets doing it or thinks twice is open to God's mercy. It is not for anybody to condemn them, but rather I am obligated as a Christian to stand up and speak out for those without a voice if/when the opportunity arises.

Tracy you are rambling and having a hard time forming up coherent sentences
And yes this thread is dumb, there is no way to know. Most religion threads turn into flamewars
Go read philosophy and still come empty handed
A good rule of thumb that doesn't get broken for over 95% the worlds population is you will believe in whatever god your parents believe.
And just because you think you are having a hard time doesn't proof anything or disprove anything. If you are going to be an atheist there are million better arguments than OH NO MY LIFE ITS HARD (it isn't, go to africa or a third world country for some perspective)
You will sound less like a self-centered emo teenager whining if you said something like I believe in scientific fact above all else

"Part of the function of a religion in a society is to lay down the rules for how that society should live. It provides a code of ethics and behaviour. These particular rules, which have been illustrated in such detail here, pertain to a particular group of people from the ancient past."

The 7 Noahide Laws were given by G-d to Noah for all humans to follow. The 613 commanments in the Old Testament(which also include the laws set down in the 7 Noahide Laws) were given for Jews to observe.Whether those in other religions should observe some of the 613 commandments not included in the 7 Noahide laws is something for each sect to decide.

I like this thread. We are having a very civilized discussion here. We are all obviously of very different religious backgrounds.

All humans have a right to live in hell forever - it is a God-given right that belongs to everyone that CHOOSES not to share what they have been freely given in love with their neighbors, brothers and sisters, in the same spirit of love. There are no mothers, fathers, children, or families of any kind there. Yes, you have every right to kill your unborn child if you so choose. But if you try to kill somebody else's child (God's), you will pay for it. (probably he will kill YOU.)

And I agree with Tracy that coming on as anonymous makes it too easy to speak whatever you feel like speaking without being accountable to anyone. It's much like trying to have a conversation with someone who wears sunglasses on purpose so that no-one can see his/her eyes. It's fine for people who just want to say a few words in passing, but not for ongoing conversations.

Wow, that is really mean spirited.

Maybe if you get a hammer you can bang faith into her head.

Maybe try using a hammer to bang some love into your heart first and see if anything is living there at all.

My two cents about the old testament, referring to Numbers, Leviticus, etc.

Please remember that's why Jesus came-- to abolish the law of the old testament and the new testament came into being when Jesus was born and the new law, the "commandment to love one another" was put into place.

Galatians 3:13 "we are redeemed from the curse of the law", Jesus was the ultimate eternal sacrifice of all sacrifices for our sin so we do not have to sacrifice bulls, goats or any other animal. HE became the sacrifice. It's not meant to be hard. Too much analyzation leads to confusion when the message is simple.

I think why people have so much trouble with the bible is because of weird interpretations and man-made religions... to answer the questions about why did so many Protestant religions pop up. People trying to add to what is a plain and simple message..."all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

It's that simple. Do you want to be forgiven for your sins? Do you want eternal life? All you have to do is ask Jesus into your heart, believe that He died for you. That's it. It really is that simple. He loves you and wants to reconcile your sin through His dying on the cross. It's a gift.

When you spend too much time analyzing the message in the bible it's like stepping over dollars to pick up pennies, the whole message is lost. Yes, there are tons of interpretations out there, but the simple message thats in John 3:16 is what it's all about, eternal life with Him, not etnernal life in hell.

It's dangerous to come up the light (the knowledge of the Word) and turn your back on it. Don't be deceived by mental gymnastics. Yes, questions might come up, and there is so much more to fellowship with Him than eternal life, but if you just accept that ONE message by faith the rest can either be worked out down here or later in heaven, however, you don't know the day you are going to die, so to put off your decision to "believe" or to "be convinced" is foolishness.

I realize I might get a slew of angry comments after posting this message, but to continue with conversation about the old testament and what about sacrifices and abortion, is mental, when accepting the Lord is a heart decision. We are not going to know all the answers now, but I do know that if you ask the Lord into your heart you can begin fellowship with Him and He will help you find answers. They may not be the answers you like, but ask Bex said, you cannot pick and choose what you want to believe in the bible or not, "the just shall live by faith" not by your mind.

Gabriella

Redeemed from the curse of the law, not neccesarily the whole law.

In regard to gentiles this was written in Acts:

[color:"blue"] Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. [/color]

But this is written in James:

[color:"blue"]James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [/color]

If you read that carefully, if you fulfill the new commandment to love one another, you wouldn't kill, steal, commit fornication, etc. And does include the WHOLE law. After Jesus came we are commanded to live by faith in the Lord, not the law.

Galatians 3:11...

11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12And [color:"purple"] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. [/color]

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Fulfilling the commandment to walk in love in the new testament fulfills the old testament law. If you walk in love your not going to do things that God told us to not do in the old testament.

God just didn't say part of the law, HE said THE law. Again, this is mental discussion. Religion wants rules and regulations and looking to our own power to try to keep the commandments. Fellowship with the Lord, a personal relationship with the Lord involves your heart and if you are in fellowship with the Lord, you won't want to do anything that would defile your body or someone elses through food, fornication, etc.

Gabriella

I agree, that was a mean-spirited post from Anon to Bex, and yes people who say such things usually seem to want to hide their identity.

My personal feeling is this, following on from what I said about rules, and how I think it's important to differentiate them from other more universal aspects of a religion. When we talk about the Old Testament we're talking about tribes who lived in an area of the Middle East. It would have been beneficial for them to increase their numbers so that they remained strong and viable as a group, and able to fend off attacks from other groups. So it stands to reason that they would have had a strong family ethic which included having lots of children. And that homosexuality would have been anathema because homosexuals don't reproduce do they. In the society we live in today, I'm not saying family shouldn't be important, but we can now put these ideas of reproduction in a different context. This is why it is so vitally important to think and question what we are told, rather than just blindly follow the rules. We need to ask, whose rules are they, and are they still applicable to these people in this day and age.

Can I just ask, folks, if you want to refer to passages in the Bible or any other holy book, please can you either keep it brief, give a summary, or give the chapter and verse so that those who are interested in reading the full text can look it up.

Another mean-spirited anonymous post to Tracy . . . that's just cowardly. I am surprised at some of the venomous things these people come out with. Whatever valid points could be made are couched in insults. Show yer face!!

There's been talk here of being forgiven for our sins. When I was young I really did believe this, that there was something inherently bad and flawed about me because I was human, and as nothing to God. I had to be forgiven over and over in Confession. I think something inside me finally decided it had had enough of this. What is so sinful about being human? We are not perfect and we make mistakes. It is impoprtant to learn from them when we do, and move on. This is not the same thing as believing that there is something inherently bad or evil about us. I don't need anyone's forgiveness but my own, and I can be pretty hard on myself. I think what really got me thinking this way was actually studying Renaissance art. These people were deeply religious, but they were celebrating the beauty of humanity. Michaelangelo clearly had a deep love and awe of the human form. Here were some wonderfully talented people saying look, humanity is just amazing. We should look to the power of good and love within us, and the power to create and transform, rather than telling ourselves how sinful we are.

SoSick, I don't know if you saw my previous post, but would you be interesting in sharing some of your ghostly experiences? I am intrigued.

Linda.

I agree with much of what you said. Many people are just plain wicked, but only by thier own decision, and many are lacking in care - too much indifferent, but many people I believe only become sinful because we live in a world full of temptation and it seems to be almost impossible to remain completely pure in this kind of environment, especially when one's parent's - the people that raised him/her from birth do not give the love to that person that he/she really needs. Many people here I know are in this category and really this is not their own fault in any way. Humans are weak and God knows this because he made us this way. He did not want us to live in pain and misery in this way, but he never imagined that some of his own creations would become like this (wicked) and destroy it for the rest of us. Now he's in the process of cleaning up the mess that they made and it isn't easy. - that's how I see it anyway.

Linda and Sosick how is it you Bex can put over you theories in a civilised way, even though you don' t agree on everything. I admire the way you are trying to explain different ideas about beliefs. I thought this thread was going to be interesting to a lot of people and I'm pleased it has been, for some. Its just ashame some people have spoilt by being so vindictive. I admitted yesterday that I had limited knowledge and also bad brain fog and I get accused of 'RAMBLING and being INCOHERENT'. And the question to Bex about having a baby. I was shocked when I read that. Maybe the decent people on this thread could explain to me how those sort of remarks could come from a Christians mouth. Do they realise how painful that remark could be to her. This exactly what I meant about someone labelling themselves a Christian, but having such a mean spirit. I maybe wrong but isn't this worse than questioning belliefs.My heart goes out you Bex, but I think we just have to accept this is avery ill person! Tracy

I have been reading through this thread again and can't work out if there are more than one Anons adding posts. This is where it's helpful to have a name given, because if people come on as Anon there could be just one of you or many. So it gets to the point where as the threads progress,we have no idea who we are really answering. 'YOU WOULD SOUND LESS LIKE A SELF-CENTRED EMO TEENAGER WHINING IF YOU SAID SOMETHING LIKE I BELIEVE IN SCIENTIFIC FACT ABOVE ALL ELSE" Don't think you've been paying attention, I asked the question, Does God exist? I think a lot of people who are ill sometimes ask this. I couldn't say I believe in scientic fact above all else, when A) I havn't studied much about it and B) I'm still at this time opened minded about everything, and I have learnt a great deal from some of the valid posts on the thread. I do not consider myself to be the illest person on the Forum, or anywhere in the world. That would be ridiculous. If you think I whine and feel sorry for myself, yes in some ways your right. Well it's not so much feeling for yourself, but I suppose a kind of grieving for what you've lost, what plans you had that have had to be changed. But I think as a parent it's very hard because you feel such tremendous guilt at not being able to all the things you want with them. Many mothers on the forum have expressed this and I guess there maybe fathers too. I think it's only human nature to feel these things sometimes, and if I were lucky enough to truly beleve in something and gain some comfort, I would feel very priveledged. But if I don't feel it what can I do. Maybe one day it will change, I hope so, cos as I said it must be wonderful to feel that comfort. Until then I guess I'll just have to carry on being open minded about things Tracy

You are true to yourself Tracy, and that is admirable. I have sometimes wondered myself if I would be happier getting into Catholicism again. I think the job I would have been best at is a priest, but even if I'd wanted that, girls-not-allowed. You're right, there's a lot that is comforting about religion. And there is a lot of power in a group gathered for a ritual. I stood in church once, not actually wanting to be there but obliging my parents, and there was a part where people held hands. To my complete surprise, I felt energy going through me as soon as I joined up. And of course, there's the safety and support that come with being part of a group. Also, I like the mysticism in Catholocism. However, as you can probably see if you've read my posts, I've changed too much to be able to go back and just say OK, I believe now. I can see a lot of positives and a lot of knowledge of life in many different religions, but I don't think I'd ever be content to subscribe to the specific beliefs of only one. That isn't to say that I can't be a spiritual person, and that is something I keep working on. I would be doing more if I weren't ill.

Maybe there is another kind of group you could join Tracy. Something local. Do you have any hobbies? Maybe it's a silly question for now. I can't even drag myself out to my tai chi group and that's something I really used to like, so maybe you are in the same boat there.

But yes, thanks to everyone who has contributed and kept the discussion interesting and civil. Like I said, I love talking about things like this. Where do you discuss them if not in a church, LOL. I'm missing my Wiccan friend in the US, we had such fantastic chats.

Linda.

Hi Tracy, thank you for your your kind comments here, much appreciated. And Tracy, I would not worry yourself too much over the so-called scientific facts of a lot of these things, you would be surprised how much lies and bias can enter into it and the scientific arena is no exception. The arguing and deception that goes on and the changing of facts, circular reasoning, or keeping long- since disproven theories (which still turn up in textbooks) going should give you some idea that it is very hard to know what is REALLY going on. It is not always evolutionists and creationists going at eachother's throats, evolutionists also argue among themselves.

As most of us here are not scientists or geniuses, then so much is down to faith. And the stuff some go on about, I wouldn't have a darned clue about the terminology. Only someone who is familiar enough in the same area of education would be able to understand or even catch a person out if they were talking rubbish and hiding behind impressive terminology to fool others. You'd be surprised at how many frequent the forums who pose as being all sorts of important things in life. and maybe nothing of the sort! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Tracy, you will find that the amount of accounts of supernatural events in history are vast and in fact often one does not have to go past a friend, relative or neighbour to find similar accounts (even ourselves in some cases) and positive or negative, there are MANY strange occurances in life, history (as you know). I dare say there are probably far more supernatural stories/accounts than there are missing links (which by the way are called missing because....they're missing).. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If someone is on here with scientific background and knowledge, who is absolutely certain of evolution and can give a verifiable proof, I suggest (if it is still there) to look up Dr Kent Hovind's offer. He has offered a substantial amount of money to anybody who can give him solid proof of evolution. This guy debates with evolutionists all the time, he visits schools and has no problem at all having more than one evolutionist at a time debating with him.

There you go, if it is still there (go search) you can put HIS money where your mouth is (literally). And let me know if/when you receive the reward of being the first person who has changed the name "theory of evolution" to "the established fact of evolution". Fame and finance may well await you.

Tracy, I have watched debates amongst evolutionists and creationists on video many times. I have seen a creationist stand in front of a classroom full of evolutionary students pelting him with question upon question. I have seen creationist debating with more than one evolutionist at once. I can tell you Tracy that from what i have viewed? To see equally qualified people battling it out with arguments for either side is an interesting way to get an idea of both angles.

For me? I was far from rattled in my faith, but rather confirmed it. Certainly, I am beginning to understand that far from science disproving the existance of a designer, it can so often seem to confirm it. THe imprint of design upon nature and every creature is there (DNA and all).

Jill, being as knowledgeable as you are, could you tell me please the name of the top (or one of the top) scientist/atheist that has made a surprising admission (in relatively recent times) that though he still believes in Evolution, that he has found that without a doubt that it was sparked by intelligent design? You should know this because this guy was like the god of evolutionists/atheists. If I recall his name I will put it up on here. This guy, atheistic as he was seemed to arrive at the conclusion after years of studies and looking under microscopes that the evidence for intelligent design was no longer able to be denied. He admitted that it was not even possible for all this to happen without it. However, he does not believe that this "spark of intelligence and design or "being" or "power"" has any real personal qualities or interest in the world or its inhabitants. He appears rather to refer to "it" as power/intellect/design.

Dear Bex no worries mate. I was a little upset, for a short while about the comments made to me, but frankly that comment about having a baby was one of the most insensitive and cruel things I've ever heard. What is wrong with these people? However i know you are a strong person and like me will let it go over your head. You have to feel sorry for these Anons really, cos the majority of us on this forum have become close and we know because of the nature of this illness sometimes we have a bad day and need to vent, but even if we appear a bit unreasonable, we always let it go and understand. Thats where we are very lucky I guess, cos we don't have to hide our identity with fear of what we are saying, cos we know in the end we 're probably a bit emotional and we always let things go and remain friends. Thats why its such a good place for us to come, cos we can agree or disagree, but we'll still be here for each other. Let them dish it out, waste their time and isolate themselves. You and I and the majority know they just ain't worth the effort. Thanks SoSick, Linda, Bex and others who have made very interesting and reasonable answers to my question. xxxx Tracy

To a great extent I agree with you, especially that by loving one another we do fulfill so much of the law, it's undeniable. However, the written law, 10 commandments given to Moses, the Torah, provide pretty good guidlines as to what we should perceive as 'the law'. Within there however are certain items that are literally impossible for us to fulfill, which is why Jesus said 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone', etc, and thus he commands us to love another first and foremost.

In essence he is saying, judge ourselves by the law before we condemn others in it.

He admonishes the hebrews to keep the law many times, he himself set an example of it, minus adherence to the manmade rules setup over the years by the pharisees and saducees.

Much of what you quote is directed to the gentiles, 'that might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith', because otherwise the gentiles had no access to God whatsoever. But the law is not done away with and Jesus did not come to do away with it. In fact he says this concerning it:

[color:"blue"] Matthew 5:18 -
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. [/color]

How many times he healed people and then told them to 'go and sin no more'. Sin, being defined by behavior that contradicts the law, such as adultery.

How many times in your life, in mine, will we each contradict the law? Probably daily I'd say... for instance niether of us can probably follow the dress codes within there, like how? Other things of that nature... so within all of that he encourages us to love one another and understand each other's plight, suffering, hardship before judging too harshly because no one is capable of fulfilling all the law.

[color:"blue"] Luke 6:37 -
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: [/color]

Just a request for others here who posted before, to post again? This thread, like so many others here, feels like becoming another discussion of Biblical points amongst fundamentalists. I'm OK with that if we can hear some other voices too. Otherwise my interest here is gone, I feel like I'm talking into empty cyberspace.

Linda.

It's true. But maybe anonymous will at least get the message he seems to have missed and throw his stones at himself.

Ghost stories, Linda... just ask around, lots of people experience things they don't gop aroudnd shouting about, my experiences aren't actually all that unusual I simply decided long ago not to deny they happen.

My brother has actually experienced quite a bit of stuff in my parent's house since my mom passed away... much more than I ever eperienced there. I don't go there often anymore.

But I have to work today so no time to get into it now. Besides, they aren't stories about God, rather about hell devils and demons which is kind of out context also.

There are a number of people posting on this thread anonymously. I am a single male who doesn't have any children. I am not the one who in this thread brought up the issue of having children. it would be nice if instead of just being listed as "anonymous" , this website could use the internet address of the poster to look up the city of the poster and post the city name. I am in NYC.

There are many reasons why some of us don't have children. Either we are single, are very ill, don't have the financial resources to properly raise children, are infertile, or perhaps some other reason. We shouldn't question others without children why they don't have children.

Too right mate it's rude and nobody else's business. Best wishes Tracy

Thanks SoSick. When I did haunting investigations I simply was hoping to experience something, maybe to get some evidence. I don't watch any of those ghost-hunting shows on TV, they are silly. My goals were simply to learn about something we know little about, and to do it with like-minded people who were also fun to be around.

Personally, the jury's out with me where ghosts are concerned. I've heard enough to believe that some presences or energies seem to be positive, while others are depressive or even dangerous -- though I think this kind are rare. Demons from hell? I am doubtful, but try to keep an open mind. I think we really stand to learn a lot if we can figure out how to investigate in more adequate ways. After all, in ages past, thunder and lightning and tornadoes were seen as acts of the gods, until we came to understand the natural processes involved.

There's just this burning inquisitiveness inside of me where these things are concerned. I love ghost stories, and visiting haunted places. Why, I don't know. To my knowledge I've never actually seen a ghost. I guess I am just drawn to the unknown.

Ok, well those of you with an open mind to the demonic or at least to consider the reality of evil? Here is a link that gives a real audio of a possessed 16 year old girl in a Russian orthodox church. Word of warning, you may find the sounds disturbing.

http://www.floridaghost.com/possession%20cases.htm

Cases of possession are often recorded on audio to keep a record of. Very rare that one such as this gets out. This is on record. If you want to know where "Hollywood" got their idea for the sound effects of the demonic? This should give you some idea. So often they base their sound effects on real live cases. They are NOT allowed to use real live recordings as far as I am aware. This is certainly not a one off case, but true cases of possession are usually rare. And in order for the church to recognise and perform an exorcism, the person in question has to have already undergone throrough medical and pscyhological examination. The signs of possession have to be clearly evident before they will take a case on. The church if anything is so careful about this now that one coudl almost say they have gone a little the other way. But if they do not do this? they are open once again for ridicule.

Hitler outlawed abortion because he believed women should'nt do anything other than marry and have children.I don't believe in forsable pregnancy because I believe women should have the right to control their bodies and their lives.In Latin America and most of the third world,abortion is illegal and women have few rights.
You are against abortion Bex because a fetus is a human being not a kidney or other organ . You are also a human being . Does that mean you have a right to require me to give you a bone marrow transplant if you have cancer and it might save your life? If you need a kidney transplant, does anyone, even your sister, have to give you a kidney or do we have the right to control our own bodies, even to the detriment of others?

If you want to control your body and your life, that is your choice, you are free to abort yourself. But that someone inside the womb has their own body. If you feel it's ok to kill the child? Is it ok if I kill you if I decide you are an inconvenience to my life? also what do you make of partial birth abortion? babies already being born but being killed on the way out? Is that ok with you too? How about toddlers who get murdered because they are an inconvenience and drive the parents nuts? You cannot have it both ways. Just becuase the child is in your womb, doesn't mean you have a license to kill all of a sudden.

Your arguments here on organ transplant etc dont have anything whatsoever to do with murder. an unborn child doesn't have a voice and cannot defend themselves at all or make any choice. They rely on the Mother completely for suvival and safety whilst they are in the womb and they should be entitled to total protection.

Someone who is needing an organ transplant may require someone to save their life by donating their one of their organs....again there is always choice. Where is murder involved in this? do they have a knife held to their throat to donate? again, this is pro life because it has the concern for others. Someone offering their organ isn't being murdered and unlikely it is that they will die from doing so. Things do happen yes and often the receiver of the transplant may find their body rejecting the transplant and may die or need another one. All of this is about pro life, because people pitch in to help eachother. Dying to save another's life is absolutely commendable and even Christ said that there is no greater love than those who would die for their brother. Someone giving their life by choice to save someone else.

Very clever by the way to bring up Hitler's stance on abortion, I see what you were attempting to do, but you miss the point. Hitler was never pro life. This would be great if he applied such apparent anti abortion stance to the rest of his atrocious philosophies. Did he care about the other human beings he aborted from life? It all comes down to the right for every human being to have the chance to be born and live. Miscarriages cannot be helped and happen frequently to women.

In fact, it was known that Hitler adored his dogs. He treated his dogs better than the millions of humans he was responsible for having tortured and murdered.....you see the twisted irony in all this?

Nobody is ever forced to hand over their organ or bone marrow by the way, that is up to the person to choose. Two adults, with voices and the ability to choose.....does not equal a vulnerable growing baby in a womb with no voice, no abiity to cry out, no choice, totally vulnerable and being ripped out from the very place it should have been safe.

Oh they dont just rip them out, a needle is often placed in their brain to suck the brain out sometimes, bones are crushed. It's astounding what they do to them, some even come out half alive or with missing limbs. The ones that come out alive are murdered often by being suffocated/drowned. Go watch a video of an abortion or check out the pictures, or is it too much gore for you to handle?

I'll tell you one thing. If it was possible that a person could be taken back in time right to the womb, but was told beforehand "You are going to be aborted" you watch how many pro abortionists would change their view VERY VERY quickly. There have been those that have survived abortions and have been permanently maimed but thankful they had the chance for life.

Boldylox,
The church used to tell people that they would burn in hell for their evil acts but now they are told that their belief in Christ is all that is important and that they will go to heaven because they are Christians even if they are serial killers whereas someone who is'nt Christian will go to hell even if their worst sin is a parking ticket. It's all about money . Church attendance and donations go up when people are told what they want to hear and what they want to hear is that they are better than non Christians regardless of their behavior.

As I stated before the term theory in science does not mean a conclusion is speculative . As far as Mr Hovind's offer , who decides if evolution is conclusively proven?
As far as a top scientist who believes in evolution and intelligent design , theres always a few exceptions to the rule.I'm more interested in the analysis rather than his conclusions.
I'm stll waiting for anon 1, 2 or 3 to explain the" law of biogenisis" and thermodynamics as it relates to evolution. When you are done with that how about addressing some of my comments on the quackwatch article if you can.
Evolution is a complicated subject and obviosly it's off (way off) topic here except for the fact that we evolved from single cells a billion years ago who did'nt need dentists because they had no teeth into complex (some not so much) organisms with hg filled teeth.As I said or wrote ,the best discussion , both pro and con , on evoltion is found at talkorigins.com 's posts of the month.

Sorry Jill wrong. Read the bible. Christ is clear that ANYBODY who continues in their sinful ways and does not repent and change their lives is hellbound.

There is a dangerous philosophy out there that proposes that "once saved always saved", which lends a person to think "this means I can do as I please", this is not so. A person who repents and is reborn is required from then onto live as we were told. Falling through sin, means repenting and receiving forgiveness from the saving blood of Jesus Christ and getting up again. Christ's blood is not a one off event, but outside of all time.

IT does not mean doing what one wishes and using Christ's redemption on the cross as a one way ticket to Heaven regardless of how one lives. God stated "NOt all who cry Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father". Many will also remind God that they preached in His name, healed in His name, cast our devils in his name" and he will say "I know you not, depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire". These are people who have decided that they can preach and be saved and continue in personal ongoing sin are in for a terrible shock. Christianity is not the easy road and is an ongoing struggle against temptation and the world and it must start from change within. We cannot fool God, even if we might fool those around us who may think us "holy". "call no man good until he is dead". IN other words, it is possible for anybody to fall from grace and leave Christ at anytime, as it is possible for a sinner to come to the saving grace of Christ.. . However, it is far from advisable to ever rely on the last moment because so often people are snatched away from life unexpected. People usually die as they live and God gives every human being the opportunity to be saved.

Please do not judge everybody on the "once saved always saved, and i can do whatever I want" rubbish.

Speaking of single cells , bacteria , a good way to kill them and thus keep your teeth until you are 80 is to hold very salty water in your mouth for about three minutes thus killing them

what about gum disease.

A lot has sure happened here since I last posted. Well, there's too much to respond to thoroughly, but I do want to add a little.

Thanks for the pictures. They are pretty cool.

[color:"brown"]Anyone wanting to post pictures, just click the "FORUM EXTRAS" link near the top of this page. This provides an easy way to include pictures or even links in your posts.[/color]

Thanks VeggieJuicer. You're a natural-born moderator.


The only thing that I have time to respond to right now are the posts about gods and wicca.

There is much fascinating information in the Bible that talks about religions. The Bible also states that there are other gods...


"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

—1 Corinthians 8:5-6


When you study the very interesting area in the Bible about the fallen angels and the nephilim (Gen 6), you learn that one of the main themes of the Bible—and a theme that few speak about often—are the lessor gods, i.e. fallen angels.

In a nutshell, Yahweh made for himself a people. He wished to make a covenant with these people. These people largely rejected Him. He then opened His covenant to all people. This entire concept is outlined in this parable:


"And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen."

—Matthew 22:1-14


Of course, this entire course of events was by design, but I'll save that for another time.

Now of these people, some will follow Yahweh but others will follow other gods, which are the fallen angels:


"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations."

—Psalms 82:6-8


Notice the lower-case "g" in "gods". Also note that these are specified as "children of the most High". These shall die like men.

When you study this stuff, you realize that the Biblical definitions of a god is an eternal being, someone that never dies, however, this verse is noting something that has changed, namely, that the these eternal beings, these "gods", shall die like men.

Moving along, you will note that we are not to entangle ourselves with what God calls doctrines of demons.


"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."

—1 Timothy 4:1-3


Some of these doctrines are very seductive a very intelligently written so as to appeal to the soul and are written specifically to divert our relationship away from the Yahweh, the God of the Bible.

Many of these doctrines are derived either directly or indirectly from gnostic (meaning knowledge) sources and in most cases offer a "type" of salvation through knowledge. However, the God of the Bible has created a salvation by faith.

You will find that all of these old doctrines are alive and well today. These doctrines are just another trap that is set for those who choose a belief system from a buffet rather than searching for truth by intellect and evidence. We have to remember that God provides an abundance of evidence on which to build our faith.

Heiser calls the gnostic texts "watcher theology", as "watcher" is a term used of a type of the fallen angels. These are texts that diverged from the Christian texts and simply made the bad guys—namely the fallen angels—out to be the good guys. I believe Heiser is right on in his teaching on this. He's certainly done his homework.

I would encourage anybody who bases their faith (either directly or indirectly) on gnostic texts do some deeper study and find out who is really behind these sources of information. It's not hard to do since the pride of these beings often compels them to give you their names. Research both these sources and names carefully and you will find some very interesting problems and you may just discover that the Bible is accurate once again.


"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:"

—Colossians 1:13-22


Michael Heiser: The Sons of God


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Russ, thank you for these pictures. IN my country also in New Zealand, a discovery was made of ancient human bones of giant proportions. Far from the ape like qualities expected of such old bones, they had every evidence of being fully human. It would seem that far from evolving.....looks to me like we've deteriorated. This would make sense if one considers that God made everything "good" in the beginning. The climate, everything according to the bible would have been ideal and everybody knows that in the right conditions, everything can grow a lot bigger...humans are no exception. But conditions have altered dramatically in the world, particularly after the worldwide flood. There have also been found giant plants, lobsters and crayfish as big as human beings! There was a six foot beaver discovered. All these things of the past which we've been told have evolved, rather they appear to be bigger and better than what we are today...

Unfortunately the Smithsonian institute has managed to for the most part, cover up and hide many of these findings for the obvious reasons.

During world war II, the United States forces based in the Aleutian Islands wanted to develop an airstrip. They brought bulldozers in to level mounds in the proposed area. When the bulldozers broke into these mounds, they unearthed huge skeletons with huge skulls. Realising the archeological significance, they called in the Scientists from the Smithsonian Institute who cast a veil of secrecy over the whole operation, removing startling evidences of giant humans existing in a past era. The fossils were taken away by the same scientists covertly and have been either destroyed or stored by and possibly at the same institute. A letter from an observer at the site which broke some sort of code of silence says that if these discoveries were made public, they would have to to re-write all the textbooks about man's past.

Jonathan Gray, a New Zealand based explorer said that there are skeletons in graves in some pacific islands which are 12 feet or more long. But cultural taboos prevent there being disinterred.

There are more all over the world. Ron Wyatt discovered some in Turkey. Approximately 18 feet long. The skull/jawbone was so huge that you could fit the size of a human head today inside it.

It is interesting to note that the bible says "there were giants in those days"....

It is tragic that the "powers that be" in this world suppress, distort, and even destroy any information/evidence that might contradict their beliefs. They literally cannot afford to allow this material to become widely known.

What a pity that these things, which should be available to all of us,(part of the history of all human beings) should instead, be privvy to only a select few pulling the strings behind the scenes.