News you won't see in controlled mainstream media.

Can I ask how Elvis is deceiving himself, SoSick? What he has said sounds sensible and tolerant to me.

If you phrase it in such a way, then I am seeking God too. I don't expect to find a personification. I think the ultimate nature of reality goes beyond that. I don't actually know what I am looking for, and I don't think I'll ever stop looking because I'm never going to be arrogant enough to think that I have found all the answers. I feel that spiritual wisdom can be gained from many sources, which is why I've been talking about such a variety of them here.

I would not discount anything you have said, or think it ridiculous. I think you have had some spiritual experiences that have affected you profoundly, which is why I asked you about them. It's interesting how so many people will believe these kinds of things happened thousands of years ago in the Bible, and yet laugh that anything like them could happen today. If Jesus were around now? He'd end up in a psych ward for sure. It's a sorry state of affairs.

What you say about overcoming various traits in our characters so that we can come closer to the truth, sounds quite Buddhist. I think I'll go meditate on that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Linda.

That comment doesn't make any sense. Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld. You cannot have faith in something you don't believe. You can't believe in something that has not demonstrated to you that it is the truth. I found the answers to the questions that I posted through diligent study of the bible, and the world that I live in. Buddhism's answers to such questions were rather inconsequential, they don't believe in a "God" so to speak. Since I believe that all of this was put into motion for a reason, and by someone (though my study of science/evolution) the answers of buddhism and the concept of reincarnation and nirvana don't fit. I'm not intolerant of Buddhists, I'm kind to everyone, just like I have been kind to people here. But I respectively believe that concept to be an "untruth", not truth in a different outfit. I think the difference is I have the ability to quite thoroughly explain why, whereas other people take a "all roads lead to the same place" approach, which IMO, for some is just a copout to avoid reponsibility. If you don't know they truth, you can't be held responsible for not following it.

There is a god, or there isn't. The bible is his word or it isn't. Evolution is true or it isn't. In the end, only one person is going to be right. I think many are confusing intellectual argument (perhaps because some have lost their temper) with intolerance.

In regard to self-deception, I did not mean Elvis in particular but people in general with respect to beliefs of all sorts. It likewise applies even to myself in regard to many things some I have to encounter I'm sure, but at least I am aware of it. I rarely take any thing at face value and am not easy to convince about anything I believe otherwise about already. However, I evaluate my own beliefs and how strongly they are proven in a given area before I propose them as fact to others for that very reason.

Evolution and all the things proposed here in favor of it provides an excellent example of that. Evolution is an area that I have never studied in any real depth. Do you know why? Because the theory of evolution is exactly that, a theory... reams and reams of theory with no real facts. The greatest error which caused me to even stop wondering about it years ago is the 'assumption' that dating methods are valid, exactly as Russ has mentioned. Certain things are 'assumed' to be a certain age and all other dating is done in comparison to those assumptions. This is not science. It's assumption. There is nothing valid to bother studying here beyond those reams and reams of assumed theory though I do enjoy archeology very much when historical artifacts are found and published.

In regard to God, it's highly unlikely he will ever fit into the boxes we shape for him especially when superstition enters the picture. Many religions are very very superstitious, but athiests and non-believers tend to be some of the most superstitious people I have ever met, funny enough.

In regard to Jesus, many, but not all, Christians claim to know him personally. I have asked many, because of my experiences, and likewise have found many. I have never met a muslim, buddhist or hindu or anything beyond an indian shaman that could claim he knew his god. In the case of indian shamans they are well aware that their gods are nothing more than 'spirits' and some even demonic.

My writing may sound buddhist to you but actually it is quite Christian. Based on the bibical idea that people suffer from the lack of (real) knowledge and many are blind to the truth (because of lies they 'want' to believe).

"That comment doesn't make any sense. Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld. You cannot have faith in something you don't believe. You can't believe in something that has not demonstrated to you that it is the truth. I found the answers to the questions that I posted through diligent study of the bible, and the world that I live in."

One definition of faith is "firm belief in something for which there is no proof "

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/faith

I am not sure who you are quoting there, but the bible is quite clear that God wants us to know him. In the NT somewhere it even states specifically... we know our God.

Christianity is not a religion of blind faith in God and if you learned that in a church you might want to seek a different one.

Faith is however often required in the context of.. have faith, God will work this out, or have faith and leave it in God's hands.

It's clear how Christian you are SoSick. It's just that you said, "Each and every one of us, in order to move forward and make progress, must first acknowledge our mistakes and ignorant beliefs and desires that bind us to that self-deception and likewise, blind us to truth." It's losing the self-deception part that sounded Buddhist to me. I know that was not in your mind, but I think it shows that elements of truth can be found from many different sources.

I had to laugh when I read that looking for the truth from many different angles must mean I'm on a cop-out. You're still telling me that there is only one truth, and one way to it, and everything else is just plain wrong. You think I don't want to encounter the divine in whatever form it exists? I have been looking for it all my life. My longing for it is so deep that I will never be content if I am not actively searching. I rejected the faith I grew up with, the faith of my parents, the faith that was so strong that I wanted to work within it when I grew up. Because my beliefs had changed. I have moved on. Most people never go through this process and follow the religion they inherit from their families. I'm on a cop-out? Really?

"There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in our phiosophies."

I am a little disturbed by the black-and-white thinking here. If you're not a creationist you must be a fervent evolutionist. You do believe in a god or you don't. Have you considered that there might be some shades in between? Do you think, just because many Buddhists do not believe in a personal god, that they do not believe there is anything divine or spiritual about existence? I think it must be a sad and narrow-minded life for someone to lead who believes that the only truth in the world is what they can absorb through their five senses. When I say "truth" though, I do not necessarily mean one god, or one right way to live. I can go to a wood or a forest and feel the life all around me, and a sense of spirituality, without believing in a perosnal god. I can understand why this would sound offensive to a Christian, and my parents couldn't cope with it the one time I tried to explain to them. And you are welcome to believe anything you want. Just please don't think that people like me are copping out, ducking responsibility, not interested in anything spiritual, etc. I actually think that most people feel they need spirituality in their lives, but they need to find their own way to it, and yes there are many paths they can take. I don't think anyone can know the whole "truth," and certainly no one here, so I would be careful about making judgements about that.

Linda.

"""""Because the theory of evolution is exactly that, a theory... reams and reams of theory with no real facts.""""""

i think the use of the word theory here is not valid, i do not know if evolutionary theory/whatever is true, but calling it a theory as if it has no merit or is not POSSIBLY true or accurate, u would also have to deduce and admit that the faith and evidence theory about ANY bible which the same as evolution theory is relatively unverifiable because of the great time things happened over,

one evolutionist will say but 'HERE IS A VERIFIABLE FACT'

and a creationist will go 'HERE IS A VERIFIABLE FACT' one problem with creationist view is they will likely turn to science to prove something like there was a big flood at noahs time, but then say that dating scientists use is innacurate to measure things to prove their own point about the other guys being wrong!!!. i'm confused but not that confused. using logic to prove faith aint gonna work for anyone, its not logical but then again.. that doesn't make it false or that u r 'wrong.'

c how on a small scale with really good and nice people here, its gets a tiny little heated, and how with big and powerful people on a big scale it gets into full scale wars??? to me its the same thing repeating itself everywhere "i'm right my god, my country , my view"

honestly i just dont see where everyone is arguing over the same thing, it seems people are taking things personally more than just saying 'here is what i think', or what works for me, its like how politicians get onto statistics, there is always one to prove someone's point.

bigger question than who is right here "how the 'HEAVEN do i heal from mercury poisoning'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know, Linda, it seems to me that yours is a very negative approach toward anything Christian. Like many. You search here and there and everywhere for bits of truth, which you do find, but you seem to want to disinclude Christian/Judeo beliefs and call them something else. The bible is a lot older than Buddha or buddhism. I agree that buddhism is interesting, and it seems to be a very peaceful religion also. But you can't find god there (he doesn't exist in buddhism) only enlightenment of sorts. I have buddhist friends. Very nice people, intelligent, industrious, compassionate. I find it odd though that they kneel and pray daily to a scroll, a piece of paper, that they truly believe is sacred and endowed with some sort of power.

I never said you are a cop-out. I have been exactly where you are and it was something I had to go through I guess. But I did realize at a certain point that I was disincluding everything Christian. I never worshipped any other gods, I simply studied those things because spirituality (of all sorts) always interested me.

Quantum physics took a rather unique approach quite a few years ago that interested me a lot. Rather than incessantly trying to prove God, they sought to disprove God. When i speak of God here, I speak of God, the almighty all powerful creator God. Not just little spirits that beckon you to worship them and threaten to hurt you if you don't. Anyway, the result of that is that many scientists became believers, and it was shortly after I began delving into that area that He really showed up in my life. My feeling is that of all things, God will not let himself be disproven. A round about approach but if you really want to know if He exists, maybe try proving that he does not.

I guess the feeling of black and white comes after such an experience as that, and I know what you mean exactly. To me, things are a lot clearer, much more black and white than muddied grey. But it's a good thing for me because prior I had so many questions, so many weird ideas. Simply knowing now that God does truly exist and that he is incredibly awesome, has answered so many questions for me.

I certainly do have many more I'd love to ask him but I am afraid to to ask tell you the truth. I don't want to anger him with insolence. He shows me what he needs to in many different ways. I am also quite sure he knows every question my soul asks. I am happy to live just under the edge of his wing so to speak, and have faith for the rest. The bible is fuill of his promises and in a lot of that we do have to have faith that he is God and will keep his promises, and us. It's important to trust him.

Veggie Juicer,

A quote from my post...

" for some is just a copout to avoid reponsibility"

You seem to be very defensive about a comment that was directed to "some people" If you are not part of that people (the summary of your semi-aggitated post) than it does not pertain to you. No need to get defensive.

SoSick, maybe what I am after is spiritual experiences. You've obviously had some important personal ones. I am sure that I would be willing to change/adjust my belief system if something profound happened to me. So far, nothing much has. When I am feeling better I am going to meditate, and also get more into things like tai chi, working with my energy. I haven't been able to do those things while I've been ill. Maybe that's why I was looking for ghosts too -- wanting that experience. I'm sure that's why I've always been so interested in what my psychic friend says too. She seems to have a connection to something that most of us aren't aware of.

Claythrow, yes it does seem my post was a bit defensive. I guess I just feel very strongly about the importance of having an open mind, whatever a person's beliefs are. There's always the possibility that there is something new to learn, or unlearn. I'm honestly not sure if I've ever met anyone who likes to learn truths from other spiritual paths, who was somehow copping out of . . . responsibility? For what? Maybe they feel, like I did, trapped by one particular belief system. My own experience was that Catholocism was increasingly becoming a smorgasboard of what I didn and didn't believe, and eventually it was clear to me that it didn't work for me anymore. I know quite a few people who are spiritual but are turned off by the idea of religion altogether. Here in the Old World I think a lot of lessons have been learned from the past, there is a bit of a different way of thinking.

It's a shame we don't live in tribes anymore. I could do with a shaman to talk to. The right teacher is supposed to appear when you need him/her/. I've been asking for years LOL.

Linda.

oh yea, and I forgot, it was quite a few years ago... but there I was into quantum physics the speed of light, all of that and I start wondering about astral projection and so I try to go find God with all of that information in hand and... I want to knock on his door... and he ends up knocking on mine instead. Actually he didn't knock just sort of showed up... it was Jesus btw, who was not happy all of with my efforts and showed me I need to quit already, that I was entering dangerous territory... because I was waaaay too filthy to knock on God's door. There was a day in it, a period of about 2 minutes... when I felt an invisible hand on my head and I swear, my entire life flashed before my eyes, all the good things I'd done but lots of bad things, I realized I was such a sinner in the presence of God and I broke down and I wept for about 3 days... I repented I begged forgiveness I do believe I was forgiven, even I was healed that day of some things that had bothered me for years and I was thus saved.

15 years I searched for God. I started when I was 17 or so after reading a darn Don Quixote book, the lucid dreaming stuff. You can actually do that but it's scary as heck and I do not recommend it. God may have spoke to me then, I know he scared the living daylights out of me and I pretty much ran from him for about 10 years after that searching every corner of the library except christianity for something else.

I am not saying certain things in other religions are not valid.There is something real weird about what we actually are, our consciousness, spirit, whatever... it's not really weird actually, it's good but it's not generally as simple and the simple well here I am attitude that most people want to perceive it as.

and i don't really know if every person would have the same experience as I did with my search, but it did happen to me. I do have quite a bit of evidence that God has been speaking to most people I know (little things they tell me) for most of their lives but that they have been ignoring him.. so if he has been speaking to them I'd say chances are good he'll be there if they actually go looking for him. The bible does tell us to seek him.

You can find shamans around the net, but God does not approve of that so beware... it's ok to listen but i wouldn't follow in that direction. Just my two cents about that.. there are lots of (mostly Christian) Indians where I live.

Lots of Indians have given their lives to Jesus btw, many of them do recognize him as the great God by now, they gave up their animism in favor of Jesus for the most part.... so if you want to find one you better get going fast.

Hopefully I even helped one in that direction last week myself.


Jesus is the best most trustworthy teacher. Ask him to teach you about who he is. Just keep asking and he will.

I don't live in the US but yes I'd love to talk to a shaman from an old religion. Thanks for warning me that your God doesn't approve of it but I think I'll make my own mind up there <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Linda.

Oh please. Lets just take the rest a the" Native American "(Penaci ,their real name) ,culture an trash it.

No offense

Linda, theres plenty a good shamans around the world an maybe a couple a good ones in the UK.
Y'all might wanna read Alice Walker's experience with a ayahuasca shaman., can't quite remember the name a that there book but it's real inneresting .

They are an interesting bunch.

Well if you get into trouble with it don't ever forget that Jesus saves.

Moses invests

Linda et al, you are all getting a little bit boring. Give it a rest.
Perhaps the antidepressants may work for you. Hope so.

If it weren't for the fact that he continues to show up to this day telling me stuff even I would wonder if it wasn't all my imagination.

But like... he warned me about 9/11 a few weeks before it happened, he said stay close to home, showed me the towers, a big commercial airliner... he told us to move from our last location, asked what exactly we desired in a new home which is why we came here... he said the other place would be flooded, a big storm went through there 15 months later and flooded houses up to the second story windows, we would have lost everything... other stuff, big things, little things too.

Who could ask for a better friend?

Elvis ROFL!!

Thought I'd change my name . . . haven't juiced any veg for a while now, though I'm sure I'll get back to it.

Anon, if you are actually someone on this forum who has chosen to withhold their name, then that was a really low blow.

Firstly, if you are bored by this discussion, go away and don't bother with it.

Secondly, in all the time I've been writing about antidepressants on various forums, and of all the people who disagreed with what I said about them, no one has ever made such a discourteous and disparaging remark.. Congratulations, you've just won the scum of the year title in my books.

I have been off the antidepressant for 15 months. It did not help me. What it did was leave me with permanent sexual dysfunction and overstimulation problems which mean that I cannot work full time, I take earplugs everywhere I go, and I watch TV with sunglasses on and read books with dark acetate covering the pages. I cannot exercise and warm weather makes me sick. Yeah, the drugs really sorted me out, I've got a lot to thank them for.

Thanks for caring though.

There is more than one anonymous poster here. I suggested that people use St. John's Wort instead of taking prescription antidepressants.

Linda,

Now I see where you got confused. My "all roads lead to the same place" comment was directed to people who think that it doesn't matter, not so much because they honestly believe that, but so that they will be relieved of the effort of looking, and the responsibility that comes if you find it.

I'm curious as to what you are looking to accomplish by finding ghosts...and what that will prove to you.

what a discussion this is turning out to be, talking about god always turns into arguments. Here in the UK, i have been on buses and there are so many different cultures,arguing about whos God is the best, its ridiculous.
Linda,dont listen to that stupid person about the AD,s thats bloody cruel!
I believe in God but i still feel detatched cos of my illness and the way i can feel normal one day and great the next, i sort of feel disillusioned and selfish in a way for my need to get
better. I simply dont have time, but i do believe god sent me here to find out to get better. Dawn.

To the most recent anon, from an anon who hasn't posted in this thread yet...

You are fighting a losing battle. When someone insults an anon, just take it in stride. Granted, some anons do get rude and I wish they wouldn't post. But, anons are treated, by a "few" on this forum, as some treat temps in the workplace (second class...treated unkind). I have stuck up for a poster(who at the time thanked me), and later attacked all anons because of one.

Never mind that there were 47 anonymous users online last night when I came on. And never mind that many registered users don't use their real name...some will never be tolerant of anons. I just try not to take it personal anymore.

I wouldn't put much fear into pursuing shamanism. From my vantage point, it's a very natural and even human thing to take interest in. Whether it produces any positive effect (or none at all) is solely dependent upon the individual, however.

For a very brief period I was acquainted with an Apache who partook of peyote for spiritual purposes alongside the guidance of a shaman. The synopsis of the event he told me sounded very very surreal.

The fascination in shamanism for me lies in the act of bestowing various living things, even a flower, with respect and reverence. From a certain perspective these things can be seen as magick - and they are; possessed with a spirit all their own. What's not to revere? I have one single flower upon my terrace which I water daily and it never ceases to fill me with awe when, a single day later it has grown tremendously, or gone from being wilted and dry to vibrant and green after the mere passing of one night! Use whatever word you choose, to me, as simple as it may seem, that's magick.

There are gurus, shamans, et all who can give you this kind of insight, sometimes just from having a conversation from them - and then your whole world becomes one awe-inspiring wonder. But I don't think online can replicate this, it's really very crucial to consult with said individuals in the physical realm

For a very brief period I was acquainted with a wall street stock broker who partook of peyote for spiritual purposes. The synopsis of the event he told me sounded very very surreal also. Talking to his his dead grandparents etc etc etc...

But anyway.. just as a note, in all of the wierd stuff I did seeking God because of books I read, people I met with other spiritual beliefs, it's important to note that I was actually seeking God with my rather askew worldly knowledge and lots of other weird stuff simply happened along the way. I wanted to know if the God I had learned about as a child in sunday school, was the real one and only God.

And it seems, no matter where i went what i did this force with a voice and power kept showing up in some form or another to stop me from going certain directions, with the grand events I described above pretty much as a climax thus far. At the point that that happened I knew God existed, had had no doubt whatsoever since the age of 17-18, but I was wary of Jesus, did not feel I knew him, and I needed to find God and ask him and get a direct answer. I felt a very deep burning need to do that and I guess I did get my answer. I sincerely felt I was headed to hell and I needed him.

Maybe it because he is my God as you say, but I have more than just a funny feeling he is the God of all gods, and all living things, our creator God. I know for sure he is the God of the bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It took years, a few, for me to truly trust him but he has kept me and led me and sheltered me from harm for so long now that I would be seriously foolish to doubt him. I worry about very little these days... if trouble is coming he lets us know... if we need money it arrives. We have never been hungry, we have never been homeless. Things go pretty well. We live humbly pretty much middle class, life is good.

I look back at all of the strange beliefs I held about God and life in general till the day Jesus showed up bigtime in my life, and I truly think I was half insane, a good portion of that from my education and the rest from beliefs instilled in me growing up in a superstitious american catholic family. Knowing Jesus has given my life clarity and direction, even in an eternal sense. There is nothing more humbling yet uplifting to know that there truly is a mighty God who cares about me, and is watching out for me and my loved ones. In our personal lives, to love one another, to be good to our neighbors, to care about each other is of utmost importance.

Wars may happen, floods may come but there is a reason for all of it that only God knows. I would never question him concerning those things because I trust him, I went through much those first few years but we had to go there to get here, I am well aware of that now. Sometimes he has to knock down what we have built in order to rebuild things according to his plan for our lives, which btw, is always the best plan and most of us would never conceive it on our own given our own devices and askew worldy knowledge in a world that he knows much better than us.

Just adding my two cents about searching for "it" the answer to life...

I grew up not knowing God, but always believing there was a God, just wasnt' sure what Easter and Christmas were really all about.

I also read the "Don" books, tried the mushrooms and psychidelic drugs to "get to a spiritual experience." I also tried: Tarot cards, crystals, psychics, palm reading, meditation and probably just about every drug out there...as well as self-help books, seminars, etc.

The interesting thing about all of these things is that none of them worked. I even worked for the seminar place because I believed in it so much and had such a positive experience, however, it just seemed like it always came up short and relied on other people and they always were human, so at some point I got disappointed in them and myself because I always came up short too, could never keep up the "positive thinking".

One day I said to myself, hmm, I am now working for the company I thought had the "it" factor, tried the things in the books, tried the drugs, tried the cards, the crystals, etc. and ya know, none of it lasts. They all had a point to where they failed or I failed. I said to myself, you know there are people out there that are happy and I want to know how they do it, what do they have that I don't? At that point, I said to myself "I know the answer is out there, I'll know it when I see it."

Not long after I ended up getting involved in a multi-level marketing company and it was a disaster, but they talked about God a lot. I got used to it and started to think about God a lot. Then I had this old employer that I stole customers from and he wouldn't stop harassing me, I was planning his murder to get him off my back because he wouldn't stop calling me and writing me (his family too wrote me and called me). It was awful.

I met this guy at the ML company and told him my story and he said I needed to pray to Jesus and ask him to forgive me for stealing the customers and to help me with this situation. I had NO idea what I was doing, but nothing else would get rid of this guy, so I went home that night and did what he said. I never heard from this guy or his family again. THAT got my attention. Then I noticed I was feeling so empty and no direction and was a complete loss as to how to get my life together. 5 months later, I asked God to deliver me from drug addiction, the moment I asked for help it disappeared, I had tried EVERYTHING...AA, CA, NA, always went back to the drugs. Got invited to a Christmas Eve service at a non-denominational church, everyone there was so nice, I had never heard the story of Jesus before in my life. It seemed to make sense. I wanted to go back the next day so bad to get that peaceful feeling again, but they were serving the needy, so I went on 12/26. I really don't remember the message, but I turned to my ex-boyfriend and said "I have tried everything else and have nothing to lose" so I went down to the altar and did the sinners prayer. 5 days later I was delivered from cigarettes, 3 months later alcohol. That was Dec 1994/Mar 1995.

Since then I have story after story of how my life was turned around, how I met my husband, got the jobs that I have, the direction, the knowledge, the peace, the love, the list goes on (just like SoSick). Things I had been looking for, for years were now mine. I give it all I have, and He gives me all in return. I have never been disappointed in this decision, can't say that about the other things I tried.

My eyes were opened as soon as I asked the Lord into my life, Suddenly the Bible made sense to me. It was like a veil was lifted off of my eyes. I don't pretend that my life has been perfect, but I will say this, since I asked the Lord into my heart, my life has gone right. When there are wrongs, I go to the Word and I get it corrected. It does take work to live right, but you can get up every day knowing you are following the truth and knowing where you'll be at the end of your life and you can KNOW PEACE.

As I stated about a week ago, asking the God into your life is not a MENTAL decision, it's a HEART decision. You have to trust that the Lord will take care of you and will not give you or ask of you anything that will hurt you. It's faith in HIM. It's not blind faith, because if you read the Bible, REALLY read it and REALLY ask God to reveal himself to you, you won't be sorry and He will reveal Himself. He says to prove Him, but you gotta ask. He's always a gentleman, we have our free will and He respects that because He wants your love because you want to, not because you feel obligated. Once you read the Word, you cannot help but see His love for you. Read the book of John, the love chapter. Ask God to reveal himself to you.

Gabriella

Thanks Dawn and Pwcca. I do wish I lived in a place where I could talk to a Native American with genuine old beliefs, or even an Australian aborigine. I'd love to hear stories about the dreamtime. I've lived here for 13 years (UK) and just haven't come across someone who could help me in a spiritual way, though I've seen plenty of people doing funny stuff in Glastonbury LOL. You can buy any kinds of crystals, herbs, magic books etc there, but yes it is all window dressing if a deeper meaning is not there for you. They are all aids along the way to the truth, they are not the truth in themselves. Same as candles, incense, music, anything else that could be part of a ritual.

I know that a lot of people here would tell me I need to find God, that is what is lacking in my life. I'd expect to hear that here. It isn't what I am after, not the Christian version of God and not the Bible. I respect the messages in there and I respect people's choice to accept it as their way of life; if you are a true Christian then you will be a loving, caring, non-violent person and that can only be a good thing. But it isn't the way for me.

I have never been attracted to psychedelic drugs as part of the spiritual journey. I think a lot of people in the 60s made that mistake, that if you just take one of those drugs it will remove you from reality and you will learn something deep. I think it's important to bear in mind that aboriginal cultures who use drugs as part of rituals usually do it after long preparation. They know what they are looking for, and it is going to be framed in a spiritual context for them. They are going on a vision quest, or seeking their spirit guide, or some such thing. Anyone who dives into that world without preparation or knowing what they seek is liable to start drowining in my opinion. It can also become just a form of escapism.

What am I looking for, in looking for ghosts? I don't know. An experience of something out of the ordinary I guess, that I would love to understand. I think it's also something very worthy of scientific research, though unfortunately it gets lumped into the general category of the "paranormal" along with crop circles and UFOs, and 99% of serious scientists would never associate themselves with it for fear of losing their reputations. There are definitely things going on there that don't link up with the laws of physics as we understand them, and it would be fascinating to learn. I'd also like to learn about the phenomena from a mystic or psychic point of view but people who could teach me seem to be in short supply here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Linda.

Hi SoSick. Thanks for your feedback and insight into your own personal perspective. Could I please ask that you not misquote me in future posts though? I'll make certain I never do it when we're discussing. I know we all just want to get our own individual points across and that ultimately we all respect one another's viewpoints, however different. Thanks so much!

Blessed be.

On the topic of illegal narcotics taken for the purpose of recreation I can speak only against these acts - these pursuits will never bring spiritual attunement. Taking drugs sanctioned by the government for tribes' shamanic and religious purposes is an entirely different story however. The trouble with laymen interested in following spiritual pursuits, be they witchcraft, such as in my faith, or shamanism, etc., is that they absolutely demand a mentor. You won't find what you're looking for if you want quick results or think the answer is lying in some new age bookstore. It can take years of questing to find what one hopes to attain, just as in SoSick's example above, it has taken her years of questing to find her god.

Hey Pwcca,

Not a misquote, I actually knew a broker quite a few years ago who did exactly that. Or maybe he was a Dun & Bradstreet accountant, I forget it was so long ago. One or the other but that was part of his experience, he had lots of other stories about it. He did quite a lot of peyote, he used to keep it in the freezer in 1lb bags. He was the roomate of a very good friend of mine.

Met a lot of wall street guys who did drugs of all sorts back then... was never really my idea of fun or enlightment though I am very anti-drugs myself. Learned the hard way by having them pretty much thrown at me in college. Don't like them, I stay away. People do weird stuff on drugs.

It did take me years of 'questing'.. sad isn't it when you realize he was there all the time I simply didn't trust him.

Yeah, I misread your post actually. Sometimes on discussion boards people will quote someone and then change their words around just to be sarcastic. I thought that's what you were doing, now I see that wasn't the case at all.

Anyway, I'm not surprised the person you spoke of never found his "enlightenment" through mass consumption of peyote. That's simply not how it's done. There's a reason drugs of this sort are only legal for shamanic purposes. It's the same reason you don't hand out firearms to children (OK, that may be a bit of an exaggeration but you get my point: if you're a layman, you're playing with fire).

In all of these posts about people trying to find their own individual spiritual .. aspirations .. and innevitably failing, I'm not surprised by a single one. These things don't happen over night and they cannot be treated with whimsical abandonment. It's like saying "I'm going to become a muscle-bound athlete" and then giving up 2 weeks later when you haven't made any visible progress yet. These things take perserverence, dedication and, most importantly, steadfast belief.

An interesting website about religions.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/

I don't know, I haven't gotten the impression that people are inevitably failing.

I think my biggest problem was that I was bombarded by so much interesting yet conflicting information all the time I was terribly confused and never realized it. Secular education throws so much stuff at you and it's pretty much endorsed as 'The Truth, The Facts, 'The Way It Is' but sadly it just isn't so in reality a lot of the time. It takes years for most people to figure that out. Most people in their 20's early thirties I know, and I was the same way, rely on their educations and odd things they've been taught as kids a lot. You're born into a functioning society that functions a certain way and you learn to fit in to survive. But by the time most people reach their 40's they are starting to look around around and say, you know what, this isn't right, that's really messed up.... just a matter of time and life experience.

I have no idea if that guy ever found his 'enlightment'. He was a pretty strange character from the get go. Very insecure and hard to get along with. Really true though, he ate tons of that stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if he's dead to tell you the truth. A number of people I knew in NYC who did drugs have died within the past 10 years or so, in their late 30's or mid 40's.

Jesus said that he was God. If you don't believe his statement then he was either a lunatic or a liar, not a great teacher.

I question the authenticity of that statement attributed to him. I'm sure you don't. There we stand.

I think the underlying problem with Christ for some people is the issue of faith. Anyone who has received their information from mainstream media or textbooks is likely to have a very skewed idea of the Biblical concept of faith.

Faith is the foundation of any beneficial relationship. Without it, you cannot give or receive anything of intended value.


Receive

For example, if you own a shop that repairs toasters, a person who brings a toaster to you would have to believe that you have good intentions and the ability to fix their toaster. If this person did not believe—or have faith—that you had good intentions or the skill necessary, they would not establish a relationship with you (hopefully).

Now, if this potential customer is prudent, they would seek evidence to support the idea that you have good intentions and skill before blindly believing this. Evidence could come in the form of a recommendation from a friend indicating that they had a good experience with you (a "testimony"), for example.


Give

Now switch the roles.

On the other hand, if your toaster was broken, there may be a person downtown running a shop that fixes toasters. It may be that this person is good at fixing toasters and has good intentions. However, it may be that you've heard some bad things about this person indicating that the toasters they fix break within a week, so you might be inclined not to bring your toaster to this person.

In this case, you are unable to receive what they have to offer (assuming they are well intentioned and skillful) because there is a lack of faith on the part of the receiver.


The Lie

Unfortunately, this information you received may be faulty. In fact, it may have been a rumor that had been started by a person that owns a competing toaster shop. So now this becomes a question of who to believe, i.e., what information is credible, and this requires some research.

In concept, this second store owner wants to take the place of the first in that he wants to take your business from them which will displace the original store's business. He is willing to do anything to get it. This is the ante-store, or, the "in-place-of" store because he is trying to displace your relationship with the original.

Many scholars say the well-known Biblical concept of an anti-Christ (against Christ) would better be translated "ante-Christ" which means, in place of. Interestingly, this has been evils' intent since the beginning: To stand in the place of (play the role of) God.

[color:"brown"]"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."[/color]

—2 Thessalonians 2:3-4


See New Age Bible Versions.


Relationship

A relationship with God is no different. He provides ample evidence for His existence and His good intentions towards us. It is my personal experience—and testimony—that this is true.

If we recognize the value of knowing if God exists or not AND we care enough to do the research necessary to determine if it is true, then we will find it ("seek and ye' shall find"). If we don't care if God exists OR if we don't care enough to do any research, then we won't find out and obviously won't have a relationship with Him.

(If we do our research and find this abundant evidence, we can even go so far as to ask God for help in knowing these things. He is gracious to help us in this endeavor because He has a great desire that we succeed. You may just find that amazing things can happen. I may be sharing my personal testimony about this soon.)

Once this evidence is discovered, we (hopefully) will see that God exists and has good intentions towards us and that He has the skill and power necessary to provide us with what He claims. This will lead us to seek more information—and hopefully—a relationship with Him.

So...

Once faith is established between two people, a strong foundation for love is laid (without faith there can be no love), and this can grow into a wonderful and powerful thing.

(There is a mechanism whereby people can "fall in love" with people they don't trust or even like, but this is really akin to fear and is not love at all.)

Again, faith is the foundation of any beneficial relationship, but blind faith is not expected of anyone. God always provides ample evidence to support faith which will be found by those who care enough to look.

Of course, those who don't care enough to look for-or-at the evidence does not really care about the possibility of the existence of God or for having a relationship with Him. Human emotions are modeled to help us understand God in some ways, for example, ask yourself:

How much do you want a relationship with someone who does not care about you?

Of course, in a search for this evidence of God, one will find Christ (if they complete the search) and will examine His claims and the evidence supporting them. Then, one will find that faith in Christ implies a personal recognition of our faults (through the concept of sin) empowering us to realize that that we are imperfect and that we have a need to change ("repent"). Through our research, we will also realize that Christ provides an ability to receive—through faith in Him—the gift of forgiveness and freedom from guilt.

So...

Seeking evidence in God—if completed—results in self examination, personal growth and change, and real freedom and finally, eternal life (see The Sons of God and Biblical Prophecy, Michael Heiser).

My desire for everyone is that they recognize the value of a relationship with God and that they care enough to do the work required to find the evidence that is the foundation for faith that leads to a loving relationship that leads to eternal life in His presence.

The evidence is there for those who care.

Much has been said here about conspiracies. Many don't like to believe in large conspiracies. Neither do I.

I studied this subject for many years and discovered the most reliable way to actually see mother-of-all conspiracies in action, and this is through law. Those who continue to perpetrate this enormous fraud have used used law to maneuver their way to their current position.

I found a website that does a good job of explaining this concept from 10,000 feet but I'll give you the punch line now.

In order to make the changes necessary to overthrow the Constitution, Common Law, and other treaties and protective laws, the perpetrators had to privatize everything and place it under a system of perceived law (the color of law) so it would be accepted and enforceable. This "law" is called the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC).

Here is the link. I sincerely hope many will take the opportunity to check it out:

Who Is Running America?


Finally, a Biblical prophecy about the end-time changing of law:

[color:"brown"]"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."[/color]

—Daniel 7:25

I agree with that. Most 'psychological' problems are caused by physical illness. If you have serious problems(such as depression) talk therapy is useless and can't cure you. What makes is even worse, that therapist will tell you that you are healthy, it's all in your head and your 'thought patterns' and unresolved problems are the cause for your pain. This will lower the self esteem of the person and make them feel guilty because they think everything is their fault and they are not capable of managing their life. In addition the thinking of psychology and psychiatry will influence mainstream thinking and make people completely ignore that dangerous chemicals are lowering our quality of life dramatically. Thanks to their ignorance depression will soon be the number 1 disease in the western world and people will continue with talk therapy and gulp down antidepressants while their body and brain is degenerating.

In my opinion mankind would have been much better off without psychology and psychiatry.

Well said. It's an outrage.

Yes I believe that much depression can be cured or alleviated by a healthy diet, fasting and liver cleansing. Many of us are toxic from drugs and environmental toxins from our food, water and air...and the powers that be sure don't seem to give a damn. Here is a recent Mercola site that reveals what OTC drugs can cause depression.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2007/07/09/what-are-those-drugs-doing-to-you.aspx

The mental anxiety that I am going thu while detoxing from this chemo is like going thru a mercury reaction every day....it is simply debilitating...I am so sorry for chemo patients...I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Best love,
Sandi
xoxo

btw, that was me, I didn't realize I was logged out.

Sandi

According to this website there are around 34,000 different Christian groups. They define as Christian anyone who considers themself as being a Christian.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/christ7

Religious beliefs of Christians vary widely.

There are also probably 34,000 different dialects of the English language but only a handful fall within the predominent fold of English speakers.

I would venture a guess that of the 34,000 various Christian denominations, about a dozen fall within the mainstream and as such create the largest percentage. There's a denomination of Christianity which believes their god is dead even, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they're not very popular

Within my area of faith, paganism, there's also a nigh countless number of versions, even within the Western and/or Celtic traditions. Which is why people pointing the finger at Wicca or any other similar belief system need to understand that they're not pointing the finger at any one entity, rather, a multitude of different (sometimes completely different) practices. In fact, I'd say the differences here are larger than the differences between any of the popular variations of Christianity.

Blessed be.

probably about 2-3 dozen actually. I made a list once.

Nondenominational, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Church of Christ, Church of God, Pentecostal, Assemblies of God, Presbyterian, Reformed, Evangelical, Missionary, Methodist, Lutheran, Charismatic, Messianic, Amish, Mennonite, Nazarene, Brethren, Apostolic, Full Gospel, Episcopalean, Weslyan, Seventh Day Adventist, Coptic, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox....

and then basically if you fall well outside of those few main, essentially bible-believing, groups, pretty much the only ones who consider you christian are your own group and you end up fighting about it with everyone else.

Question, Who is Jehovah? (yawheh/Jehovah appears over 7,000 times in the bible. Many translators removed it because they deemed it too holy to be spoken, or they weren't sure of how to pronounce it. (hebrew doesn't use vowels) A very poor reason to make such a huge alteration)


Another question, Can you show me where it says that Jesus is God?

Jesus said that Jehovah is god. The apostles said that Jehovah is God, the entire hebrew scriptures say that Jehovah is God. The one and only god.

JESUS never claimed to be God. Everything he said about himself indicates that he did not consider himself equal to God in any way—not in power, not in knowledge, not in age.

In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior, Jesus the lesser one who was created by God.

Jesus distinguished himself from God. TIME and again, Jesus showed that he was a creature separate from God and that he, Jesus, had a God above him, a God whom he worshiped, a God whom he called “Father.” In prayer to God, that is, the Father, Jesus said, “You, the only true God.” (John 17:3) At John 20:17 he said to Mary Magdalene: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” (RS, Catholic edition) At 2 Corinthians 1:3 the apostle Paul confirms this relationship: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Since Jesus had a God, his Father, he could not at the same time be that God.

The apostle Paul had no reservations about speaking of Jesus and God as distinctly separate: “For us there is one God, the Father, . . . and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 8:6, JB) The apostle shows the distinction when he mentions “the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels.” (1 Timothy 5:21, RS Common Bible) Just as Paul speaks of Jesus and the angels as being distinct from one another in heaven, so too are Jesus and God.

Jesus’ words at John 8:17, 18 are also significant. He states: “In your own Law it is written, ‘The witness of two men is true.’ I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.” Here Jesus shows that he and the Father, that is, Almighty God, must be two distinct entities, for how else could there truly be two witnesses?

Jesus further showed that he was a separate being from God by saying: “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Mark 10:18, JB) So Jesus was saying that no one is as good as God is, not even Jesus himself. God is good in a way that separates him from Jesus.

TIME and again, Jesus made statements such as: “The Son cannot do anything at his own pleasure, he can only do what he sees his Father doing.” (John 5:19, The Holy Bible, by Monsignor R. A. Knox) “I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.” (John 6:38) “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me.” (John 7:16) Is not the sender superior to the one sent?

This relationship is evident in Jesus’ illustration of the vineyard. He likened God, his Father, to the owner of the vineyard, who traveled abroad and left it in the charge of cultivators, who represented the Jewish clergy. When the owner later sent a slave to get some of the fruit of the vineyard, the cultivators beat the slave and sent him away empty-handed. Then the owner sent a second slave, and later a third, both of whom got the same treatment. Finally, the owner said: “I will send my son [Jesus] the beloved. Likely they will respect this one.” But the corrupt cultivators said: “‘This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may become ours.’ With that they threw him outside the vineyard and killed him.” (Luke 20:9-16) Thus Jesus illustrated his own position as one being sent by God to do God’s will, just as a father sends a submissive son.

The followers of Jesus always viewed him as a submissive servant of God, not as God’s equal. They prayed to God about “thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, . . . and signs and wonders are performed through the name of thy holy servant Jesus.”—Acts 4:23, 27, 30, RS, Catholic edition.

God was always superior. At the very outset of Jesus’ ministry, when he came up out of the baptismal water, God’s voice from heaven said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” (Matthew 3:16, 17) Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself? No, God the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead.

Jesus indicated his Father’s superiority when he said: “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor.” (Luke 4:18) Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have.

Jesus made his Father’s superiority clear when the mother of two disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and one at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom. Jesus answered: “As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father,” that is, God. (Matthew 20:23, JB) Had Jesus been Almighty God, those positions would have been his to give. But Jesus could not give them, for they were God’s to give, and Jesus was not God.

Jesus’ own prayers are a powerful example of his inferior position. When Jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) To whom was he praying? To a part of himself? No, he was praying to someone entirely separate, his Father, God, whose will was superior and could be different from his own, the only One able to “remove this cup.”

Then, as he neared death, Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why have you deserted me?” (Mark 15:34, JB) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself or to part of himself? Surely, that cry, “My God,” was not from someone who considered himself to be God. And if Jesus were God, then by whom was he deserted? Himself? That would not make sense. Jesus also said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46) If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?

After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. If he were God, then Habakkuk 1:12 is wrong when it says: “O my God, my Holy One, you do not die.” But the Bible says that Jesus did die and was unconscious in the tomb. And who resurrected Jesus from the dead? If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death would not have paid the ransom price for Adam’s sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death. So it was “God [who] resurrected [Jesus] by loosing the pangs of death.” (Acts 2:24) The superior, God Almighty, raised the lesser, his servant Jesus, from the dead.

Does Jesus’ ability to perform miracles, such as resurrecting people, indicate that he was God? Well, the apostles and the prophets Elijah and Elisha had that power too, but that did not make them more than men. God gave the power to perform miracles to the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles to show that He was backing them. But it did not make any of them part of a plural Godhead.

Another huge point is that Jesus had limited knowledge.

When Jesus gave his prophecy about the end of this system of things, he stated: “But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32, RS, Catholic edition) Had Jesus been the equal Son part of a Godhead, he would have known what the Father knows. But Jesus did not know, for he was not equal to God.

Similarly, we read at Hebrews 5:8 that Jesus “learned obedience from the things he suffered.” Can we imagine that God had to learn anything? No, but Jesus did, for he did not know everything that God knew. And he had to learn something that God never needs to learn—obedience. God never has to obey anyone.

The difference between what God knows and what Christ knows also existed when Jesus was resurrected to heaven to be with God. Note the first words of the last book of the Bible: “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him.” (Revelation 1:1, RS, Catholic edition) If Jesus himself were part of a Godhead, would he have to be given a revelation by another part of the Godhead—God? Surely he would have known all about it, for God knew. But Jesus did not know, for he was not God.

Jesus Continues Subordinate

IN HIS prehuman existence, and also when he was on earth, Jesus was subordinate to God. After his resurrection, he continues to be in a subordinate, secondary position.

Speaking of the resurrection of Jesus, Peter and those with him told the Jewish Sanhedrin: “God exalted this one [Jesus] . . . to his right hand.” (Acts 5:31) Paul said: “God exalted him to a superior position.” (Philippians 2:9) If Jesus had been God, how could Jesus have been exalted, that is, raised to a higher position than he had previously enjoyed? He would already have been an exalted part of the Trinity. If, before his exaltation, Jesus had been equal to God, exalting him any further would have made him superior to God.

Paul also said that Christ entered “heaven itself, so that he could appear in the actual presence of God on our behalf.” (Hebrews 9:24, JB) If you appear in someone else’s presence, how can you be that person? You cannot. You must be different and separate.

Similarly, just before being stoned to death, the martyr Stephen “gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” (Acts 7:55) Clearly, he saw two separate individuals—but no holy spirit, no Trinity Godhead.

In the account at Revelation 4:8 to 5:7, God is shown seated on his heavenly throne, but Jesus is not. He has to approach God to take a scroll from God’s right hand. This shows that in heaven Jesus is not God but is separate from him.

In agreement with the foregoing, the Bulletin of the John Rylands Library in Manchester, England, states: “In his post-resurrection heavenly life, Jesus is portrayed as retaining a personal individuality every bit as distinct and separate from the person of God as was his in his life on earth as the terrestrial Jesus. Alongside God and compared with God, he appears, indeed, as yet another heavenly being in God’s heavenly court, just as the angels were—though as God’s Son, he stands in a different category, and ranks far above them.”—Compare Philippians 2:11.

The Bulletin also says: “What, however, is said of his life and functions as the celestial Christ neither means nor implies that in divine status he stands on a par with God himself and is fully God. On the contrary, in the New Testament picture of his heavenly person and ministry we behold a figure both separate from and subordinate to God.”

In the everlasting future in heaven, Jesus will continue to be a separate, subordinate servant of God. The Bible expresses it this way: “After that will come the end, when he [Jesus in heaven] will hand over the kingdom to God the Father . . . Then the Son himself will be subjected to the One who has subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.”—1 Corinthians 15:24, 28, NJB.

Jesus Never Claimed to Be God

THE Bible’s position is clear. Not only is Almighty God, Jehovah, a personality separate from Jesus but He is at all times his superior. Jesus is always presented as separate and lesser, a humble servant of God. That is why the Bible plainly says that “the head of the Christ is God” in the same way that “the head of every man is the Christ.” (1 Corinthians 11:3) And this is why Jesus himself said: “The Father is greater than I.”—John 14:28, RS, Catholic edition.

The fact is that Jesus is not God and never claimed to be. This is being recognized by an increasing number of scholars. As the Rylands Bulletin states: “The fact has to be faced that New Testament research over, say, the last thirty or forty years has been leading an increasing number of reputable New Testament scholars to the conclusion that Jesus . . . certainly never believed himself to be God.”

The Bulletin also says of first-century Christians: “When, therefore, they assigned [Jesus] such honorific titles as Christ, Son of man, Son of God and Lord, these were ways of saying not that he was God, but that he did God’s work.”

Thus, even some religious scholars admit that the idea of Jesus’ being God opposes the entire testimony of the Bible. There, God is always the superior, and Jesus is the subordinate servant. AT MATTHEW 4:1, Jesus is spoken of as being “tempted by the Devil.” After showing Jesus “all the kingdoms of the world and their glory,” Satan said: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.” (Matthew 4:8, 9) Satan was trying to cause Jesus to be disloyal to God.

But what test of loyalty would that be if Jesus were God? Could God rebel against himself? No, but angels and humans could rebel against God and did. The temptation of Jesus would make sense only if he was, not God, but a separate individual who had his own free will, one who could have been disloyal had he chosen to be, such as an angel or a human.

On the other hand, it is unimaginable that God could sin and be disloyal to himself. “Perfect is his activity . . . A God of faithfulness, . . . righteous and upright is he.” (Deuteronomy 32:4) So if Jesus had been God, he could not have been tempted.—James 1:13.

Not being God, Jesus could have been disloyal. But he remained faithful, saying: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”—Matthew 4:10.

I saved that for next time I run into the Mary is the mother of God argument.

Needless to say Jesus is the presence of God in my life and without his intercession God would, well did I think, have to turn his face away from me and my life for quite some time.

I think the power of God is such that, God himself, who spoke this world into existence, would speak or think us all pretty much to the edges of the universe because of sin, insolence, whatever, call it what you will... whereas Jesus, not having quite the full power of God almighty, can intercede for us on our behalf with God. But if Jesus is just an inkling of God, that is opretty awesome.

One wierd experience I had while I was in the throes of first being truly saved for instance that might help explain what i am trying to get at... there was this day and I had this office in the back of my house and I was in there working... and I had the stereo playing. I was in there talking to God who I could not see but had faith that he heard me... I had done that for years and years while working... working alone all by my lonesome and stuff would crop up in my mind so I would just sort of talk to God about it... never really got an answer back then, yet I did this a lot, just talk to God about my problems, dreams, plans what have you, I was working on it... anyway one day I am in my office i am playing some music and I had sort of begun to sense that maybe just maybe the Lord was nearby... certain little things that had gone on in my life recently... and the music I am playing was an old U2 cd, and on that cd was this song titled 'car crash' or something like that but in the song there's this one part where the singer actaully says amidst his other rambling, he says 'car craaassh'.... so I am playing that and it was weird, at the very instant bono sings 'car craaaash' I hear a great big kaboom around the corner and down the street a bit... yep a car crashed and i think a couple people got killed... and there were a few other incidents of that nature during that time also. Just to be safe I threw that cd out, and a good number of others.

I think it's kind of along the lines of what some preachers teach of speaking good things and prosperity into your life... well we have to be careful about doing the reverse also. In the presence of God to us it may become reality if he is close to us. In regard to sin that he wants no part of and doesn't even want to know about.. well I am sure that is why we cannot approach God directly lest we be removed to become part of the ionosphere at his thought of it and that is why Jesus intercedes for us.

Just my personal perspective on that, in plain english.

What do mean when you say you love science Russ? What college ,if any ,did you attend and exactly what science classes, if any, did you take?

An Ah was just sayin how much Ah missed Jill!

betcha anon is a music lover and can't even play a note. I fear to ask if he or she likes art because everyone is an artist of some sort, I do know that..

Smartbomb has spirulina on sale for a great price right here right now:

http://www.smartbomb.com/sn0640.html

thought that would get all your attention if I posted here.

Praise God I was looking for a good price on spirulina, thank you Jesus. Told 'ya he answers all my prayers, just have to ask.

I've been praying to have my head above water financially, and to have a job, for over a year. Well it's prayer in its own way. Hm, God mustn't like me as much as he likes you. Maybe I'll try asking him to sell my eBay listing that ends tonight. Wow, I wish I'd known that all I have to do is ask God for everything I want and if he really loves me he'll give it all to me. He must think Bill Gates and Rupert Murdoch are saints.

Most likely he probably just knows me better than you, a relationship that took us years to develope.

His love and mercy toward you are probably roughly equivalent to your love and mercy toward him.

I have no idea what Bill Gates' and Rupert Murdoch's relationship with God are, maybe they are just really smart and at least don't do things that offend him. hard to say.

If you need a job you might try looking in the newspaper or going back to school to learn a trade that would enable you to sustain a living wage in a field that you enjoy. Obviously if you had that, at minimum, you would not be looking for work for over a year.

If you'd ever read the bible you would know that God is willing to give you anything you ask for, given you have a relationship with him to begin with. Maybe your prayers aren't being answered by 'my God' but another.

Jesus helped me build my business, I would have never even thought of it on my own, he pretty much dumped it my lap one day, even sent someone to finance it early on... told me he would before it happened so I know for sure it was him. It's good too, since it's really his to begin with he watches out for it quite a bit.

Good luck on ebay.

After reading your last comments, SoSick, I can only assume that your present job is processing bullshit.

Indeed, like any business where one deals with people like yourself. Fortunately it's a Christian business so we don't get too much of it, the bulls only show up looking for favors mostly and we don't do favors, it's a good way to get into trouble. We just sort of process the bulls and their crap out the door and in a different direction. they can get their own shovel. I've been handling it that way for almost 8 years now so I'm real sure it's effective.

Hey there Linda Lou,
Bout 10 years ago Ah had to sit maself down an write a list a all the things Ah wanted to change in ma llfe an was lookin for the right kinda person to share it all with an Ah got everthang on that list exceptin the real superficial doo-dads . Yep, God's kinda smart like that .
Anabody can do this if it worked for me.
Thing of it is, Ah had to think real hard about what all it was that Ah REALLY wanted, an be specific . Then Ah asked the Universe to help me . Didn't even have to trouble Jesus for it cuz Ah do respect He might have other more pressin stuff to tend to.
Worked a treat , just be careful what y'all ask for cuz ya just might get it. Common prollem.
So - Sick ,iffen Ah didn't know you was a real nice person, Ah'd say y'all might be in danger a soundin like a so- smug.
So what's this here business y'all are runnin ? Just curious.

SoSick I was being sarcastic . . . if you honestly believe that you get the things you want because you are closer to God than the rest of us, then . . . well, thanks for the amusement anyway. I take it that the people here who have been ill for years aren't very close to him either, including those who profess to be just as fervently Christian as you. You'd better go tell them what they're doing wrong and re-wire their hotlines to God because they seem to be malfunctioning.

Elvis, I agree absolutely. Or at least I used to. If you've got your priorities right, know what you are capable of and set yourself reasonable goals, then you can usually work to achieve them. I've hit a road block these past 3 years the like of which I've never encountered before and I'm pretty amazed at how stuck I've been. Hopefully things will start to improve soon.

SoSick, I do have a trade, I teach high school English. What's stopping me from getting a job? One, when I worked as a teaching assistant last autumn, the damage from the antidepressant withdrawal was still too much and I got sick and had to quit. I've been keeping an eye out for part-time teaching jobs since then, with fewer hours, where I know when I'm in my own classroom I will not have to sit through a lesson of screaming kids. It isn't through lack of trying, the part-time jobs just aren't out there. I looked for stop-gap jobs in shops too but I didn't get interviews, presumably because I am overqualified.

However I keep looking, and trying to think of possibilities, because I feel this is totally in my hands and I need to sort it out. I don't think any amount of praying to any deity is going to do it for me.

Linda.

Right, I know you were being sarcastic. You are always sarcastic regarding this subject.

However, insofar as thinking I am closer to God than others, or telling them that they need to rewire their connections with him.... no... I think you should tell them that because I never said it, in fact I never even thought it. I was speaking to you, not the whole room.

You really do need to learn not to generalize so much, not to take what other people say in response to someone else personally, and to understand that when someone responds to you, they are responding to you. that's a period at the end of the sentence btw.

Why would I say that to anyone else? maybe the wiccan lady if she wanted to pursue it but gee whiz, even Elvis believes in God.

good luck with your sarcasm.

smug as a bug in a rug. I'm a web developer, I build little online businesses from the ground up for christians. Spread the gospel via the net in a round about way, help take care of each other's needs. I do some secular business stuff but those clients are real hard to work with, very dishonest sad to say. I keep a little bit of distance from those, I don't get along real well with that crowd as you can see.

Me, it is a prollem indeed, be careful what you ask for. Thankfully I didn't ask for this business it truly was just dumped in my lap one day. I wasn't even sure I wanted it.

One day though, I went home, my daughter was real little and I had just delivered her to kindergarten, I was just sitting there and no kidding, I hear the Lord say to me.. 'the phone is going to ring in 5 minutes, just say yes to everything'. Well, it rang about 3 and a half minutes later and there is this big bucks friend of mine on the line offering to give me cash for advertising and merchant accounts etc to get this thing off the ground in short time... which really only was on my desk because a previous client (secular of course) hadn't paid for the work. Normally I would have said no outright because i do not like to get involved with other people with my work. I mean my bills were overdue for the month, I had tuition to pay for my daughter, etc.. She only owed me about $2000.00, I think we have made close to $350,000.00 with the one project over several years. And it has spawned others.

A blessing in disguise what can I tell ya. I am at work right now on the internet. This board is quite a distraction I admit.

I was extrapolating . . . if you say that God will give you what you want if you have a good relationship with him, you do not mean that goes for me and me alone.

It also follows that the Christians here who are suffering terribly with their illnesses are not getting what they want/need despite their faith. I'm sorry I got a little bitter in responding to that, but I don't see a lot of logic here. You're telling me that Jesus took time out to help you get a bargain deal, but he is not helping someone like Jinx who is at the end of his tether? Strange indeed are the ways of the Lord eh? You're also telling me that "successful" people like Bill Gates and Rupert Murdoch must be on God's good books, or haven't done anything to anger him etc, hence their continued good fortune? Does that mean the people who died in Hurricane Katrina, for example, were being punished? That those who are impoverished, starving, etc, deserve to be, through divine will? What sort of nursery-school logic is this?

Bottom line, it sounds like you are saying that those of us who do not follow the Christian faith have brought our problems on our own heads. Also we are generally an untrustworthy bunch. Or maybe that's just the business people you work with? I've known very loving, morally upright non-Christian people. I've also known so-called Christians who were, let's say, rather less so.

I really do believe in people getting along with each other, but I think religion more often than not stands as a barrier to this.

Gravity is also referred to as a theory , so sick as is relativity. That does'nt mean they are not established facts.
You cite professor Russ in your conclusion that carbon and other types of dating methods are inaccurate . If so, how far off are they and why? Were dinosaurs here 5000 years ago. Find a professor of chemistry, genetics, physics, astronomy , biochemistry , biology anthropology etc from MIT, UC Berkeley, Caltech, Stanford, Yale or any top tier university who thinks carbon dating is bogus or even speculative. It explains too much in too many divergent fields of science.

If you go back through yhr generations of people in the bible , you only go back a few thousand years.It is impossible that modern man has only been here a few thousand years.
My genes are so different from Elvis's that we could'nt have arisen from an ancestor 400 yrs ago after the flood

All science is theory, so to speak. The difference between most science and evolution, which is not really science, is that the theories are proven, tested, double blind tested and so on to prove their accuracy. thus science is built, piece by piece, one working theory upon the other so that we can even mention things like relativity and e=mc squared today.

Evolution does not fit into the scientific model at all in this regard. It is theory only with no evidence of proof whatsoever. It actually is not science. It's more like philosophy.

Not sure if these guys are professors but hopefully this will do.

http://evolution-facts.org/Appendix/a05.htm

I am sure I can easily find more if you struggle too much with all this.

Not all scientists have the time or inclination to teach, I will assume you understand that the better half of our most brilliant scientists do not teach but work in private industry. Being a professor is meaningless. Low paying most of the time too compared to the private sector, positions sought after by persons needing some steady income of some sort. Not always true I know, but often.

Teaching, even at the college level, precludes rote learning of known subjects a lot of the time, is often subject to censorship of categories and ideas, and thus is not generally considered condusive to true research, especially in areas that have no basis for a logical sequence of testing of theoretical data upon which to build other scientific models... because no one is really willing to fund 'science' that isn't gong to be profitable somewhere downline on the corporate level.

Let me know if you find a 'professor' with any real interesting research concerning evoltution ok? Not philosophy, science, theory tested and proven to be factual working models. I gave you quite a bit in that link above, you might also check out some of the other pages at that site... I do hope you are good enough to take a few moments to do likewise to prove your own point or at least somewhat justify it even just a little.

If not, I gues I can consider you simply a stuffed shirt on this issue. I would truly like to see you prove me wrong.

Dear, your genes are so similar that, assuming Elvis is truly male, you could have beautiful children together.

heh.

There are not only intermediates between humans and chimps, there are intermediates between all species in the fossil record . Is'nt it a funny coincidence that radioactive dating confirms the evidence found in the fossil record. For example, radioactive decay shows the progression of species leading to the modern horse. Why don't scientists find human remains that are shown to be 100 million years old ?
Archeologists have found fossils between apes and humans that have extremely small brains compared to modern man, even those on herballure forums, and ( not coincidentally ) these fossils are found by scientists to be older than modern man.These intermediates had heavy brows , projecting jaws and other characteristics that show they are intermediate.Scientists can't agree on which are human and which are apes and wherever you put the dividing line, the humans just above and the apes below are more similar to eachother than to modern humans or to apes.
Chimps have 99% genetic identity to humans in functional genes.If you had studied science as you claim , claythrow , you would have compared human dna to apes not monkeys. If we were too similar to apes genetically we could breed with them. At the risk of honking my own horn , I have the reasoning power of a physicist and don't believe things simply because they are told to me.People who believe in organized religion believe things simply because they are told to believe.
One cannot analogize spinning a roullette wheel with evolution . Each spin of a roulette wheel is random and independent of the previous spins. Although mutations , deletions, additions , genes switching chromosomes may be random , some mutations result in selective advantages , and some cause sterility , death , or the origin of a new species that can no longer breed with members of its' former species. Sometimes a change in one allele is enough to prevent an organism from breeding in a species. Mutations are'nt the only factors in evolution . Sometimes members of a species become geographically isolated , change over time, and two species eventually exist from one common species.
Time is highly relevant in terms of why someone should believe that evolution occurred. Taking the extreme case to establish a general rule, I would'nt believe in evolution if scientists claimed that single cells , prokaryotes , first appeared 10000 years ago and through mutation , genetic drift, selection etc , modern man came to be.The earth has been here five billion years.
Life on earth became incresingly complex. Were there any species on earth 100,000,000 years ago with brains anywhere near as large as human brains?
A simple example of mutation and selection is the mutation of bacteria upon administration of antibiotics thus conveying antibiotic resistance . These bacteria are merely single cells ,like some people not mentioning names, so obviously they don't choose to mutate so they won't be killed by antibiotics .Unfortunately , cancer cells have a nasty habit of mutating in response to chemotherapy.Chlorella ( which incidentally is supposed to fight cancer) becomes multicellular in response to predators.Single mutations in plantscan result in new species that can breed with eachother but not with the ancestral species.Insects develop mutations that make them resistant to pesticides.
When you examine the fossil record and find a species thatis transitional between two other species, that transitional species dates to a time between the other two as would be predicted if dating methods are accurate.

The term theory in science means an explanatory framework for data. A theory is explained by natural law, empirically testible and falsifiable.

Then show us the data that fits this framework, and the natural laws, empirically tested, and falsifiable, JIll.

why do I get the impression that you like big words but have no idea what they mean?

Here, by the way, is an easy page by Ken Hovind, written for 6th graders, explaining in simple terms the rationale behind carbon dating:

http://kecirohomeschool.com/carbondating.htm

oops sorry, me there forgot to log in.

You'd have to literally have your fists slammed deeply into your eyeballs to miss all the truly empirical researched evidence available on the internet NOT in favor of evolution.

Search like heck to find me true empirical evidence of it please, I haven't found any yet.

"My genes are so different from Elvis's that we could'nt have arisen from an ancestor 400 yrs ago after the flood "

Huh? The flood was in the year 2102 BCE, which was 4095 years ago.

"If you go back through the generations of people in the bible "

http://www.akhlah.com/history_tradition/torah_timeline.php

sorry Jill, but I need to quote your statement there so that you can look back from perhaps a better educated perspective and see the irrationality and arrogance of your argument.

I am not saying you are arrogant, but your argument, based on things you have learned in school I am sure, is.

I am afraid you'll delete that reply when you figure out what data, empirical, and falsifiable mean, so I captured it if you don't mind.

If you need help, just ask.

i find no significance to the relationship to evolution being true or false, to the conclusion that god is true or false.. only (apparently to some people) the bible being true or false, therefore to me, it's irrelevant. if u believe he's real, he is to you, if not.. then u don't experience it. what u believe u percieve, i think the problem arises trying to convince others of what you percieve, especially out of fear.

"perceive" <<<<<< i also believe that i can't spell "percieve" <<<<< very well.. see me experiencing it ??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

on some level aren't we really all talking about hope in this thread when it comes down to it?

if god and the bible were real, and you were the only person who knew it, and every other single human on earth didn't believed it.. would you rather just let it be, or would there be some satisfaction in going to war.. OBLITERATING everyone on the planet except yourself.. and be the last man/women standing.. and being able to say at the end of the war SEE i was right!!!!!!!! who would there be left to say it to? extreme example.. but to some degree this is happening around the world right now, except noone is winning the war.

SoSick, why don't you reply to some of the specific points that Jill brought up? Like insects developing reistance to pesticides, bacteria developing resistance to antibiotics? How about what I mentioned a long time back -- variations in humans? How come people living at high altitudes in Kenya and Tibet, for example, have developed greater lung capacity and can cope with the rarified air much better than the rest of us? How come people seem to have developed white skin over time as they shifted north -- handy for soaking up some extra sun, weaker here, so that we can make our vitamin D. Or the bodies of people like the Inuit, tending toward stocky with wider nostrils, just perfect for existence in a colder climate? You can look all around at other animals, too, and see them adapting beautifully to all kinds of different climates and conditions. How can you call this a false theory when you can see it with your own eyes?

I agree Benza. I'm fine with people of many different faiths getting along with each other and respecting each other despite differences. The problems come, as they inevitably do, when certain people become so self-righteous that they believe their religion is the only true one, and everyone else is inferior or walking a slow road to hell. This sort of thinking has caused wars from time immemorial and as long as people continue to think this way it won't stop.

Linda.

God's a sadist.

Strange Sosick that you criticize Lindalou and state that she should learn not to generalize so much and then you go and make a statement about the dishonesty of anyone who is secular

''thinking this way' being the problem i totally agree with, i also don't really feel.. against people who are caught up in it though, its how people are.. needing to believe in something.. or they feel out of control... and i for one know its horrible to feel out of control.. having 'reality' turned upside down (mercury). its been shown the best of people who do the worst things (arguing as an example) sometimes truly beleiving they are doing good (in an evidently distorted way in 20/20 hindsight)

i think this thread could just about end with saying that god most probably does exist. i havn't read it all, but it seems that way. it just got into specifics about what version or something??!!!! kinda like saying.. was it a man or a women to an investigator, and everyone saying "there definately was someone, but i don't remember what they looked like, or whether it was male or female"

yes She does exist in all her Glory

Amen and Awomen.

hmmm, you are right about that. But it's been my experience so what else can I tell you. When they know you are a Christian they try to take advantage of you, been my experience time and again. They expect charity from you because you are a Christian. Like I should help them pay their bills but not worrry about mine.

I never experienced that before I was truly a Christian btw, but unfortunately a lot of secular people do not respect Christians, and it's quite evident. So, in that regard I would rather not help them either because chances are good they will use my work to take advantage of other people downline too.

Maybe it's just a response to secular generalization to begin with.

Because all of these, in the presence of those circumstances, may cause insects/animals/humans/whatever to acclimate to their habitats and climates. But, take any one of them out of that environment and a couple generations later the tolerance is gone. That even goes for fair skinned people whose children and grandchildren are not as fair skinned in different climates.

If we stopped using antibuiotics tioday chances are excellent that in 50 years the superviruses that have resulted would be non-existent too. When dentists stop using amalgam, our children will be smarter and healthier. Not evolution, a reversion to the norm.

If you move to Tibet your lung capacity will change as the years go by also. you might suffer at first from living in London pretty much at sea level, but you would acclimate. It's not genetic, it's tolerance and your body's amazing ability to acclimate to new enviironments. If you moved back to London after 20 years in Tibet you would lose that capacity. It''s not even something your children would inherit if they were born in London after you lived in Tibet.

I used to do a lot of swimming, could hold my breath for an amazing long time under water. I've lost that capacity over the years because I don't swim as much anymore.

None of the things you mention involve changes to DNA that could be considered a forward step in some evolutionary process. Pesticides may cause defect mutations however, actually detrimental to DNA, like frogs with 3 legs. Leaves turn red in autumn also as they adjust to less sunlight per day, does that mean that the trees are evolving? Bears fail to go into hibernation in warm winters, does that mean that they are evolving? If you take an inuit family and send them to Florida their grandkids would mix into the rest of the general population without a hitch, moostly due to the fact that they are now breeding outside of their previous rather small gene pool, otherwise known as marrying your cousin.. There are lots of short and stocky people in New Hampshire too. They climb lots of hills. Even where I live in the mountains, lots of really short people. There grandparents were not like that. But the ones who grew up here often are. Something to do with less oxygen perhaps, gravity, who knows. But chances are excellent they all carry varied genes that will revert back to tall children in a different environment. Short people have been known to have really tall children, and vice versa. So, no evidence of evolution of any kind there, sorry.

I think a lot of the strange skeletons they find, there really aren't that many, probably just inbred tribes, mutations, detrimental environment or otherwise, whatever. Given a population of 6 billion, if there were any evidence available of true important DNA changes in a given population, surely they would have found it by now. But we still only have different races to look at... any of which can interbreed, mix up the gene pool awith something far off instead of something nearby, and come out with a quite normal human being that fits into their current environment quite well and grows up there acclimating to survive in it.

When monkeys lose their tails, we might be able to seriously discuss this.

I found this really weird video here a while back:

Super creepy beast in cage

I doubt it's evolution, but sure is one heck of a mutation. Don't know if it's real or not. I wonder what mommy looked like.

LOL Elvis!!!!! I just love your posts.

If we all arose from a few common ancestors from the time of the flood 4000 years ago, humans woud not have as much genetic diversity. All of my ancestors are from northern Europe . If you analyze my DNA and compare it to the DNA of a black African, you will find that our ancestors have not bred together for far longer than 4000 years , or 75,000 years for that matter.

It's difficult to argue with idiots so- sick . How far did you get in school? Where did you go to college if anywhere and what did you study?Albert Einstein was on the faculty at Caltech. Robert Oppenheimer ( atomic bomb ) wes on the faculty of my alma mater UC Berkeley . Most nobel prize winning scientists are on university faculties.
When mathematical or scientific discoveries are made , it's often not known for centuries what if any practical or lucrative purpose they might serve. Did Newton forsee the vast applications of calculus? Many people with stratospheric IQs are on university faculties.

Evolution is a fact and there is a mountain of evidence prove evolution if you chose to learn aout it and if you could understand the science.

I've never heard of these morons . They don't even have door prizes much less nobel prizes.

Yes, that mountain of evidence. One branch of science links to another, to another, to another. If you really are going to stand firm in your belief that the world is a few thousand years old and everything was created just the way it is, you have to reject virtually everything we've learned about the Earth and the universe. I wouldn't have thought I'd actually have to spell this out, that it should be obvious to anyone who has been through school.

Genetics, mitochondrial testing, DNA -- all wrong.

Carbon/radioactive decay dating -- all wrong.

Fossils of all manner of creatures, preserved in strata; fish in rocks at the tops of mountains, animals in rocks at the bottom of the sea -- all a hoax.

Plate tectonics and the ways it is measured -- the magnetic signatures in rocks, the movements of the earth today, subduction zones, mid-ocean rifts, the way some continents seem to fit together like puzzle pieces, fossil evidence that some creatures used to exist on one land mass that broke up and have since been evolving in isolation -- all wrong, all a hoax.

Light reaching us from galaxies that took billions of years to make it here -- wrong, unless you believe that light travels faster than light speed, or the astronomers are hoaxing us all too

The cosmic microwave background radiation -- wrong too

I could go on and on. People who know a lot more than me could list hundreds of things here and explain them in detail.

Seems to me, you've really got to put the blinkers on to throw all this into the bucket and deny any of it is real.

I sgree with Linda that the evidence for evolution is multidiciplinary.
When bacteria are exposed to antibiotics , often only mutant forms survive and the original strain may become extinct as you know from your genetics studies with Dr Watson.Hence a new species arises . Over 99% of the species on earth have become extinct. If you had any science education you'd know antibiotics are for bacteria not viruses.
What point are you trying to make when you say that short people can have tall children? Are you trying to suggest that height is not genetically determined?Can two blue eyed people have a brown eyed child? I am a fair skinned , blond white woman whose ancestors were from Northern Europe If I had a child with a Swede with similar features whose ancestors were from Sweden , could we have a brown eyed , black child?If you compare my DNA to that of a black African, you will see that our ancestors could not have bred together 75,000 years ago long before the flood .Do you not believe in DNA?
There are plenty of examples of mutations leading to two species where one formerly existed . Look it up if you can understand the science.Since who agree that genes can mutate and these mutations can change phenotypes, why is it hard to believe that the sum of these mutations , selections , reproductive isolation could result is species as different as eg horses and rats arising from common ancestors .
You said you would believe in evolution when monkeys lose their tails . As explained above, those types of changes typically take a long time.Sometimes only one mutation can produce two groups that can no longer breed with eachother and thus speciation has occurred.
Why is it that when archeologists discover a species intermediate between two others, dating methods show that species arose at the time expected given its' morphology. Why do the intermediates between humans and apes date to a time before modern man?

Mutations by insects to avoid being killed by pesticides are not harmful to the insects,they are adaptive. These mutations are inherited and this is evidence of evolution, inherited changes in DNA.

Right adaptive. But not evolutionary. It hasn't caused them to evolve into a different species. There isn't any proof of anything except detrimental changes in DNA due to pesticides. Increased tolerance to them is not neccessarily due to DNA changes. By the way, increased tolerance, not total tolerance, ever. Any pesticide will always still kill the bug it was intended for, sometimes you simply have to use a bit more than usual.

Why aren't the Inuit a fair skinned people? Have they not lived in the arctic as long as the Norwegians have lived in Norway?

My professors thought I had an excellent understanding of anthropology, chemistry, physics , astronomy , calculus , biochemistry etc. I have given evidence of evolution from many fields including astronomy and reccomended you look at talkorigens.com. You are the one that has no knowledge of the above mentioned fields and probably never went to college.
Who is Ken Hovind? What are his credentials?Is he a grad of internet U?
It's absurd to think that the government has any interest in feeding us false information on astrophysics, genetics , anthropology,chemistry etc or that they would be able to do so. As far as I know , George Bush, Bill Clinton , Ronald Regan etc don't know or care about physical anthropology or the sciences on which it depends.

Who cares what your professors thought. They were only professors trying to make a lliving. Absoulutely meaningless. Lots of college professors have never actually even worked in private industry in the fields they teach in. They got a masters degree to teach at the college level and all they have ever done is teach what they teach.

Was it a good community college you went to at least? There is nothing at this url - talkorigens.com

Maybe you should try a bit of the internet u yourself.

Why aren't the Inuit a fair skinned people? Have they not lived in the arctic as long as the Norwegians have lived in Norway?

Mutations are not beneficial; they're random. These mutations produce changes and are inherited . All organisms have tha same base pairs adenine guanine etc . You change only one percent of our functional DNA not exons, and you get a chimp and you change more and you get a rat.If you agree that mutations occur that can change an organism it should be reasonable that the changes would be huge over say 100,000,000 years leading to the biodiversity seen today

What were your exceptionally high SAT scores So-sick and where did you study quantum mechanics?

talkorigens.com does not work, whatever is at talkorigins.com wants to download an awful lot of something through my firewall so I will not be going there. Nice way to get a trojan.

The internet u might be able to help them make their website user friendly.

All of that is real good in theory Jill but the problem is that there isn't any empirical evidence of it. There is lots pf evidence to refute it though... because it's just an idea. that is the problem with unproven theory, it raises lots of arguments because it cannot stand on it's own.

All of the other things you mention are simply adaptation to habitat. That. is a well known fact, National geographic writes simple articles about stuff like that all the time. but it is not evoultion. Adaptation and evolution are two different things.

Why are the Inuit not a fair skinned people Jill?

Let me give you a few choices:

1 - They have not lived in the arctic long for as long as the Swedes have lived in Sweden.

2 - There is more sunlight in the Arctic than there is in Sweden.

3 - They are different family with different ancestors and genes.

Elvis recently evolved into a red chinese carp.What more proof does one need?

What does quantum mechanics have to do with evolution?

I forget SAT scores, pretty high,, otherwise I would never even have been glanced at where I went to college Jill, which is rated sometimes the number 2 engineering school in the USA and sometimes number 3, varies from year to year. On an overall academics list it's usually at number 5 or 6 in a list that Berkeley is lucky to make the mid 20's on.

smarty pants, you are so competitive... but Berkeley is not so hot, they just tell you that because you are going there and they want you to pay them again next year. And you are dumb enough to believe it.

get real. You don't stand a chance in the real world once you leave the pearly guarded gates of Berkley. Real competition is going to eat you alive.

But I guess that's why you stay in school. You are too ignorant to even see that you are not very smart. Berkeley this and Berkeley that... I am going to law school... I studied (pre) med)... whoopie who cares, Jill. You can barely formulate an original idea on your own so what's the point. You surely will get creamed in the real world with that attitude though.

Too bad no one ever taught you to think so that all the tidbits you've gleaned in the past 6 years would be truly useful.

A year in charm school would be in line also. You'll need it for a corporate job. Your smarty pants oooh I'm from Berkeley attitude right now might get you a job as a clerk in some local Berkeley county office. if you're lucky.

Ken Hovind is a man who knows how to think. His credentials are his work and his reknown for it, which surely are far greater than yours.

Lake Victoria in Africa has been f...TED ENOUGH TO PRODUCE 300 SPECIES?"

Ken Hovind is a showman who spouts utter nonsense. Jill if you look earlier in this thread you will see a link Russ gave to a video of a lecture of his, some of which I watched with utter amazement and horror, mixed with some good laughs. He does things like show photographic "proof" that trees have been found fossilised upside-down in rock strata, and display cartoons of spoons evolving into forks because it, um, demonstrates how silly the idea of evolution must be. He cites examples from texts but doesn't display the source texts clearly, they flash by very quickly, and he lifts sentences here and there to ridicule without giving the audience the chance to have a good look at their source or context. In short, anyone with half a brain or less might lap it up if they believe this stuff in the first place but I can't see how he would convince anyone else.

SoSick, you haven't said a thing about the list I gave earlier. Creationists need to look at what we've learned about the wider universe, as well as what's happened on earth. How about that light from galaxies that is billions of years old? What is the cosmic microwave background doing out there, waiting to cook our ready-meals? (It's actually only a few degrees above absolute zero). I expect creationists have got their idea that explain away these kinds of things too?

How could 300 species of fish evolve? I don't know but I am sure it's not impossible. It is specious to say that because it took birds longer to evolve somewhere else, that it would be impossible for those fish to evolve more quickly. I would say that one would have to really examine the facts available here, what we do and don't know about the geographic history of the region and how that might have had an effect on the flora and fauna there. I think it really would take experts in the associated fields of geography and biology to work this out. It's easy for a layperson to have a superficial look at what can be seen and make sweeping comments. Are there things we don't understand? Yes, Because we don't understand them, is that proof that evolution is wrong? No.

I read an article on the BBC news site yesterday talking about new things we've learned from fossils of homo erectus, and how we may not be as closely related to them as was thought. Also, they seem to have existed at the same time as homo habilis, so it is unlikely (but not impossible) that one evolved into another. This was one region, so what was happening in another is a mystery yet.

I read articles like this because I enjoy learning about new discoveries. I have to admit I had a laugh too, though, because stuff like this must get creationists fuming. All part of the big conspiracy, right?

anon,
red Chinese carp patterned swing sofa CUSHIONS (Ah'm a stickler ), liked it, too.
But Ah evolved right back. (after passin a few feathers)
(don't mean to raise the bird/fish issue neither)

What list was that, Linda? The one that asks why people in northern climates have fair skin, bliindly ignoring the fact that neither the inuit nor the mongolians nor the eskimos have fair skin? I think I answered everything best I could in 10 minutes Linda.

At any rate, I provided plenty of links to other sources which answer every question you proposed and then some. I really do not have the time or inclination for this argument that your questions with blinders limiting their scope require. It's not possible to answer questions of that nature because they assume things are as you imply they are, which isn't so and I actually have no desire nor the years needed to try to educate you to enable you to see beyond what you believe you know, though Jill might, if she likes or even recognizes the name on your college degree.

The systems of measurement that science uses are all man-made. They are assumptions Linda, based on what we know from living on this tiny rock we call earth. They do not take fully into account what we do not know, because obviously that is impossible. That is a good place for you to start perhaps, because scientists themselves admit that they are just guessing at most of the things you want to propose as fact.

Ken Hovind's 'nonsense' is generated by a nonsensical field of inquiry. You appera to have chosen to disbelieve much of what he says because either 1 - you simply have no desire to think about it or 2 -it's too simple to be believable in your complex mind or 3- You actually did not watch the video and/or are too lazy to read the texts from which he quotes yourself.

Anything that provides a response to a nonsensical subject will seem like nonsense to someone who isn's aware of the context. People once believed the earth was flat as you will recall. They were so sure of this that they attempted to hold the world in bondage to the idea for hundreds of years. That said, it applies to many other things as well, many of which are nonsense and cannot generate anything but a seemingly nonsensical response to someone like your self who desires to perpetuate the idea that the earth is flat or that man is decended from monkeys, as the case may be.

It's a lot like me bothering to reply to you... since anyone with half a brain might lap up what Ken is saying, then Iit should be possible for you to understand what he is saying at least a little bit. It may sound like nonsense to you, but since you have already apparently lapped up the theory of evolution, I don't see where the word 'nonsense' fits into your discussion in the first place. Ken Hovind simply gives you some clues as to the enormous scope of evidence against evolution, and in that he does such an excellent job that even 5th graders can comprehend him. Why you are unable to take a few of the items he has tossed out and actually investigate them is something you need to ask yourself rather than chide others for. Your inability to objectively research is not everyone elses' fault.

Creationists are not the only group that have serious issues with the theories of evolution. but again, your inability to objectively research is not everyone elses' fault though it is interesting that you consistently cite creationists as the only opposing argument to evolution.

Just as a note, before I bow out of this discussion and it's strangely odd assertations of Christian ignorance by the likes of berkeley buttholes wih 5 years of partial real life experience on their plate... evolution is not something I ever normally bother to think about. It is a subject that has been discussed and rediscussed, hashed and rehashed so many thousands of times by so many thousands of people that it is not even truly necessary to begin again since every answer for every question posed as an ideology by evolution propenents is already available to them. The theory of evolution is not useful in my life. it even is not useful to the rest of science. It is does not make my books fall off the shelf, or the house burn down, it does not affect my future, it does not explain the past. It only creates controversy upon controrversy and in that sense is a greater stumbling block.to real knowledge than any other so-called 'scientific theory' I know of. It's controversy, unlike any other branch of science, is never ending because it is not science. Because it cannot be proven it therefore cannot be rationally disproven to the satisfaction of it's proponents, because there are no actual facts to work with. If however, Linda, you take a very good look at every single idea you propose, you will find that none of them even remotely imply evolution in the slightest, but rather, make a fair and quite clear statement as to how little most of us, myself included, truly understand about life on this planet and likewise how awesome, unexplainable, and adaptable life is. And if that is not so as I am sure you are thinking at this moment, then you should not have ever needed to ask the questions in the very first place.

OK we're back to Russ' line of reasoning. He/whoever else has researched this subject much more thoroughly than me and therefore what I am saying is ignorant and wrong. I watched a fair bit of Hovind's video but no, I'm not sitting through two and a half hours of it. You can call that lazy if you want, I call it wanting to make better use of the precious little "me" time I get. I did actually pause the vid and try to read what he had on the overheads and it was impossible. He is a good rhetoritician. However, like you in saying you just don't have the time to educate me, I've got to say I just don't have the time for this insane waffle either. My sister in law is a professor of geology. She wouldn't listen to any of this weirdness for a moment. I've tried to hear something of what people have to say about this, to try to understand where they are coming from, but all I seem to encounter is an attitude of smug satisfaction that they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. So far I don't think I've learned much at all from this and I don't this I'm going to gain anything from continuing to debate it.

Irritability's got the better of me again I think. I haven't been very well the past few days. Just feeling a little exasperated. I have to say it's rich, though, to hear the tables being turned here. The flat-earthers were the ones who didn't want to accept the new ideas. Ditto the creationists, who haven't got beyond the 19th century in that respect. There is something to be said for seeing the truth and bucking the system when many people are blinded to it. But we have to be very careful about what we believe that "truth" to be. Sometimes it really can be the case that the majority of people are right and we are simply mistaken.

mercury bad

god good

debate bad

stop good

That was me Elvis. Was your evolution to a carp an example of increased complexity as a function of time "?
Was your evolution merely an adaptation to your environment as suggested by so-sick or is there a huge difference between your human DNA and your carp DNA such that Elvis the carp could no longer breed with a human female carper like so-sick who is not a carp?

Your post makes no sense unless nonsense is a sense.Where did this come from anway?What do you mean when you say these fish evolved if you don't believe that random mutations , selection occurs? Does'nt a species ' characteristics depend on DNA . Who said these species evolved from one species that existed 13,000 years ago?

Actually UC Berkeley rates in the top five in numerous departments and has had more nobel prize winning scientists on its' faculty than any other school.
I am not a law student . I graduated a top law school and passed the bar several years ago. My law school rejacted most applicants who graduated Stanford , Princeton, Yale , Northwestern and other top schools with good grades and good LSATs.
While Berkeley is'nt rated as high as ten years ago, it's still a very prestigous school based on the ratings of others not the Berkeley faculty

Check out talkorigins.com for fascinating debates about evolution

I dont want to offend anyone but does anyone else think this has turned into a who is the brainiest and most educated thread ? Tracy - Still if your enjoying it what the heck!

My point sosick is that scientific analysis proves that my DNA is too different from that of an African whose ancestors never left Africa for us to be separated by only a couple thousand years.
The reason that the Galapagos finches are different from eachother and from their ancestor is because of random mutations in DNAand selection and geographic isolation.DNA determines morphology.Certain mutations were more adaptive in a given environment and these conferred reproductive fitness.

No, it's just one person insisting that qualifications maketh the man or woman. In some ways yes it helps a lot to be an expert. I also believe that people can acquire knowledge of all kinds outside of universities.

I'm just hanging around while things are interesting to talk about. Takes my mind off feeling rotten.

Linda.

It's irrelevant whether professors work outside their universities though most do .Often the applications for a persons scientific discoveries are years, decades or centuries away but some people are more interested in intellectual stimulation than fancy cars. Most professors have upper -middle class incomes and most are married to a professional with a sustantial income.
Richard Feynman is considered by many to be the smartest person of the tentieth century . He spent his life as a Caltech professor. Several of my law school classmates gave up million dollar a year law firm partnerships to be on the Fed Ct of Appeals at drastically lower pay because they find it more interesting.

Pesticide resistance is due to DNA mutation and natural selection.With enough DNA mutations one species can become two species that can't reproduce together.
You stll havent told me when dinosaurs roamed the earth and whrther humans were present then as depicted the paintings of James Gurney another moronic Berkeley alum.

Do you believe that adaptive changes in skin color are not based on changes in DNA so-sick ? If you believe that changes in DNA cause Africans to be daker than Northern Europeans , how did these changes occur? Were they random mutations or do my DNA strands have minds of their own and decide to change in beneficial ways. and know which base pairs to substitute , delete or whatever ?

Are you suggesting that PhD chemists , biochemists , physicists etc in private industry do not believe in evolution?

A number of them believe in poisoning people with pharmaceutical drugs and vaccinations. These are people who will trade human lives for more money without batting an eyelid. If that's where their qualifications got them then I'm not impressed.

While nothing can be known with 100% certainty (consider Heisenberg's uncertainty principle ) to throw up ones hands and say there is equal proof of evolution and creation is like saying there is equal proof that the earth is flat as there is that it is round

assinwine isn't it?

personally I don't give a flying fart where anyone went to college.

Where is berkeley anyway? Isn't that where the hippies went after woodstock and spent their twenties on acid before jill's dna damaged generation was conceived?

Welp, this thread has certainly evolved, flyin farts, people writin long winded responses sayin they got better things to do,"jills dna damaged generation".? ? ?