News you won't see in controlled mainstream media.

Same Sex Marriages, Legalized Abortion, Pornography...they all stem from one thing.

The seeds for the moral collapse of the United States were sewn in very document that established our government. Those seeds were put there by that Anti-Christian founding father, Thomas Jefferson. The states ratified the Constitution of the United States because they were tricked by those deist founding fathers who they, mistakenly, regarded highly.

I am talking about the First Amendment to the Constitution. The gall of them to allow religions other than Christianity!!

Wasn't the nation of Israel punished many times for the king's failure to stop his people from worshiping false gods?
Didn't Hezekiah reinstate God's blessing by tearing down the worshiping places of those false gods?

Yet our government has allowed this poison to infect our society and in fact protects that infection with a passion.

Islam
Scientology
Buddhism
Hinduism
Humanism!!

All protected and destroying our youth and our nation!!!

It is time for Christians to rise up and take back America! We don't need to have a change to the Constitution in order to define marriage. Nor do we need a rights-for-the-unborn amendment. Just change the first amendment to make Christianity (Nicene Creed, type) the only allowed religion. Tear down those idols!!!

Of course that means the free speech portion should be modified to prevent speech that is against Christianity and our God, but it is a minor change.

What's your opinion about the other founding fathers? (This is an honest question.)

People like to say Washington was a Mason but he renounced it later in life and was never involved in the higher ranks (or so I've read). I've never studied this issue in great detail so I can't speak much on it, but you do make a good point about the false religions infiltrating this country.

It's funny today how there is such an emphasis on "tolerance", but if the object of our "tolerance" is evil, how long shall we endure it without expecting consequences?

Washington never took the sacraments (bread/body and wine/blood) in his church according to his own pastor. He would go to church with Martha but would leave when the sacrament was being distributed. When the pastor preached a sermon about people not taking the sacraments, Washington changed his habits and just didn't come to church on the Sundays that the sacraments were to be performed. I have a copy of the letter by the pastor in which he stated these things.

The contention that Washington was a Mason has always been a bit muddled. I think the Mason's list him as a member, but I'm not sure. Do you have a source for your statement that he renounced his membership? Perhaps something in Washingston's own words/hand?

Ben Franklin: When cornered about his religion, stated that, if anything, he would have to classify himself as a deist.

Thomas Paine: Atheist/Deist depending on which of his writings you trust more. His later writings refer to God but that may be literary license.

John Adams: Christian by his own account but also wrote specifically that the US was not a Christian nation.

John Hancock: Claimed to be Christian...went to church....no writings by him concerning his dedication to his faith.

James Madison: Christian (Church of England), claimed dedication to his faith. However, he was on the forefront of the push for complete religious freedom in Virginia and in the US Constitution. He even wrote documents supporting the freedom from religion.

I would have to look up more stuff at home to answer in more detail.

Russ, how much do you actually know about the "false faiths"? It's a good thing most Christians in the UK don't agree with you. We have large populations from Asia and there would be race riots. Just what God wants I'm sure.

I know more than you would likely imagine.

People who are unfamiliar with the historical accuracy of Biblical prophecy are nearly always the same people who are unwilling to even engage in the most basic study of the evidence.

The truth is, most "Christians" are not practicing Biblical Christianity, and if it's not Biblical Christianity, it's not really Christianity at all. I know. I've been hanging around them for 20 years.

I would that you take note of this historical attribute: The majority is often wrong.

So you're excluding the majority of Christians in your select group as well? That makes quite a minority of you in the world population. It must be heartening to know that you are amongst the chosen few while everyone else is going to hell. Congratulations!

What God wants is for the nations of this Earth to turn back to Him. He punished Israel for their kings allowing false faiths to continue drawing the citizenry to them. God then blessed Israel when Hezekiah tore down the temples to other (false) gods.
Our nation was established under the banner that false gods would be allowed and even protected. It is a fact that devout Christian worship has kept God's punishment at bay. No that people are turning away from God, should we not expect his judgment just like in Israel?

Even if the majority of people would fight against us in this holy return to faith, we should win because it is what God desires. A nation dedicated to Him.

Again, I call for the true Christians of this nation to rise up and overthrow this insult to our God, then drive out these false religions. We must establish God's kingdom in the nation and convert the world through our example.

If your tongue was any more in your cheek you'd be choking.

Careful, you might find people here agreeing with you!

This here is an excellent foray into the background CON nections with some early historical references in relation to the bizness of the United States Incorporated,and of the shamefully small number a folks in power internationally. welp, globally, if you will. Well worth watchin, and yep, it's long, but the research behind it is purty cast-iron and highly commendable.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1158343264447729869&hl=en-GB

She's got a kinda irritatin voice, ( more sandpaper than silk) an I won't be singin any duets with this lil lady but I am singin her praises

LinearAq wrote:



Where can I sign up? I hate humanists too.

Its so easy to place the blame on why things are screwed up, but what are you doing to make it better?

It would be much wiser to leave such judgment to god, for only he can say who knows the truth and who shall be saved.

Hi gdawson6,

I too at first, took those comments as being "sincere". But realised after that it seemed instead they were done in sarcasm.

And were (if Linda's statement is correct) nothing more than a p*ss take of Christians (and therefore Christ, considering the foundational beliefs stem from Him). I'd like to give Linear the benefit of the doubt, but Linda obviously knows him better than I do and seemed fully aware of what he was doing.

Pwcca simply injected his own addition, no doubt for the same reason. If that is the case? They make a good team

Rather sad though!

But at any rate, you are right. Nobody can judge the human heart except God. However, we can (and should) indeed stand up and act on laws/behaviours that are intrisically wrong. To not do so, would be a sin of ommission. And who in society suffers the most from the immoral action/beliefs of adults? The children! The saying goes:

Evil flourishes when good people do nothing.

I really hope they were done in sarcasm, and I do agree that we should always stand up against what is obviously wrong.

Yeah, but not in a nice way. It was done as a derogatory dig at Christians. I take offense at what Linear did personally (as a Christian).

I do intend to get into the subject matter here, but just had to comment "Elvis" who's comment has me amused. I had dinner with one of your ex's!! Linda Thompson?? Went to her house before she and David broke up over the reality show they tried to do about her yuppy rich son's by Bruce Jenner... (If you are a true Elvis fan you will know who I'm talking about).

Well....the way I look at our founding fathers.... I believe they were good men inspired by God to help establish a place where we could practice freedom of religion....that mean's ALL religion. They weren't perfect. But I also believe the earth was still in a state of apostasy at that time and people were still trying to figure out where the truth or "Biblical Christianity" was to be found. My father in law who died the year I was born (my husband is almost 8 years older than me and he died when he was 7) was supposed to have been a Mason as well. He belonged to the Masonic lodges apparently. It was changed through the years, but my belief is that the authority of the priesthood (God's power) was lost when the apostles were killed off. The state and church compromised.....(religion became part of the govt.) and even cannonized scripture was altered through the ages. I think the Free Masons were trying to preserve something....I don't know that, but I believe their original tenets were noble and that they were trying to do the best with the light that they had. The entire church changed from how Christ originally established it.. People now just kind of pick and choose even from the Bible what they think it means. They build whole churches and religions on one facet of the Bible's teachings. But I believe everyone has a right to believe as they choose. We as a nation standing for freedom have to respect other's beliefs. BUT - Christians in all their denominations and branches also deserve that same right and consideration. That is being stomped on.

Well....the way I look at our founding fathers.... I believe they were good men inspired by God to help establish a place where we could practice freedom of religion....that mean's ALL religion. They weren't perfect. But I also believe the earth was still in a state of apostasy at that time and people were still trying to figure out where the truth or "Biblical Christianity" was to be found. My father in law who died the year I was born (my husband is almost 8 years older than me and he died when he was 7) was supposed to have been a Mason as well. He belonged to the Masonic lodges apparently. It was changed through the years, but my belief is that the authority of the priesthood (God's power) was lost when the apostles were killed off. The state and church compromised.....(religion became part of the govt.) and even cannonized scripture was altered through the ages. I think the Free Masons were trying to preserve something....I don't know that, but I believe their original tenets were noble and that they were trying to do the best with the light that they had. The entire church changed from how Christ originally established it.. People now just kind of pick and choose even from the Bible what they think it means. They build whole churches and religions on one facet of the Bible's teachings. But I believe everyone has a right to believe as they choose. We as a nation standing for freedom have to respect other's beliefs. BUT - Christians in all their denominations and branches also deserve that same right and consideration. That is being stomped on.

oops - sent twice somehow

Frankly, I am trying to understand why the Christian Fundamentalists who decry homosexuality as an abomination that is destroying our nation don't decry the government allowing non-Christian religions to exist in the USA. They don't say that this "religious freedom" is an abomination to God yet Israel and Judah were punished time and again for this same thing. God finally just had them taken into captivity because they were so "tolerant" of other religions. Why shouldn't Christians feel we are placing a curse on our own heads for not opposing other religions where ever possible?

Yes...leave such judgements to God...just like Israel and Judah did.

Yes...a bit of sarcasm. In our country, Fundamentalist Christians want to deny rights to people because of what they have done that harms no one else, just because those Christians believe it is a sin. Not believing in Christ is one of the biggest sins of all. However, you hear nothing about denying rights to Muslims or Buddhists. Why is that?

You mean that foundational belief that we should love God with all our heart, soul and mind? That one?
How about "Thou shalt place no other God before Me"? Sounds pretty foundational to me.

Tell me, if you criticize another Christian for their "mistaken" interpretation of the Bible, or their actions that seem unBiblical, are you criticizing Christ? If not, why do you think I am criticizing Christ when I point out seemingly contradictory actions by Christians in my country?

What makes it sad to you?

Like allowing competing religions or ideas.

And yet Fundamentalist Christians do nothing about the government allowing false religions to florish. Strange!

Which simply proves your accusations are nothing but baloney doesn't it?

You seem to be just another person using lies to spread hatred.

enjoy your day. alone.

Hang on. Who are you referring to that harms nobody else? Are you talking about homosexuals? You are aware that God Himself condemns homosexuality arent you? It is throughout the bible. He also condemns fornication (let that be a lesson to us "heterosexuals")...sexuality is a gift from God Linear, it's not something you and I "decide" where and how it should be used according to our feelings/urges. It is very much part of the sacred bond between a man and a woman within marriage, with the ultimate intent for procreation (even nature reflects the same male to female intent - with "few" deviations).

Fornication, adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, paedophilia, deviate from what God intended and what He has commanded. Deviating from His intentions and commandments harms us, as much as it harms eachother and in the end, harms society. We can look at it very much from the "world's" viewpoint, or God's viewpoint, that is a choice. We can consider the world's view that so long as it's two consenting adults, it's "ok". Or we can consider God's view that it is not ok, it is a serious offense to Him and a violation to the gift of sexuality. He created it afterall, who are you or I to decide?

It is not up for your opinion or mine. If you believe in God, then it comes down to obedience, not "opinion". And obedience is also a sign of faithfulness and love. We are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God in our personal lives, and all need to continue fighting the "good fight", but to okay sins? Is in a sense, scandalising others and putting our feelings and decisions above God.



Linear, if your original post was genuine, then I am sorry I accused you unfairly. Linda said it was "tongue in cheek" so I assumed she was right without even asking you. I should have known better than to trust Linda on that one. You are totally correct to point out the contradictions and how many more there are too! We are so often an inconsistent bunch, but human afterall. There is one true God. I believe personally that the way to the Father is through the Son Jesus Christ as the bible teaches. I do not believe that God condemns a person if they have not yet met Christ and have been brought up in another religion. The person's intentions and loyalty to their own faith defintitely comes into it and some can also put us to shame by their faithfulness to their own religion (whom they sincerely believe is the right way). Personal knowledge/circumstances etc most definitely come into it. I was, myself, away from Him. But not deliberately so! I did not reject Him, nor did I make fun of Him, I was lost and didn't know it. Because of this, He came to Me because I was "genuinely lost", not intentionally. Some part of me was seeking Him, but didn't know how. I came to Him after some painful outcomes with dabbling in the occult. He was the only one that had power over it. I tried other means to escape and was powerless.

Pointing out (or criticising) as you see it, if someone has missed something in the bible is not judging Christ. How can that be judging Christ? If Christ Himself had already pointed it out? You're only using correction. Do you think He would be pleased to have us say nothing for fear that the person will accuse us of "being judgemental"?



Well I'm a New Zealander Linear and I cannot do much about what those in power decide to do once they get there. I can only vote according to my conscience and God's laws and vote for someone who has Christian values. So often, they do not get in. Why does any government in power allow abortion on any level? There's another one for ya. If you think false religions flourishing is bad, how about the abortion holocaust? You know, there are some "Christians' who actually support this atrocity?

Yes, we do indeed need Christ to come back and come back soon to right all wrongs. What a mess!

??? What hatred are you talking about? Do you think that Buddhism, Wicca and Islam are not false religions?

What in that statement of mine is a lie? Do Fundamentalist Christians in the US oppose the support that the First Amendment to the US Constitution gives to those false religions?

They openly oppose freedom of speech by demanding laws restricting it. Why not demand laws restricting religions other than Christianity? Why is that a boundary that they won't cross?

If not asking for laws to restrict those false religions then why are they not protesting in front of Hindu temples, or at Wiccan gatherings? Even Fred Phelps won't do that and he is a real extremist.

Don't you think that if Christianity were the only choice for a religion that these other problems would be diminished? When Hezekiah destroyed the temples to Baal in Judah, was that an act of hatred?

All I want to know is why you don't support removal of the false religions from this country.

How would we be different, then? I shudder to think of the untruths that would be shoved down our throats if the govt. decided which "true" religions could stay. Religious persecution is why many came to this nation. It WAS founded on righteous principals and, I believe, the constitution was an inspired writing.

Well said, Jeanie. Unfortunately, your Christian counterparts here in this particular forum would disagree with you.

Homosexuality, according to them, must be ousted, done away with, stopped at all costs because their relgion says so. Circumcision is done not for hygenic purposes, not for cultural or traditional reasons, but because their religion, their god says so (and who cares what some other god(s) or religions dictate, it's not the Christian one and that, according to them, is law). The US, they'll tell you, is a dwindling nation because it is no longer a Christian nation. Laws must be in place not because they are just or fair, not because they are in the interest of all people regardless of their religious background but because their religion demands it.

Anyone who believes these things must therefore stand in opposition with other religions. You do not make statements like "I believe the US is suffering today because it is no longer Christian" and in the same breath say that you believe people should have the freedom to practice (or not) whatever religion they so choose.

So I guess the real question, Jeanie, is where do you stand? Do you believe "the US is suffering because it is no longer a Christian nation"? If so this begs the question, how do you feel about other religions? If you do feel this way then surely you see Buddhists and Muslims -- and dare I say pagans such as myself -- as a stain on society.

Well...some of the folks on here aren't going to like this, but I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - a Mormon. I believe the fullness of the Gospel with the authority of the priesthood was restored to the earth about 170 years ago. I'm sure I will either be outright rejected on this forum by some, or talked about behind my back. I am open to answer any questions (or accusations...) and happy to answer them to the best of my ability. I believe Priesthood authority was lost when the carriers of that priesthood were killed off and that we entered into the dark ages... The church was changed from its original teachings and those teachings were altered down through the ages and, yes, even the Bible was altered. We see the King James version as most accurate. Great people tried to get back to the truth - suffered horrible consequences in most cases, but helped set the way for the restoration of the fullness of the gospel to happen and it had to happen here on this continent - with freedom - for it to be able to take root. Even so the church endured persecution which is why the saints finally headed out west where they could practice and the church could grow in relative peace. We now have more members outside America than within..

But Duchess, I (we) see our Father in Heaven as just that - a loving Father. I don't see you as a stain....To be honest I may see you as lost....but not beyond hope. (Honestly I don't even know you...) Not sure why you refer to yourself as a pagan..if its literally a religion or as compared to a Christian - but almost all of us on here have been lost at one time or another. Some of us still are....and certainly none of us is perfect. There is only one person who has ever been perfect. We are in a dark world and there is a lot to be confused by.

Having said that...I believe that in the Old Testament times the Lord gave commandments people may not have understood, but believe there were still reasons for them. Sometimes it is just about obedience as in the case of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son.. I believe it was a test of his faith and faithfulness and also that it taught Abraham a lot about the atonement...(Christ's sacrifice). They were taught not to eat unclean meat, too, and we know there was wisdom in that. (The reason the Bubonic (sp?) plague passed by the Jews....which was, apparently, a cause for persecution toward them because of that). Circumcision served more than one purpose as well...

I don't believe homosexuality is healthy either physically, spiritually or emotionally. I believe it is unnatural. If you practice it and this offends you I am sorry. But I also think there is a way back. I do not hold contempt for those who practice it - but I will never see it as normal or acceptable. I see it as damaging in many respects to those who practice it and do not want it taught as normal to my children or my children's children. I believe there may be cases where there are true hormonal imbalances..but we do have the technology to correct those. I certainly don't fill the traditional roles of a woman in some ways. My husband is more emotional than the average man (outwardly). But we balance each other out..

Anyway - not sure if that was even brought up for personal reasons, but I do not see you as a stain in any case. I see you as a person of great worth in our Father in Heaven's sight and in my sight. Wickedness was never happiness. (Scripture from the Book of Mormon : ) The commandments are there for our sake....for our happiness and for our safety. I have some other things pertaining to the state of America I'm going to type in in a following post.

"And Moroni was a strong and a mighty man; he was a man of a perfect understanding; yea, a man that did not delight in bloodshed; a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his country; and his brethren from bondage and slavery;
Yea, a man whose heart did swell with thanksgiving to his God, for the many privileges and blessings which he bestowed upon his people; a man who did labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of his people.
Yea and he was a man who was firm in the faith of Christ, and he had sworn with an oath to defend his people, his rights and his country, and his religion, even to the loss of his blood."
Alma 48: 11-13

"And now, when Moroni saw that the city of Nephihah was lost he was exceeding sorrowful, and began to doubt, because of the wickedness of the people, whether they should fall into the hands of their brethren.
Now this was the case with all his chief captains. They doubted and marveled also because of the wickedness of the people, and this because of the success of the Lamanites over them.
And it came to pass that Moroni was angry with the government, because of their indifference concerning the freedom of their country."

Alma 59: 11-13

Concerning this continent pertaining to the people possessing it at the time it was written B.C.:

"And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.
(Note: this did happen...we now know that there were great civilizations upon this land that were wiped out).
And now, we can behond the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fullness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.
For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, they they are swept off."

Ether 2:7

Now - directed to the American Gentiles of the last days:

"And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God - that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that he may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.
Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written."

Ether 2: 11-12

One more:

"Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophecy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.
Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever."

2 Nephi 1: 6-7

Personal note: The Book of Mormon is a record of the people on the American continent. They came over originally from Jerusalem (one branch - another group came even earlier) about 600 B.C. If you read Ezekial 37: 16-17 the stick of Judah represents the Bible, the stick of Ephraim, the people here who brought forth the Book of Mormon. I need to find the exact reference, but in the New Testament Christ talks about "Other sheep have I which are not of this fold...." Before his ascension but after the crucifixion, Christ also visited the people here on this continent. There are stories of "Quozecoatal" (sp?) also known by other names, but all referring to the Great While God who was to return.

I know some of you likely have preconceived ideas about Mormons and I really do understand that being a convert myself. My sister is Baptist. I had relatives who turned on me when I joined the church when I was 15. Hasn't been easy....but I'm use to it. My only request is that you give us a fair shake in explaining any questions, etc., rather than reverting to those would like to put an evil slant on things. Just the other day on the radio some preacher was talking about us. I promise we do not brainwash.. We are very much about free will.

Hi again Jeanie. First I must thank you for your open mindedness when discussing these things with me and not resorting to childish temper tantrums and derogatory remarks. Thank you! That isn't to imply that I think you would do these things but a summary glance at numerous other threads should be a clear indication as to why I might expect it from another poster.

I asked my questions from an argumentative standpoint, not a personal one. My sexual orientation in no way inspired my comments, nor did my religion; they were examples to make a broader statement. You asked if I meant being a pagan in the literal sense. Yes. I am a Celtic Reconstructionist, as my parents. Conversely, whereas you see me as being "lost" for my religious upbringing, I in turn do not see you or other Christians as lost. I see all religions as a chosen path. Different folks different strokes. It would indeed be a sad world, sickened by sameness if everyone across the globe shared the same religion.

I'm not sure if I got a direct answer though. Do you a) believe that America is suffering because it is no longer Christian and, if so, then b) you must therefore see other religions as the reason for America's alleged descension, right? As LinearAq succinctly points out, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and even myself worship "false gods" and therefore we should, according to this line of thinking, be stopped. Otherwise how else can one reverse the destruction which has been wrought upon "Christian America"?

PS: The Duchess of Malfi is where the quote in my signature comes from. It's a Jacobean play. I'm neither a Duchess nor female, heh!

Hi Pwcca, I simply expressed the Christian belief biblically from Christ Himself.....this does not come from self deciding "bias".

I made it clear that for a follow of Christ, it's not about what I feel like doing/believing, but being faithful to my God and His commands. This also includes my own personal behaviours (sexual and otherwise) as well. It does not just speak about homosexuality as I said, but ALL deviations from the original intention of the sexual act. For one that believes in God, it is not up for question. For those that don't? Well they may decide their own "moral code".

If I did not believe in Christ and my beliefs in origins were different, I would honestly have no issue with it. Why would I? For me, Christ and the bible have given sexuality far more dignity and more point than what the TV shows etc have cheapened it to. How much it actually does mean and certainly the responsibility we have to express it wisely.

It really does depend on what somebody believes that all these things come from. If there is no "ultimate" accountability, then why should we not then have our own moral code? We can decide what we feel is right or wrong. And that may even go for every other sexual act you can imagine.

But because I am a believer in Christ, and a believer in creation, then for me, I am fully aware where these things ultimately come from and who is the one to decide how our "sexuality" is best expressed. I cannot help it if other people object or find this irritating/frustrating. What kind of Christian would I be if I decided this was "ok" when God Himself has condemned it, and it is a great offense to Him (abomination). As is fornication (living together before marriage), adultery etc. Why people focus on homosexuality, I really do not know. It's ALL deviations from the natural sex act and any sex outside of marriage.

Should I have to apologise? Sorry folks, but if you have a problem with this? Then you have a problem with Christ and ought to take it up with Him. This is biblical, this is not just "my opinion".

....and therefore we should, according to this line of thinking, be stopped....

I think you are bit paranoid. If 'Christian America' had any intention of stopping other religions from gaining a foothold, it would have happened long ago. But no, what we see in the real world is only proof of the exact opposite.

and then of course someone is bound to run in and yell 'witch burners' and of course they haven't taken a single moment to realize that anything of that nature that occurred way way back within groups of people who were raised in that tradition, with burning at the stake or various forms of torture accepted as corporeal punishment (which corporeal punishment still exists today in various forms mind you), did happen within select groups of people who were judging their own people, not outsiders or other groups..

of course I suppose it is ok in the view of a celtic reconstructionist for a satanist or wiccan to torture and kill even though the same act when done by a member of another religion sets his blood afire. Of course the intent of the act of murder will justify the murder in that case for anyone who requires a rational reason that isn't inherently obvious. Whereas in pagan religions human sacrifice is allowable but in Christian religions corporeal punishment is not acceptable to the mind and emotions of the celtic reconstructionist.

yes, we've heard it all before. from numerous people who like to accuse and point fingers at others for the things they themselves are most guilty of.

Ok I have a question. I am not an expert on the book of mormon. by any stretch.

So, exactly who is Moroni?

Ther is actually quite a bit of archeological evidence which does suggest that some of the native american, as we call them, are actually the decendants of hebrews, and also phonecians, from during the time of Soloman. Whether or not the book of mormon is their book is rather questionable though, I think, especially since it was not known among native americans.

In South america, the tribes of indians that were first encountered by europeans, who brought the word of God to the new world (the great white god), practiced rituals very similar to the pagan religions of phonecia. Likeise many early native indian religions kept customs and rituals strikingly similar to hebrew and phonecian customs and religious rituals.

The hebrews spread themselves across all of the continent, all the way into Russia and china, into Africa etc. This is undeniable. So when Jesus mentions 'others not of this fold, he is likely referring also to these. but undoubtedly he is also referring to the lost people that ventured overseas in search of treasure for King Soloman. and it is mentioned in the bible, yes, that some were lost at sea.

try www.s8int.com I think that is the url, they have quite a bit of info there they have collected.

No, you should not have to apologize for your religious belief....ever. Even if you speak that belief in a public forum or on the street corner, you should not be forced into silence.

By the same token, others should not be forced to comply with your religious code unless their violations of that code also trample on the rights of others (ie murder, rape...etc). There are those in my country who are influencing lawmakers to enact laws to force people to follow the moral codes of one particular religion....Christian fundamentalism.

This thread is about the contrary actions of those people. I want to understand why they feel that the actions of a particular group of people should be stopped while the actions of another group of people, just as much an abomination by Christian standards, is immune from legislation.

Why do these people feel that the teaching of evolution in school should be restricted but the teaching in the mosque should not? Both are influencing the young toward a life without Christ, aren't they?

BTW: I looked and could find no words of Christ that addressed fornication or homosexuality. Could you point them out for me?

I never said that. I just think that they should not play favorites by picking and choosing which abominations are to be blotted out and which they should allow to continue despite the requirements of the Bible.

So Christian Fundamentalists have given money to build a Buddhist temple or allowed a Hindu ceremony in their church? I what way have Evangelical Christians helped in the teaching of other religions?


Yes...way back in 1998 as shown here

I never said that people practicing those other religions should be killed or tortured. There are other ways to deal with them...deportation, fines, prison sentences. Was the idea of burning something you normally choose as a means of dealing with those that refuse to convert?

What you suppose and what is real may be different. You have examples of celtic reconstructionists torturing and killing people?

It seems that you are saying Pwcca is in favor of "corporeal" punishment and even murder in the name of his religion. Where did you get that idea?

Do you have examples of these human sacrifices to pagan religions in recent times?

Is a pagan religion defined as any religion besides Christianity?

You believe that I am guilty of trying to influence legislation to restrict the freedoms of a group of people? Please provide some evidence to support that accusation.

Short answer: The angel that led Joseph Smith to the Golden Plates containing the Book of Mormon.

More detailed at this Wikipedia article
and Mormon article

The second article is more kindly to the Latter-day Saints than the first.

Well, Wiki must be wrong because Jeanie's quote from the book of Mormon specifically states that Moroni was a man. A man with brethren in chains and bondage.

Amazing you could miss it all:

Matthew 5:27 -
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

Matthew 5:28 -
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Matthew 5:32 -
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Matthew 19:9 -
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Matthew 19:18 -
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Mark 10:11 -
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

Mark 10:12 -
And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Mark 10:19 -
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

John 8:41 -
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Luke 17:29 -
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Luke 16:18 -
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Luke 18:20 -
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.


2 Peter 2:6 -
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Jude 1:7 -
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

There's more too.

Why would Christian Fundamentalists do that? Have Buddhists or Hindus contributed to the coffers of christian churches or helped them teach the bible?



I think if you study history, just a little bit, you find that methods of corporeal punishment, among various cultures not just Christian cultures, for various different things, differed quite a bit back in the days prior to the prison system being established. Christians are rather tolerant of other religions compared to others like Hindu and islam who do use the death sentence against people who leave those faiths.

Any particular reason you are choosing to try to make Christians look intolerant? If you continue and get your way too much you may actually find yourelf living under a system of sharia law someday and then you will truly know the meaning of religious intolerance.

Why is the Christian objection to things like sharia law and other very intolerant beliefs among other religions is a problem for you? You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth.



Well, you know, a predominantly Christian culture did sometime ago, make certain pagan religious practices illegal.. So, not any legal examples, but people have been sent to prison over recent years for being caught doing various things of that nature. Is that a problem for you too? We could of course turn back the clock, build pyraminds, sacrifice maidens and warriors and roll their heads down the steps of the pyramids to get the gods to favor us instead. Would that make LinearAQ happy?



No, you seem to actually just be not very well informed about things.. with a worldly chip of hatred toward christians on your shoulder and you don't even seem to know how it got there.. That statement was directed to Pwcca who is always accusing Christians of calling people names when in fact he does it more than anyone else.

I'm in favor of incorporeal punishment. I only believe in killing ghosts, for example.

Corporeal punishment does not always refer to the death penalty. But anyway, so you are against the death penalty but you favor abortion and the rights of pagans to practice ritual human sacrifice?

maybe you can clarify that.

and what about other practices of other religions? for instance, are you in favor of permitting muslims to cut off a person's hand if they are accused of theft? to cut out their tongues if they blaspheme? Do you favor sharia law in regard to the rights of women, or lack of? Do you agree with the muslim idea that women should not be allowed to drive a car? do you favor the hindu practice of burning a widow alive alongside her deceased husband? Do you favor the caste sytem, even when civil rights laws prohibit such discrimination? Do you favor protecting and the necessary feeding of certain species of animals as holy to the gods even when your children are starving? Do you favor the pagan practice of offering babies and children, burning them alive, to the gods? Do you favor the pagan practice of spreading mercury throughout places to protect them from evil spirits?

Did I say adultery?

However


I guess I was wrong since fornication does seem to be a sin. My translations call it marital unfaithfulness (adultery). The only one that calls it fornication is my King James.


Again Jesus refers to adultery. Are you saying adultery is the same as fornication?


This is a reference by the Hebrews in the crowd that they were not illegitimate. Jesus does not say fornication or condemn it here.

In context, Jesus is referring to the fact that the people of Sodom were not expecting the judgment and were unprepared for it. He said nothing about why they were judged.


Adultery again...not homosexuality or fornication.



These 2 are not quotes from Jesus.

Don't get me wrong. I believe that sex is not something that can just be used indiscriminately. It is a relationship builder within a marriage that communicates trust and openness.

It's just that Jesus seemed to be concentrating on things that had more basic importance.

He was a man. He wrote the Book of Mormon on the Golden Tablets and buried them about 450 years after Christ's birth. After, he died, Moroni was elevated to angel status.

You could have read the articles to find this stuff out.

You can try to make them opposites all day long Linear but it never work. they are pretty much one and the same, just variations of context. which is probably why your translations interchange the words without difficulty also.



He didn't have to. He was was speaking to a crowd that spent every sabbath day in the temple studying the scripture. people who could quote scripture at a moment's notice.



Does it matter? Are you trying to indicate the writer was not taught by Jesus?

Yes I could have. But I didn't because I am waiting for a reply from a mormon, not an article or opinion from wiki.

Since you appear so knowledgeable, perhaps you can point out to us another example, a biblical example, of an angel that also lived as a man. An angel with brethren in chains and bondage.

are you going to continue veering off to try to find places in the bible where you don't understand the meaning or else aren't aware of the scriptue and so you can use that to justify your ideas for a few odd moments or will you proceed to simply address the inconsistencies in your argument that I have pointed out above in regard to the practices of other religions which you are promoting which would inhibit the freedom of others at the expense of your own argument which claims Christian are trying to stop you from doing something?

Then you don't support the teaching of other religions. OK

Not all Christians. The ones who are trying to make everyone conform to their moral code by changing the laws and even the Constitution of the US are making themselves look intolerant. I am just pointing out the inconsistency in their actions.

I am at a loss as to how you came up with the idea that I support sharia law as a means of governing people. I believe I have stated just the opposite. Just because I oppose the imposition of Fundamentalist Christian moral code upon the US citizenry, does not mean I support using another religious code in the same manner. Your logic is truly dizzying.

They object to it? They must not object very much because they don't protest it or try to prevent its teaching.

Like denying that Christ is the Messiah from 1478 to 1834...see here

Examples please that show these people were part of an organized religion that condoned their actions.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I supported these particular religious actions.

Shall we go through all your posts and his and make a tally of the name calling? I guess we would first have to agree on what type of statements would constitute "name calling" so we are on the same page.

Just because I am against subjecting the US citizenry to the involuntary enforcement of Extremist Christian religious moral doctrine, does not mean I am in favor of the involuntary enforcement of any other religious moral doctrine.

Where do you get these ideas? Or is this just a means of discrediting my statements by inferring that I support that kind of zaniness?

Correct me if I am wrong, but did you not indicate that you perceived Christians as wanting to impose their beliefs on the general population? Which is obviously not true since Christians obviously tolerate other religions.. but did you not indicate your perception that this was not so? And that it should not be so either?

So now, you appear to be be indicating that you would like to also restrict the practices of other religions which you disagree with.

How does this statement:


coexist with the idea of freedom for the people of other religions whose beliefs your ideas are in direct conflict with?

Is it not you who is is attempting to impose your beliefs, religious or otherwise, on others?

The second article was by Mormons. As far as I know, there were no examples of angels that were previously men. This is where mainstream Christian denominations disagree with Mormon doctrine.


I don't see where you have pointed out inconsistencies in my argument unless you mean your mistaken belief that I want to impose another religious code on people in place of the Fundamentalist Christian one.

What fundamentalist Christian 'one' are you referring to? You should make that perfectly clear instead of just using vague insinuations to try to make a point. I mean honestly, if you can only find one even, that would hardly be a foundation for all the numerous claims you are attempting to make.

and... what you see as my 'mistaken' belief, has been made quite clear by yourself in previous statements, that you desire to see your beliefs imposed on others, religious or otherwise, as retribution for your mistaken belief that Christians are responsible for limiting your freedoms and the freedoms of others.

Perhaps you have not noticed that belief in Jesus is not a requirement to live as a US citizen and never has been? perhaps you have not noticed that Christians have not demanded, now or at anytime in the history of this country, that you believe and be taught creationism in public school, whereas evolution for instance, an idea which opposes the basic foundations of Christianity (and other religions, atheists being a minority in most places) has been required to be taught and learned by children in public schools who are even required to be graded in their knowledge of that subject, whereas non-Christian children are not required to be graded in their knowledge of scripture in the public schools.

There are too many holes in your argument to list here. I do sincerely believe you are simply venting that chip on your shoulder that causes you to hate or dislike Christians, without any thought whatsoever for reality or the implications of your suggestions.

I do not wish to use the legal system to restrict any practice of any religion unless that practice violates the freedoms of another person involuntarily.

No. No one has to believe as I do. I just don't want them to enact laws that force me to act the way they want me to.

Let me give you an example. The Defense Of Marriage Act was a law that passed in Congress to directly allow states to not recognize same-sex marriages performed in another state. This is in direct violation of the 14th amendment to the US Constitution and was passed because of the incessant lobbying of Fundamentalist Christian groups. Then the administration issued an order to the judiciary that lawsuits questioning the Constitutionality of DOMA were not to be tried by the Supreme Court. That was a direct imposition of a religious code to restrict the freedom of a portion of the US population who's actions were not violating any other person's freedoms.

Doesn't look like tolerance to me.

So my question still remains...if they have no problem enacting laws that impose their religious code upon one group of people (homosexuals) why do they have a problem enacting laws to impose their religious code upon another group of people (Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim)?

Please provide a reference to anywhere that I said I want MY beliefs imposed upon others.

This is not about evolution/creationism. It is about the inconsistency in the teaching and actions of the Christians who want to impose laws that align with their religion's moral code.


What you believe is the impetus for my argument has no relevance here. If you can provide one of the holes in my argument maybe we can start off discussing that.

Boy, that's a tongue twister. let's break that statement down and take a better look at it...

I do not wish to use the legal system to restrict any practice of any religion..

all things should be permitted...

unless that practice violates the freedoms of another person involuntarily.

hmmm.. this part is difficult, the tongue twister part... unless that practice (beliefs, rituals, habits, traditions, customs) violates the freedoms (the desires, the beliefs, the goals, the unlimited rights) .. of another person involuntarily... (the innocent victim/the believer of ritual sacrifice, the rape victim/the practicer of hedonism, just two examples easy to see enough we could go on all day)...

so I am confused, if we stop people from performing ritual sacrifice or raping, we protect tpossible victims but we violate the freedom of the other two, the practicers of sacrifice and hedonism or sadism, to freely practice their beliefs and customs, we violate their rights to freely exist.

You statement has some flaws even though it appears benign and righteous. Do you promote a pro-life stance? do you desire to protect the lives of the unborn or do you promote the idea that a victim, the denial of life to one, is sometimes neceassary to achieve the goals and satisfy the beliefs of another person? So, how does your statement stand in that context? It doesn't. just because you do not recognize the unborn as a life does not mean others must agree with you.



A vote in congess indicates a majority in favor of a certain opinion. The only place it is in direct violation of the 14th amendment to the US Constitution is in the minds of people like yourself who see themselves and their beliefs as more worthy of protection than others. But obviously, in the case of The Defense Of Marriage Act, your opinion is the minority. You fail to recognize the rights of others who do not believe that the recognition of same sex marriages is proper nor that they should be required to recognize such unions in direct conflict with their basic beliefs and long held traditions.

So, even though you state that you don't want anyone to enact laws that force you to act the way others want to act, you none-the-less are arguing incessantly that others should act the way you act, regardless of their beliefs.

the majority disagrees with you Linear. You are a dictator in a freeman's clothing but your jacket is invisible.

I think what's being overlooked here is the original intention of this thread -- at least as far as I interpret it (LinearAq, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). And if what I have to say here is not at the heart of this thread then, well, I'm asking it anyway, heh.

I see the issue as this. Anyone who makes statements like America is suffering because it is no longer Christian must, by default, have serious issues with all non-Christian religions. Or, at the very least, they must want them out of their own country and out of sight.

To put it another way, let us say that I am a Christian. Let us also say, arguendo, that I believe America is a diminishing nation because it is no longer a Christian nation. Purely from my own standpoint, I'm going to see any and all non-Christians, even the most passive of religions such as Buddhism or Wicca, as heathens, infidels, usurpers and otherwise a hindrance to my country. After all, America is disintigrating before our very eyes because it's no longer Christian, right? According to this line of thinking, there is no room for things like religious tolerance. We're at war here, folks. America is being attached because of its non-Christian aspect. Therefore anything not Christian is the enemy.

To these people who subscribe to such beliefs I ask, how do you so much as have even the vaguest hint of tolerance for non-Christian religions (as well as agnostics and atheists)? Are these not the very false faiths which have caused our country's downfall? How can someone say they do not persecute non-Christians and that America is entering a downward spiral because it's no longer Christian in the same breath? I don't see this as possible without being a hypocrite, but feel free to show me where I'm wrong.

It's for this reason that I want to see the Christians of the forum (no, not all Christians, the ones who believe this nonsense about America's downfall) say word for word that they hate and want to see all other relgions done away with. How can you think anything other than that? Please enlighten me.

As for these remarks about me having issues with Christians, I have no issue with any religion. I have issues with how certain religions are abused to promote unrelated agendas. Moreover, it is simply in my nature to observe contradictions in highly opinionated statements. As far as I know, no one can say America is suffering because it's not Christian and also claim that they have absolutely no issues whatosoever with, for example, Buddhists. They're either the enemy, the direct result of America's problems, or they're not.

Hey PWCCA,

Sorry about the Duccess thing I just glanced at the closing... Wow - I have a lot to catch up on here. We've been putting in tile and painting.

PWCCA: Conversely, whereas you see me as being "lost" for my religious upbringing, I in turn do not see you or other Christians as lost. I see all religions as a chosen path. Different folks different strokes. It would indeed be a sad world, sickened by sameness if everyone across the globe shared the same religion.

Me: While I admittedly get bored around nothing but Mormons...and prefer not to live in UT, (although its not even predominantly LDS anymore) I do believe in my faith or else I wouldn't be in this church... But it doesn't take away our individuality, obviously, and we all come from different backgrounds. I did not grow up LDS, but joined the church when I was 15. I was searching at that point after my dad died when I was 12 when he was only 38. Life after death matters suddenly meant a lot to me...I'm still the only member in my family.
Anything Celtic is interesting to me. I don't know if you are from Ireland/Scotland?? My roots are there on my father's side. (There is supposed to be a Culbertson County there...or something like that). Anyway - I looked it up on the net but honestly don't know or understand what you believe from the brief glance reading up on it. I am also part Native American...not much, but I've always related with it - look somewhat native at least in the cheekbones and have been asked by Natives what my tribe is. I wonder if their methods of looking to the earth or at least respecting her is not unlike yours? That probably sounds dumb....I really don't know what they even believe in detail. We (LDS - Mormons) believe the earth has a spirit.... I do think there is something to be said about being in touch with or in tune with nature, though. We don't believe in needlessly killing - hunting for the pleasure, etc.

I think there is good, as a rule in all Christian churches - and truth.... I think there is probably truth in all churches (meaning non-Christian). We just believe our church has all the puzzle pieces I guess you could say. As far as God has revealed it.... As far as other faiths, I can't speak for what I don't fully understand or know about. If you are raised a certain way obviously that is what you know. I would honestly be interested in understanding what you do practice or believe even in private if need be. Not interesting in converting....just curious and interested just for understanding purposes.

But as far as America suffering because of no longer being Christian...... Again - I see good in all other faiths which are Christian and in other faiths period. I live in the south here - the Bible belt - and I feel we are blessed because of all the good people here. I like the people here. My daughter also works for a guy from India who I believe is Hindu. Both my daughters worked there at one time and have been to dinner at their house. (Lots of statues). They treat her like a daughter. They don't like that we don't let her work Sundays and we had to go in so they'd let her off July 4th when her own dad was performing at a big concert here....but they've grown to accept our ways and we accept theirs. And obviously other religions that practice the good in their religions as in Muslims, etc. are doing the best they know how (not the fanatical heretic, obviously - jihadists). I do respect everyone's right to believe as they see fit. I haven't really thought of America's state in that light to be honest, and would have to ponder it.

I do, however, believe that this nation was built on tenets of faith and when we turn against Him... and practice abortion... molest children....whoredoms....child abuse....murder...corruption....(notice how where the Mardi Gras took place was wiped out?) and yes....same-sex marriage. Those things will bring His judgments upon us to humble and wake us up for one thing. (Obviously not all natural disasters happen to bad people doing bad things, though).

Anyway - not sure if this addresses your questions. Ask away if not.

Bex and all,

I do think that we are held to a higher standard knowing better....but irregardless the commandments are for our own good. They are natural laws even. (With reference to moral codes).

This is partially what is the heart of the thread. However, it is not entirely about the hypocrisy in bemoaning the lack of Christian values in our country and claiming acceptance of other faiths. People can have their opinions, even hypocritical ones.

It is the call to arms by the Fundamentalist Christians against the anti-Christian values which is contradicted by their overt hesitancy to oppose the anti-Christian religions. What is more anti-Christian than Hinduism? Well maybe your religion.

It is their contrary actions within the legal system that are a problem. If they wish to enact laws that force people to follow their moral code, why not target the worst offenders?

The difference is that you are questioning the contrariness of their thoughts and I am questioning the contrariness of their actions.

I guess I could say you are close enough for government work, though.

I'm catching up and I know it gets answered later on, but yes, Moroni was a man who contributed to the Book of Mormon - wrote one of the books of the Book of Mormon - and was a religious leader at that time. We have statues of the angel Moroni atop our temples because he was the angel who appeared to Joseph Smith to teach him where to find the plates which Moroni - in life - had buried in order to obviously protect them to come forth in this "dispensation" for our use and guidance in the latter days in companionship with the Bible.

I'm still not good at quoting...but where, SoSick, you refer to the Book of Mormon not likely being a record of the Native Americans...it was a record made and kept by religious leaders - prophets, etc. Originally Lehi brought over from the middle east the records they had of their genealogy as well as scripture so they could teach their descendants. Nephi - Lehi's son - was the one who first started writing on the plates. It became a type of "reformed" egyptian - a bit of a variation of the language due to them being separate from their original culture for so long. On a sidenote there, when you watch The Passion of the Christ...in Hebrew it sounds much like the language of the Native Americans to me.. Of course all the different tribes began varying their own languages as well. I mean they've been here since before Christ. There were also other people's who settled here. One group which came over separate of Lehi's family died out. They had come over at the time of the tower of babel. There was a lot of war and bloodshed. They lived what we call the pride cycle. They would be righteous and prosper, then become prideful, then have wars and destruction which would humble them.. They would repent, become righteous, then prosper, then become prideful...etc. etc. Similar, actually, to us now. I think of our country of being in a pride cycle right now - and being humbled.... There was a period of total peace and prosperity for 300 years after Christ appeared here and taught the Gospel. They did have some great civilizations at one time. The Book of Mormon prophets prophesied of His coming from the beginning of their civilization. (They came over knowing of His coming). Parts of one of the books quotes quite a bit from Isaiah. I need to start reading it again... I'm ashamed I don't know it in detail as much as I should - but I've read it several times. It's actually quite a good read. Anyway - when they were at peace their civilization was amazing. But the book was not widely known among the people. It was a record kept of the goings on concerning the wars, teachings of the prophets, the coming of Christ and the history of the people as witnessed by its writers till it was hid up. The Nephites were destroyed and Moroni was the last known surviving Nephite. The Lamanites are the ones left and they were scattered pretty much from that point. I don't think there was much in the way of a written record with them other than that. The Book of Mormon plates were found long before we even knew about the ruins discovered down south.

I think my great great grandmother was Cherokee. We aren't positive - she married an Englishman : )

Linear, are you American? If not where from if you don't mind?

You may be saying this in jest..but you can't kill a ghost...
You may be able to drive it off, but spirits are eternal. Were you serious Linear??

What is not to understand? Do you think your rights usurp someone else's rights? I am sure that you don't believe that. So, the exercise of your personal rights should be allowed as long as they don't trample on the rights of others. Basically, your rights are restricted to the boundaries where they don't take away someone else's rights.

Any action that has victims is not considered a right...our laws are for protecting the rights of the individual. So actions that violate an individual's rights cannot be rights.

The unborn don't have a legal status under the law. They didn't have a legal status under the Bible laws either. Causing a miscarriage was not considered murder unless the woman died. See Exodus 21:22-23
Would you say the child's life is more important than the mother's life? Regardless, this is a subject best left for another thread. Care to start an anti-abortion thread?

So you believe that the majority vote should rule regardless of how it affects the rights of the minority?

Looks like another subject that you would like to talk about. Maybe you could start that new thread with an explanation of how making same sex marriages legal prevents you from being allowed to believe it is wrong.

Which one of my statements requires you to act contrary to your belief system?


The majority could vote for enslaving all illegal aliens but I doubt that would make it right. I am a dictator for wanting the most freedoms for the most people...interesting.

U.S. Citizen through and through.

So Sick, I appreciate this....that you are bothering to ask me. There is a lot of misinformation out there concerning our religion. I almost said there are OUR websites like www.mormon.org and JesusChrist.lds.org which are specifically there to address questions. The one site, I think, Linear sent was fairly accurate but its always better to get it from us. I'm not sure if wikipedia is necessarily accurate for anything. I know for school reports our kids can't use it due to that.

So Sick: Yes I could have. But I didn't because I am waiting for a reply from a mormon, not an article or opinion from wiki.

Linear, the laws are established with the good of all in mind, the majority in most cases, Linear. wityh some exceptions, abortion for instance, because women have been known to hurt themslevs in order to not have babies when abortion is made illegal, so there are some issues there. That law, though anti-christian in value, is actually with the good of all in mind. Most Christians do not accept the ethical validity of it, however neither do they want to see women imprisoned for having abortions in extreme cases.

If you want to impose minority rule you will have to get yourself declared dictator and hold that rule somehow against the opinion of the majority lest you be usurped..

most dictators start by forming an army or militia to take over the existing govt by coup d'etat.

Good luck with it Linear.

Well I guess I have some issues with the idea of the fable.. Moroni et al... it's a nice story I'm sure but until Joseph Smith came along, and even until this day, the native indians, those who are suppose to be the people the story is about, they don't know the story, they have others, and none of their lineage can be found either.

So, that is a bit of a problem.

Have you ever had any serious discussions with psychics? they can speak to spirits, some of them you know... and certain spirits do know all sorts of little details about things... because they actually do exist on a certain level... and they interfere in people's lives etc... they lived at some point in the past etc... but spirits are not always truthful that is the problem.

If this guy moroni is suppose to be an angel that was once a man, why are there no other examples of this in the KJV? You'd think if anyone deserved to be an angel it would be Moses, maybe King David, but no, no such thing exists... and the idea that moroni's brethren are kept in chains and bondage... the only place angels are referred to in that respect is in regard to the fallen angels that kept not their first estate etc. The KJV tells us directly not to harken to revelations (new ideas, revealed things that are not revealed in scripture) of angels. The new age movement is so full of various angels for instance... and most of their teaching will lead a person straight to hell, they go well against what is taught in the bible. How do we follow two contrasting laws without acknowledging in our hearts that we are breaking one of them in order to follow the other? We give lip service to one but we lean on the other?

and then the mormon idea of being god of your own planet after you die from this life.. correct me if I am wrong there... but how is that a companion to the biblical idea of us spending our eternity with Jesus and YHVH in heaven, where God has many 'mansions' and Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us? The devil told Eve she would be like God, I do have to say, it sounds distinctly familar to the promises made by mormonism.

How do you expect to be one of the 10,000's of saints coming on the clouds with Jesus of you are a little god somewhere, no longer just a saint, on your own little planet somewhere?

None of this stuff is in the bible. Moses never knew it either. And Jesus never mentioned it once.

Oops - sorry - not Linear - PWCCA. Not sure I got that right either. The Duchess : )

SoSick,

Where did I say that I wanted the minority to rule? The majority should rule but not at the expense of the minority.

You and I both know this democracy with individual freedom as the cornerstone is a complex proposition. You clearly revealed your understanding of that complexity with your statements about abortion.

This requirement to maintain individual freedom means that the effect of every law on every citizen should be considered. Laws that allow privileges for one group while denying them to others should not be enacted without careful consideration as to the Constitutionality of that law. The Supreme Court exists to prevent the continuation of unConstitutional laws.

Anyway, the question of this thread is:

Why do Evangelical Christians want to enact laws to restrict "unChristian" activities but don't want to enact laws that restrict the biggest unChristian activities of all...namely non-Christian faiths?

....The majority should rule but not at the expense of the minority.....


Linear, if a certain thing, that is perceived to be for the good fo all infringes on the 'rights' of some people somehwre, rights that are in conflict with what is perceieved to be in the best interest of society, then tha is just the way it has to be.

I don't think you'll find a single law on the books that someone somewhere doesn;t feel slighted by. The thief wants to steal. the murderer wants to kill. The liar wants to cheat. A man somewhere wants to have a bestial relationship with his neighbors dog. And the homosexual wants to marry and teach his ways to Christian children by forcing acceptance of his lifestyle upon them.

If this were truly Sodom it would be possible because of majority acceptance of all those thuinsg already but apparently we are not quite there yet.

though you may find Christians hypocritical fro allowing other religions to exist beside tem, most Christians feel quite teh opposite. We do believe God has a plan. forcing our beliefs upon others, forcing them to 'believe' is not something we believe is possible, as in islam for instance. Christians believe that faith is a matter of the heart, an individual choice.. a work of God even. so, if muslims want to build a mosque next door to a christian church, that is fine, that will give us an opportunuity to get to know and share with our muslim neighbors.

We simply love them more than you do Linear, more than you love Christians or persons of any religion, no matter their religion, and because we love them, they will accept us and maybe someday even become one of us, as the Lord leads them. We do respect their faith even if we don't fully agree with it. There is absolutely no requiremnt within Christianity that says all people must be Christians. If people desire to worship other gods, even unto their eternity, that is their choice Linear... in our eyes if at least we give them a chance to hear about Jesus then we have done what the Lord has required of us. But there is no guarantee they will listen, ever. It's ok Linear, really it is. you should try being as tolerant yourself. a little bit of love for those you perceive as your enemy today... it goes a long way Linear.. try inviting someone you don't like at all out to dinner sometime. You'll feel differently about them when your imagination isn't running overtime. Everyone has a story to tell.

I think I'm starting to see where you are coming from Linear. I do believe in freedoms, too. But I don't believe in same sex marriage either. Sodomy use to be illegal. It technically still is in some states as far as I know. The US Army didn't even allow for it. Now they have a don't ask, don't tell policy. At basic training I use to have to shower with the other ladies in a big shower room and had to just tune out cause I've always been modest. There was apparently a lesbian among us. Never knew for sure who but finally figured it out, I believe. I would never just shower in front of another guy other than my husband.... It use to freak me out when they would talk about how we might have to all strip down if we'd been under chemical attack. Now they practically have coed basic training. They don't sleep in the same room but aren't separated like we were. That may seem off track and void of a point... I'm not real focused today cause I need to be helping my husband paint. But because of how things are mixed up more you are seeing murders of pregnant women. Its not right to me to be put in those situations even as opposite sex and kind of creepy to think you have to be subjected to leering eyes of the same sex in situations you normally wouldn't. (This lesbian did end up asking me to go away with her after Basic.....)

I am kind to homosexuals. But I do not see it as normal for them or for society. If anything I've seen their agenda pushed onto kids through curriculum. It would not constitute a normal marriage or family. I can see the argument loophole here in that even heterosexual couples need to sometimes adopt, but you are affecting a child bringing them into a homosexual relationship. It is so confusing to kids. I see them. Kids that would never have even considered being homosexual are experimenting with it due to its prevalance in society. There are physiological reasons anal sex is, obviously, not healthy. And for emotional and most importantly, spiritual reasons it is not healthy. We are not made that way. It is not natural. I don't believe its healthy for those practicing it and I don't think their agenda is healthy for society. I have strong feelings about this irregardless of my religious beliefs - but my religious beliefs teach me about the sanctity of the family. In my faith we even believe it can continue into eternity. But as a statement made by leaders of our church state - there are no female spirits trapped in male bodies or vice versa.

Anyway - for those reasons....I do believe that it will bring our society down. I love America Linear.

In 1995, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued “The Family: A Proclamation to the World.” This proclamation is a declaration and reaffirmation of doctrines and practices that prophets have stated repeatedly throughout the history of the Church. It contains principles that are vital to the happiness and well-being of every family. Family members should study the proclamation and should live by its precepts.

“We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.

“All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

“In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.

“The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

“We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’s eternal plan.

“Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. ‘Children are an heritage of the Lord’ (Psalms 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, to teach them to love and serve one another, to observe the commandments of God and to be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

“The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

“We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

“We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society”

Lying is not against the law, otherwise advertising agents would be out of a job.
Stealing has never been a right, nor murder, nor bestiality(cruelty to animals). All of those are examples of things that trample on other's rights.
How is the legalization of same-sex marriage forcing the acceptance of their lifestyle on Christian children any more than the legalization of the Muslim religion is forcing the acceptance of the Muslim lifestyle on Christian children. It might be better to answer this in the same-sex marriage thread that I started.

If it is not any different then why are you not in support of ridding this country of the Muslim, Buddhist, New Age religions?

....but not share with our homosexual neighbors...


This is nice rhetoric and I believe it is the way many Christians feel about people of other faiths. However that does not really explain the contrary actions taken by people of the Christian faith. How can you show tolerance toward people who break one moral code and no tolerance toward people who break a different one of your moral codes?

You can argue and argue but the real cause of America's backsliding is the worship of a false god.

The false god I am referring to is money, which can be worshiped regardless of what religion you belong to.

Actually Linear, false advertising is most defintely illegal.

Some homosexuals do attend church. The large majority however hate Christians and don't mix with them. They have chosen to live that way, their own choice. There is no sign on the church door that says 'Homos stay out'.



Such as? You really have to be more direct. Vague inferences are just you and your game playing, you making accusations without anyone really knowing what you are accusing them of.

I would probably agree with that.

However, if read the very first post of the thread you'll notice its actually about Linear and his pillar of baloney accusations and pretentious beliefs about others more than anything else anyway.

Got the DE, gd!

Kelp and Redmond too.

Like it!

My post here is addressing Linear's.

I'd like to point out once again, that it's not down to "my" opinion, but God's word in the bible. Why must I keep pointing this out? I am not forcing anybody into anything, do you not have a free will as I do? As a Christian, it is right to inform and warn people if that is what we have been told to do by Christ should they lose their way and ultimately their own souls.... What kind of a Christian does not? when Christ has given such dire warnings?

I too will have to account not only for my sins, but also my "ommissions". Christ never forced anybody either, He gave strong truths and many walked away from Him (some did worse to Him as you know). They did not want to hear that which did not tickle their ears. Christ gave us truths, filled with hope and the glory of the afterlife/ressurection, but also other truths, harsh and sobering.

Now, if it's ok for those on here to express their contrary to Christ views and not have that seen as force....why is it suddenly "force" when I express God's word from the bible? How is it "not forcing" when it's a viewpoint of "unbelief" or "liberalism", yet it's forcing if it's "fundamental Christianity"....one rule for you guys and one rule for the rest of us?

What one may consider as a "right" or "sexual freedom", may not be seen as a right or "freedom" from our side, and certainly, if we are to believe Christ, is anything BUT "freedom" and "rights", but instead captivity in sin which leads to eternal death, which Christ died on the cross to redeem us from (should we accept it). What you may consider "forcing" from fundamentalists, is very much misinterpreted and perhaps deliberately so. The gospel is preached for the good of others and the hope of saving souls, not for their undoing! However, if this is the way you wish to accuse, then one could turn it back just as easily, considering sin is hardly a "right" or "freedom", unless of course Christ lied and died in vain.

You may wish to present fundamental Christianity as "force", but the opposite is actually true. The amount of filth that is forced onto us all (and children) on a daily basis through TV, books, society itself speaks volumes..... I can hardly watch television anymore without it. If I want to avoid that, I have to go out of my way to do so, or turn the TV off. THere is ONE channel that preaches the gospel on my TV, and some bibles lying on my bookshelf, neither of which force me into viewing or reading, but are an invitation always. Yet there are many more reading/viewing material of adultery/fornication and total disregard to God and His commandments on a daily basis throughout so many other areas of life. Great for the kids eh? And yet you talk about the force of "fundamental Christianity"...when in fact, the opposite seems to prevail "unnoticed". I actually have to seek any Christianity out, search for it and hold onto it! I'll tell you where I get my sanity. Not from this degraded/corrupted and "liberal" society, but THE BIBLE, prayer/Christ and those like-minded in Christ(whom I consider brothers and sisters in Christ).

If it was down to my personal flawed opinion, outside of Christ? I wouldn't have much of an issue with homosexuality, NOR fornication. I'd have no ultimate reason to do so. If we arose without purpose and without an ultimate law giver, then we can decide for ourselves and your "rights" do not have to be "mine" or anybody else's. We can do whatever WE decide is "ok".

However, this is not about my wordly and flawed eyed opinion. This is very much down to what God Himself has commanded and stated throughout the bible and it is most definitely HIS business! As much as we may wish to cherry pick, the bible is not a smorgus board. Do you really think that I find it easy to try and comply with everything? Of course not. Because I'm a sinner and I have temptations/weaknesss like everybody else. Problems with purity and all those things that I'm sure we all battle with. Now, is it "sexual freedom"? or is it a gift that has no right to be misused/abused from a loving God who gave that to each of us to express responsibly and within marriage for bonding/procreation? I need to wake up and quit seeing things through the eyes of "men", and open my mind and my heart to an unlimited God who died on my account (on yours too).

Men are limited, flawed, sinful. God is unlimited, loving, perfect, selfless (died on a cross for me (and you)....this is why when people who close their minds and hearts to Christ, consider this "open minded" which winds up meaning absolutely nothing and becomes nothing more than a contradictory cliche and a flawed one at that. I can open my mind to anything (to drugs too if I want). Does that make me "open minded"? Am I "open minded" because I'm "willing to accept anything, so long as it's not God"? or it's "outside of His will for us"? Is someone being open minded when they experiment sexually, going so far as to try out animals and children too? You see how the "open minded" comments start to look absoultely ludicrous when they are exposed for what they are?

I try instead to open my mind and my heart to the one whom knows all things. Opening my mind up to the things of the world got me nowhere, except on a winding slope downwards, remaining in a state of blindness, inertia and deadness. Christ most definitely IS light and IS life.

All persons are called to holiness without exception. Nothing is impossible with God. Even the worst sinner can become a saint with the grace of God. Part of this process is humility and being honest with ourselves and God and opening ourselves up to His grace, so that He can work in us. We all have the tendency to rebel (after the fall). Our sin nature is something God encourages us to battle and at the end of it all the rewards far outweigh the temporary difficulties and falls we have during our lifetime (which He is always there to help us back up).

Satan himself rebelled and encourages us to do likewise. It is a spiritual battle more than anything else! It's not a bad thing, I'd like to have something to show for what God has done for me and promised for me. If God did not allow consequences for sin and free will, we would never grow and learn from our own sin, or anybody else's. Our maturity would be stunted spiritually. Christ set the example and had a tough life. Nobody can ever say "God doesn't know how it feels". He knows intimately.

Regarding the sanctity of marriage/adultery:















On leading others astray concerning the biblical word of God, through the prophets/witnesses inspired by the Holy Spirit:



I hope that might be enough for now Linear, there are more, but I am tired.

you know what also, speaking of false advertising being illegal... the homosexual claim that homosexuality is a healthy lifestyle.. that is false advertising isn't it? Especially when it is promoted in writing and given to innocent and impressionable school chidren without any mention of possible side effects from certain types of behavior..

Anyone who has ever done internal cleanses, parasite cleanses, colonics and/or enemas knows for a fact that sodomy, for instance, is a very dangerous form of behavior that can cause some pretty serious health issues and spread some pretty hefty diseases. even oral sex, likewise.

We hold candy bar manufacturers to higher standards than educators.

I agree sosick, but what many people fail to realise (or want to acknowledge) is not just the physical aspects of it being unnatural (even in nature), but the spiritual aspects and consequences of indulging/engaging in such behaviours. We have been warned, and are without excuse, since ignorance (after being informed, particularly from God's word) can no longer be feigned.

The bible does not condemn those with homosexual tendencies/feelings, but rather engaging in the act. many of us have weaknesses through the fall and God is fully aware of that. And in fact, for those people, it is a trial. Just as it is for somebody who is ill and missed out on any relationship, ultimately hoping for marriage. Someone who has been unable to conceive children (not for want of trying). etc. Many many of us are injured in one way or the other. But through God's grace, we have the means and strength to battle and the reward for doing so, particularly to those who suffer more temptations/weaknesses than others, will be beyond anything this world could ever hope to offer.

This life is temporary and death is certain.

Well it's a hard world, Bex. especially when you calculate in the way people mistreat each other.

Even Jesus did stumble under the cross, a common man helped him carry it...

Jeanie,

Yes I saw that movie and thought the aramaic sounded like native american too. thing is, like I mentioned, there is a lot of archeological evidence that suggests at least some of the native americans were in fcat decended from hebrews, and phonecians.

you can find a lot of info and photos of artifacts on the web.

http://gdrocks.org/default.aspx

I think given the evidence we have today, there really isn't much argumnet about it except by people who don't want to admit our common descent from one people, for their own personal agenda reasons.

However, regarding the book of mormon and angels, I also have to recommend caution. Because surely if you believe the bible you believe angels do exist, that they are with us, for better or worse, that evil is a presence as well as an idea... and I am well awre of the fact that the devil, who is also an angel and can appear as an angel of light, the devil mixes fact with fiction, lies with truth... and as in the case of so many false revelations/religions, he will declare so much truth and just enough of a lie to entrap people very skillfully, but in a way that leads them very much in the wrong direction with so much truth and just a few little lies... like you will be as God, or a god... The very one item that caused the downfall of Adam and Eve. Because of course who would not want to be like God, so perfect? So holy? but there is only one God and he isn't planning on sharing the throne to the best of my knowledge. In fact, Satan himself was tossed out of heaven for declaring himself to be god as well and for desiring the worship of mankind. In the wilderness, Jesus is tempted by the devil. The devil tells Jesus that he will give him many kingdoms if only he would worship him.

Matthew 4: 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Joseph Smith was also accomplished mason. Brigham Young, who succeeded him, was a master mason. Both share backgrounds, interest and experiences quite similar to those of Aleister Crowley (the admitted satanist and also a master mason) who also received revelations from angels, having an encounter an entity known as Aiwass.

Surely, even the virgin mother had revelations from angels, or an angel. The bible tells us to test the spirits.

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

There are major differences between the Jesus of Mormonism and the Jesus of the KJV. As well as major differences with God, YHVH, himself.


There's a page here that lists some
http://mmoutreachinc.com/mormons/morchristjesus.html

Exactly how do mormons deal with the differences between mormon theology and the KJV in order to make the claim that they are Christians, when the label 'Christian' itself implies that one is a follower of Christ as the bible teaches Christ Jesus, not a follower of Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, or even King David or Solomon?

I think those are probably some of the most basic questions most mainstream Christians have about Mormonism, that are rarely or never fully addressed by mormons.

There are a few warnings given about other gospels in the KJV, here is one:

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
---

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. ...

.. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.




anyway, nothing personal.. just in case you weren't aware..

There's even this UFO contactee guy by the name of Billy Meir who supposedly discovered some writings in Jerusalem in 1963, after his contacts with 'angels/aliens', called 'The Talmud Jmmanuel' which is the story of a man named Jmmanuel, written supposedly 2,000 years ago on Aramaic scrolls. and of course it is suggested by some that the Talmud Jmmanuel is the basis for the Gospel of Matthew and contains the original logia and teachings of Jmmanuel who, in subsequent years, became known as Jesus.

I mean, you know, Jeanie, this type of stuff goes on and on... a brand new jesus appears every year since the world first heard the name... the bible warns us directly the devil will do this..

EXCERPTS FROM THE TALMUD OF JMMANUEL
The Talmud of Jmmanuel: The Clear Translation in English and German (Paperback)
by Eduard Meier, J. H. Ziegler (Translator), B. L. Greene (Translator)

Chapter 5

The Sermon on the Mount

I. When Jmmanuel saw the people following him, he went up a hill and sat down; and his disciples came to him.

2. And he taught them, saying:

3. "Blessed are those who are rich in spirit and recognize the truth, for life is theirs.

4. "Blessed are those who endure hardship, for they shall thus recognize truth and be comforted.

5. "Blessed are the spiritually balanced, for they shall possess knowledge.

6. "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for truth and knowledge, for they shall be satisfied.

7. "Blessed are those who live according to the laws of nature, for they live according to the plan of Creation.

8. "Blessed are those who have a clear conscience, for they need not fear.

9. "Blessed are those who know about Creation, for they are not enslaved by false teachings.

10. "Blessed are the righteous, for nature is subject to them.

I I. "Blessed are you if, on my account and because of our teachings, people revile and persecute you and speak all manner of evil against you; thus they lie about the teachings.

12. "Be of good cheer and take comfort; this life and the next life will reward you. For so have the belittlers of the truth persecuted the prophets who were before you, and so will they also persecute you.

13. "You are the salt of the Earth, and if the salt loses its flavor with what would one salt? It is useless henceforth, except it be thrown out and stepped on by the people.

14. "You are the light of the world, and consider: The city that lies on top of a mountain cannot be hidden.

15. "One does not light a candle and place it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; thus it shines for all those who are in the house.

16. "Likewise your light shall shine before the people, so they see your good deeds and recognize the truth of your knowledge.

17. "Do not think that I have come to do away with the law or the prophet; I have come not to undo, but to fulfill and to reveal the knowledge.

18. "Truly, I say to you: Until the heavens and the Earth vanish, neither a letter nor a dot of the law of Creation and the laws of nature will vanish, until all is fulfilled.

19. "Whosoever violates one of the smallest of the laws or directives and teaches the people falsely, will be called the smallest; but whosoever spreads the teachings truthfully will be called great and will receive the reward of the spirit.

20. "I tell you: If your righteousness does not exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not receive the reward of the spirit and of life.

21. "You have heard that it was said to your ancestors:' You shall not kill; but whosoever kills shall be found guilty by the courts.'

22. "However, I say to you: Exercise justice according to the natural laws of Creation, so that you find the judgment in logic.

...

...THE TWELVE COMMANDMENTS

Chapter 23 (continued)

The Greatest Commandment

31. But when the Pharisees heard that Jmmanuel had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered and deliberated.

32. And one among them, a scribe, tested him by asking, Jmmanuel, which is the foremost commandment in the law?"

33. Jmmanuel asked in return, "Whose law are you thinking of, the law of the emperor, or are you thinking of the law of god, or are you thinking of the law of Creation?"

34. The scribe said, "l am thinking of the laws of all three."

35. But Jmmanuel said, "The highest directive in the law of Creation is this: Achieve the wisdom of knowledge, so that you may wisely follow the laws of Creation.

36. "But the highest commandment of the law of god is this: You shall honor god as the ruler of the three human lineages and obey his laws, for he is their king of wisdom and a good and just counselor.

37. "And the highest command of the laws of the emperor is this: You shall be obedient to the emperor, follow his laws and give to him the tithe, because he is the ruler over the people and their guardian and protector

38. "These are the foremost and greatest commandments in the laws of the three, as applied to their categories.

39. "But the other directive, equal to the first, is this: You shall consider only Creation as omnipotent, for it alone is constant in all things and therein is timeless.

40. "The emperor and god are transitory, but Creation is eternal.


It goes on and on:
http://exopolitics.blogs.com/exopolitics_billy_meier_c/2005/10/excerpts_from_t.html

and it's nothing more than a mockery of scripture and Christ, sort of like the book of mormon.

Mormon means devil in japanese btw so they don't generally call themselves that over there. Some people say Nephi is short for nephilim.

And there's even this so-called christian guy going around various christian churches these days who claims to be led by some angel named 'Emma' and his rather odd stories sound like this:


Bentley’s angels sound more like descriptions we read of aliens from those who have had close encounters of the third kind. He can be seen giving his wild story of being abducted by them and then operated on in what he describes as looking like “an autopsy room.”

“I’m wrestling with God he says ‘get in the pillar of fire’ so I get in to the pillar of fire – as soon as I get in to the pillar of fire my entire body starts going RAAAAAAR and I go up through the church roof in the pillar of fire, it’s transporting me- I’m in the pillar of fire, its like beam me up, up through this pillar, I’m through the church roof and all of a sudden I, I land, when I say land I mean crash on an operating table in heaven … I’m in this room appear four angels … two angels stood on the other side of the operating table and honest truth they wrenched me down, I don’t know what it was they tied me down with but all of a sudden my hands and my ankles were fastened to this table but don’t tell me, this is a little graphic. … And all of a sudden I hear this sound like a miter saw rrrrrrrr a miter saw like one of those things before brain surgery, they rrrr . y’know they cut your skull , they pick this thing up and… they stuck it in me right here on my neck and it didn’t hurt but here’s what happened they went (sound of cutting him open) right down to my lowards and all of sudden my stomach went pooch and everything inside of me popped out onto the table, my heart, my liver like everything. And I’m lying there and you want to scream because you think it should hurt but it doesn’t hurt. and you’re lying there and you’re arrr arrr all your insides are, here’s the strangest thing. so then here’s what happens the angels start taking these white boxes… and they start stuffing these things inside of me. They’re stuffing these boxes all over and I heard the verse ‘I desire truth in the inward parts.’”

http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/a-new-obsession-with-angels/


sad thing is, a lot of Christians take him seriously. He may be serious, but those angels are not of God and he is either very deceived or in league with them, perhaps believing he will get some kingdom as a reward, his own planet, who knows...

Should we start doing a comparison count of yours and Pwcca's insulting remarks to see who comes out on top?

I understand that you believe I am accusing all Christians of contrary behavior but I am not. Only the ones who are trying to restrict personal freedoms of US citizens.

Joseph Smith was nothing but a farm boy who learned lots of skills (mostly farming) from being poor and having to support himself. I've never heard anything about him having anything to do with masonry. And Brigham Young was a carpenter. I will look into that, but even if he was skilled in that it doesn't mean he was affiliated with the free mason stuff... That's news to me and doubtful - but irregardless, twisted. Even the Lord told Joseph Smith his name would be had for both good and evil. Lots of inaccuracies have been spread about him. Actually he was spoken of in the Bible....the apostasy was, too, as well as a need for a restoration. I know even you realize that things changed and have not been the same since not too long after Christ's church was established.

As far as our concept of Jesus Christ, it is no different other than that we believe He also existed in the pre-existence or pre-mortal realm with all of us as a spirit child of Heavenly Father. We see Him and our Heavenly Father as being two distinct beings and the holy ghost as a separate being as well (only without a body). Concerning satan - he was our brother in spirit. He fell because he was jealous of Jesus - who was from the beginning Heavenly Father's firstborn even in spirit. Jesus was chosen from the beginning to be our Savior. lucifer didn't want us to carry out the plan as it was presented where we would all have a choice. his idea was to make sure every one of us made it back to Heaven in God's presence through force but he wanted to get all the glory and pretty much be our God. He rebelled and turned evil because of his huge ego and pride. He was cast out of heaven and onto this earth as a spirit along with the 3rd of the hosts of heaven who followed him. They will never get bodies - that is why they want to possess us. They are very bitter, angry, jealous, and want to destroy us. But are allowed to be here until the Millenial Reign in order for us to be tested. They will eventually be sent to outer darkness. We kept our first estate and are now here with bodies separate from God physically at least to prove ourselves and learn to live by faith - but we do have our spirits to guide us - our spirits which once lived with Heavenly Father and Jesus...(our spirits know the truth....) and of course we have the Holy Ghost to guide us. Some other faiths think we don't revere Christ the same due to our belief that He existed with us in the pre-mortal life but we were still not on the same level as Him even there. He is our Lord and Savior and always will be. He even created this earth under Heavenly Father's direction.

We use the KJV...(but that is not what you are quoting from...)and I know about testing spirits. : )

Let me look into what you are talking about. I appreciate your concern...

I will explain, too, how we look at the afterlife as far as our potential. I didn't even know about that until I was baptized. What drew me to the church was wanting to know and understand what happens when we die, the afterlife and as I searched for the truth I could not understand why there were so many churches interpreting the Bible so many different ways. I was told by one preacher that we were all dirty rags.... We are children of God. Anyway - it isn't quite that simple as far as your question... I will be back.

You are not in the US so you are not part of the movement that is trying to enact laws to restrict the freedom of certain groups of people.

I have said that there is nothing wrong with you speaking your opinion. In fact, I support you fully in your right to speak freely. You can share Christ with anyone you like and I have no objection to that even if I disagree with you. What I object to is those that want to force others to act Christian by using the legal system to do so.

However, if you decry anti-Christian behavior yet say that you have no problem with the teaching of non-Christian faiths, then it might seem a bit hypocritical. I don't think you have ever done that though.


I never said that it was "force" when you express your interpretation of "God's view from the Bible". In fact this is the third time I have said to you that I fully support your being able to do so.

What you or anyone else believes is classified as a right is irrelevant. What is preached about those behaviors is irrelevant in this discussion. Preaching is not legislating, this conversation is about trying to legislate behavior for one group because it is a sin while refusing to try and legislate behavior for another group even though that behavior is also a big sin.
Do you think it would be better in your country if the Christian churches could force people into pews or write laws like "no divorce unless there has been marital unfaithfulness"?

If you can turn the TV off, and not read the books or magazines, how is this lifestyle being "forced" on you? Is the presence of two guys walking hand in hand forcing that lifestyle on your children any more than the evangelist in Cathedral Square is forcing his religion on the little Muslim children walking by? You made the statement that you expressing your views in public isn't forcing those views on anyone...and I agree with that. How can you now say that those two guys are forcing their lifestyle on your children?


You have to seek out your Christianity? How many churches are in your town? When did they go into hiding? How much are black market Bibles in your town? When did your government make Christianity illegal?

You are not required to accept any of "liberal society's" allowable behavior. The same law that allows Playboy to publish their magazine allows the Gideons to place their Bibles in hotels. In fact, you can give Bibles or the Koran to children but not a Playboy, so the Bible and the Koran are allowed more freedom. No one has legislated that you have to buy and read a Playboy so that smut is not forced on you.

On a side note: Do you complain that the Koran is so freely available?


You have decided to live your life by your interpretation of the Bible. That's fine. You can even declare to me and everyone else that we should live our lives by your interpretation of the Bible. I have no problem with that. I would have a problem if you tried to change the laws of your country so that I must live my life by your interpretation of the Bible. The changing of the laws is the crux of my complaint in this thread, not your voicing of your beliefs or opinions.

Worshiping another god is outside of His will, yet you see no Christians trying to legislate that out of the country.


Is there something about homosexual behavior that automatically gets Christians thinking about bestiality and pedophilia? You realize that animals and children cannot give informed consent, don't you? So that type of behavior falls in the same category as rape.

I guess I'll see when you come up with an example or analogy that actually applies to the subject at hand.

Does this mean you believe we should have laws that restrict sin? Should we outlaw pornography? Adultery? Should we outlaw alcohol and close all the bars? If we do that shouldn't we also close down the temples to other gods?

Does He? When did he ever doubt the existence of God? When was He ever out of communication with God? That's two things He didn't experience.

From what I've found so far, there was some association with free masons but likely for the building of the temples. JS was not himself a mason. I did find something in my Encyclopedia of Joseph Smith's Teachings.

Heber C.Kimball said: "There is a similarity of priesthood in masonry. Brother Joseph (Smith) says Masonry was taken from priesthood, but has become degenerated." (Stanley B. Kimball, Heber C. Kimball: Mormon Patriarch and Pioneer, p.85, standardized.)

Words of Benjamin F. Johnson: He (Joseph Smith) told me Freemasonry, as at present, was the apostate endowments, as sectarian religion was the apostate religion. (Johnson, My Life's Review, p. 96).

I also found where Joseph allowed lodge meetings in his office. My assumption is that the association in the first place (why they were around) was for building purposes. Joseph Smith oversaw the building of 2 temples during his life - not an easy task then. They definitely utilized skilled artisans....

I didn't know about this, but was apparently right about all that with my statement some ways back about thinking they were trying to hold onto something precious that was lost through the ages. It was, however, lost as was the authority of the priestood and in the process, changed. I mentioned before, too, that my father-in-law associated with them...but he was not a member of the church. But I do believe all in all its original purpose was motivated by good (masons). I know nothing about the pagan rituals the movie portrays (The DaVinci Code) and so you know our temple ordinances are nothing like that.... Having said that I won't discuss temple ordinances in this forum. They are considered sacred and I don't want to have them held up for ridicule.

Linear: Does He? When did he ever doubt the existence of God? When was He ever out of communication with God? That's two things He didn't experience.
_________________________

Granted Christ had one up on us being intimately connected with the Father throughout His life - but there was a period when he was on the cross that he was left alone. And it was the hardest time of His life. His time in the Garden of Gethsemane was so difficult we can't comprehend.. The medical condition of bleeding through your pores means he was dealing with so much trauma (taking on all the sorrows and sins of the world) that it would've killed a meer human. That medical condition also caused his skin to become very delicate (the JAMA here did a study on it) and THEN he was flogged. Yes - others have been crucified and tortured in their lives. Jesus, though, did it willingly when He could've technically removed Himself from the situation and coupled with what He dealt with in the garden suffered more than we could even live through. He actually reached a point he prayed that the cup could be removed from Him...but He had to carry it all out to finish his work and then overcome death. Which He did do...willingly.

That story = the dude with his innards removed, sounds pretty strange to me too....

The Book of Mormon is not a mockery of the Bible or Christ. You would know that if you read it.

There is a lot of weird stuff out there and with all due respect its ludicrous to even be compared with that nonsense.

By their fruits ye shall know them. Check out OUR websites. There is nothing weird.

SoSick, I'm checking out that website. We do believe, of course, that Jesus was born in Bethlehem...of course. A footnote I found states concerning Alma 7: 10 - Bethlehem, where Jesus was born, was a small village some six miles from the city of Jerusalem. It was within the area referred to by the people of that day as "the land of Jerusalem" (see Hugh Nibley, An Approach to the Book of Mormon, 101-2).

In the Book of Mormon its my assumption its also put that way to make the point to the people Alma is speaking to that they are from where He is born...(the area). But we don't think he was born literally in Jerusalem. We believe the Bible. Some wording of the Bible has definitely been changed...even you are quoting from a modern interpretation to make it easier to read, but nothing we believe is contrary to the same basic tenets. I have an appt. in a couple of hours that I need to get ready for and then will address the other points made.

One question? Do you believe in baptism by immersion? There are lots of differences with that one. No point other than that even with the same Biblical Jesus other Christian religions also believe in, many of his teachings have been altered. (We do believe in baptism by immersion, by the way).

P.S. - I am not basing my beliefs about the Book of Mormon on the movie mentioned....just find it interesting.

BTW - in case anyone is reading my picture of the Mona Lisa into any belief system....it was simply the only picture I could find that I liked on the choices. Tried to download a personal one but couldn't figure out how to get it small enough. Has nothing to do with The Davinci Code in case anyone is wondering...there has been some talk about Freemasons...no relation.

I thought it was the moanin Lisa. Moanin because of the fibromyalgia.

hmmm.. well so, Jesus appears to all these indians after his resurrection... what year exactly was that? and then the white man arrives in great numbers 1400-1500 years later.. and gosh darn, the indians, not a single one of them have heard of Jesus yet. They build totem poles and initiate shamans and worship the spirits of wolves.

I guess Jesus didn't do a very good job with them. No one, not a single indian nor a single white man knew anything about Lehi's travels to the new world or Moroni until Joseph Smith informed them. sounds rather odd to me really.

hmmm... still to this day the mormon church has not been established among them to any degree that we can visibly notice. they do however have large numbers attending what the mormons call 'the apostate church'. I guess Jesus prophecy to them was not true, Jesus must be a false prophet.

Most people I know from full or mixed native american descent are baptists or nondenominational christians, not mormons. The indians, most sincerely, were not blond enough or fair enough to even be considered as members of the early mormon church.