News you won't see in controlled mainstream media.

Hi,

I am new to this forum, but have been reading posts extensively for a few days now. Love the info on this forum--this is the best site I have found on the Internet so far concerning amalgams, etc.

Russ as a side note, just want to thank you for putting this forum together--you are a Godsend for so many of us that are dealing with these issues and that have been told by friends, family and the medical community that we are insane and that nothing is really wrong with us; that it is all in our heads, and that we are chasing another stupid conspiracy theory.

(Sorry for getting side-tracked with my question.) My question is--does anyone know specifically what kinds of materials are used in the CERAC method of crowning? I have noticed that they refer to the material as a 'porcelain' material, but they also refer to them as 'non-metal'. I am wondering if the 'non-metal' reference is due to the base (post) component, or if this truly means that this type of porcelain is totally absent of aluminum, etc. I am considering replacing my 3 gold crowns with CERAC crowns in a couple of months, but don't want to substitute one bad type of material in my mouth with another one. After replacing my crowns, would also like to replace my 2 amalgams that sit right next to my gold crowns (makes for some nice metal taste in my mouth, along with electrogalvanism and mercury seepage).

I have noticed that Bex has posted quite a bit of good info on CERAC's in a few of their posts--would you possible have any more info on this from the dentists that you have spoken to?

Thanks,
Jason

HI there, well there is really no such dental material that is "truly" totally non metal if you consider some of the metals come in the form of oxides etc. .

They ALL contain metals to some degree, in some form. The key is to find out what they are and what form. Aluminium oxide gets a bad press because of the word "aluminium", but aluminium oxide is actually a completely different form and has been called a "non metal". Here is a website discussing aluminium oxide (alumina) in more detail - http://www.vident.com/general.php?id_pages=205

So, teh fact they advertise cerec as an alternative material for those allergic to metals and have other problems, would be due to the fact that aluminium oxide is not the ionic form and also that it is in many areas of our diet, (salt, baking powder, cheese etc) plus it's in soil also and then goes into vegetables. OUr skeleton contains it. So one cannot really avoid it, but certainly you'd not want to ge a dental material leaching aluminium out on top of consuming it in diet. However, cerec does not leach out the contents, plus the aluminium not in a form that is soluable.

But as I've said, I do not believe there is any dental material that is ideal and all of them contain metals and chemicals to some degree. And people will react so some degree. The key is to find one least reactive with you and one that is hard enough to not wear down or leach out the stuff contained within.
Composites are far from ideal, they can contain formadehyde, barium, phenol, fluoride etc etc that can leach out because of the composite being so much softer. Also many composites contain aluminium oxide also, it is very common and WILL come out because the material is so much softer and will definitely add to our consumption of it.

So to my mind, all dental materials are a risk. I'd go by reputation, how long they've been around, others comments, getting a serum test and talking to biologic dentists about them.

Here is one link to a dentist I've spoken to who uses them in his office http://www.shdc.com.au/

A Dr Wayne King - http://mercuryfreedentistry.com/default.asp?page=cerec

There is another dentist I emailed who I think is behind the entire cerec creation and been using it for 18 years, he trains other dentists in using it also. I have NO idea who he is now because I came across him accidentally on the internet and emailed him, but my computer went down with viruses a while back and I have lost the email from him, among all my corresponces, so I will try and locate him and who he was and pass on his email to you. If I can, he'd be the best, he is glad to discuss this material. He thinks it's the best dental material in dentistry today and told me in 18 years, he'd not had ONE patient react. (personally I wouldn't go by that so much, many patients can react to anything and not say a thing.).

You can look up cerec porcelain bicompatibility online if you want and you should find many dental office using it and you could email them yourself. But look at the info on this stuff online.

aluminium oxide is in many many things, not just dental materials, but certainly, probably safer contained within the hardened material of a ceramic like cerec in case someone is afraid it will add to their consumption.

I wouldn't guarantee anything completely though. There is bound to be people who will react to any dental material and it's up to the person to get as much testing done and research beforehand.



I

Thanks for the reply and the links Bex, this is exactly the kind of info that I was looking for. I also agree with your advice on the biocompatibility materials testing, as I think it is cheap insurance considering how many thousands of dollars it will cost to get new crowns. I need to make sure that this gets done right the first time, so that I will not be in the same position that I am in now, looking for replacement crowns again shortly down the road.

Thanks,
Jason

Hi Jason, you're welcome. If you want, you could email this man - a W.J. Clifford MS, member of IAOMT (International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology). His full name is Walter Clifford.

You can contact him via email
Cliffordwjclifford@ccrlab.com

He is highly informative and helpful. He runs a serum testing lab in USA, so he can help you with that if you want the test done by his lab in particular (though there are other places). HE can send you the information, forms and waht to do etc.

He also knows what is contained in dental materials and can help you understand what is in them and any potential for reactions depending on what you're sensitivities are, or if you a generally enquiring. He knows cerec porcelain also.

So, it's there if you wish to ask him anything about any of this.

Cheers.

Thanks again for the additional info Bex. I have noticed while reading through many of the posts on the forum that you have provided us with A LOT of helpful information. I want to say thanks for taking the time to share your wisdom and the results of your research efforts with all of us. It greatly helps, as all of this is very time-consuming, and it really makes a difference to get pointed in the right direction, or to just have research results confirmed by someone else who has been there before.

Ironically, I just checked into Clifford testing yesterday. The biologic dentist where I plan on having my amalgams removed recommended this place for materials testing. They said that the test costs around $300, so I am going to see if there is a way that I can get a referral and get my health insurance to pay for at least part of it. Even if not though, it will be money well spent. I will also send Mr. Clifford an e-mail, and get his input on the Cerac crowns as well, as I'm pretty convinced that this will be the route for crown replacement that I will be taking, unless the test results come back with a surprise.

Thanks again,
Jason

Hi Jason, no worries, I enjoy passing on anything I can that I think might be of help. I don't have any qualifications or true blue knowledge from universities or anything else, just basically going through this myself and you find things out along the way as you know yourself. Mistakes etc.

Good luck with the test and if it's any consolation, I am a complete mess with chemical/metal sensitivities and on my test the cerecs came back "ok". But again, as I do not have the stuff in my mouth, I will never really know, so I am ultra nervous about the whole thing. I'd feel sick if it turned out bad and I'd been telling people it was good.

But the reputation of it, what I've read, and so many dentists are using it (biologic), the hardness and duribility of it, the apparenty biocompatibility of it, the fact it's closest to human enamel (probably in structure more than antyhing) etc etc, and my own blood test results leads me to believe it might be "ok".

Hope Walter clifford can provide more info. He does not mince words, he will tell it straight, he is not interested in either putting a material down, or making it sound better than it really is. He has no leaning towards any of them, unless of course he knows definitely that certain ones might be generally more biocompatible.

Best wishes and hope it turns out ok for you. If it doesn't and you get the cerec and things go wrong...... hmmmm, you'll know who to blame <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> but I am hoping all will be fine.

Thanks Bex. No worries about the information--I hold myself completely responsible for my own health, as the final decision is up to me, and it is up to me to do my own proper research before putting any foreign materials in my mouth in the first place. I really hold myself mostly responsible for putting in the silver fillings and the gold crowns to begin with, because I took the easy route and gave implicit trust to the dentists that put them in to begin with. However, this whole experience has taught me very valuable lessons about both trust and also about learning to take responsibility for my own health. It's kind of like that old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me". I now know that I won't be letting the medical establishment fool me a second time, that's for sure. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

It will be at least a couple of months before I will have the money set aside for the Clifford testing, and before I can schedule to have the Cerac crowns put in (assuming that testing goes well), but I will make sure and share my results on the forum once this happens. After that, I hope to have my silver fillings replaced by June of next year--the results of which I will also share, along with my chelation experiences after that.

Thanks,
Jason

Hi Jason, you're welcome. I agree about us taking responsibility for our own health, but regarding silver amalgams, I don't think any of us had much choice over that, most of us were kids when they were put in. Who knew abut toxic dental materials then?

It's just unreal they could even do it in the first place!

Anyway, good luck with your journey in the testing and the replacements! and look forward to hearing about how it goes.

I am probably getting mine done at some point, as well as cavitation surgery (hopefully). But not sure how or who or when.....

Got my reply back from Walter Clifford today. Below is what he had to say about CERAC crowns, as well as some of the other restorative alternatives available:

"There is no such entity in nature as a non-metallic restorative material. NONE WHATSOEVER! (in spite of all of the ads for 'metal-free' restorations). Freshman chemistry courses teach the nature of anions and cations, and anywhere there is an anion, there needs to be a balancing cation. Cations are nearly always metals. There is a substantial difference between frankly reduced (shiny) metal and fully oxidized metal (think sodium in table salt). All restorative products, including ceramics, porcelains, acrylic materials, glass iomomers, etc., will contain metals, albeit they are usually in an oxidized state. CEREC crowns ALL contain oxidized metals. Nearly all CEREC crown materials (we are aware of about 30 different ones) are simply lab-cured and fabricated blanks which are prepared for carving rather than being cast into an impression piece taken from the mouth. In all cases, the resulting crowns will be cemented or bonded into place with similar agents. The CEREC materials are also available in conventional forms for the lab fabricating process using a mouth impression. CEREC crowns are milled at chair-side and can be placed all in one visit. This saves time and is convenient. Otherwise, they are made from the same ingredients as traditional ceramic and porcelain crowns. As to posts, I do not have any extensive list of posts which have been used with crowns. Today, various precious and non-precious alloys can be used to fabricate posts, if needed, and some will be formed from carbon (think aramide) and fiberglass. I suppose stainless steel and aluminum rod stock could be used.

Common metals used in CEREC crowns are the same as used in traditional ceramic and porcelain crowns. The basic lattice structures will either be aluminosilicate (aluminum, silicon and oxygen) or zirconia (zirconium, silicon and oxygen). Used with these basic lattice materials will be one or more other metals such as antimony, barium, boron (metalloid), cerium, cobalt, cadmium, europium, gallium, hafnium, indium, iron, lanthanum, lithium, manganese, molybdenum, neodymium, nickel, niobium, osmium, rhenium, rhodium, rubidium, ruthenium, samarium, strontium, tantalum, titanium, tungsten, vanadium, ytterbium, yttrium and zinc. I'm certain that I have forgotten a few, not to mention the classical presence of copper, gold, palladium, platinum and silver for framework compatibility. Exact composition is determined by manufacturer and brand or trade name."

I think at this point, my decision for replacement crowns would have to be between a zirconium-based CERAC crown, or a Diamondlite crown. I wish that I knew exactly what kinds of metals were contained in the Diamondlite crowns, as it seems that many on this board have used these with success. Would anyone on the forum have any links to any information about the Diamondlite crown composition?

Thanks,
Jason

HI Jason, wow that's a lot of information. Personally I've reached a point where I have no idea what to do or get. But it does seem that they all contain metals.

It's kind of put me off actually, but I guess it won't matter what material I get, they all have draw backs.

I don't know what's in diamond lite, but yes it is popular and used a lot. Seems to be highly biocompatible. Cerec is too so I hear.

I guess it's down to what comes up ok on the test and what you tolerate, whether you go further and use a sample or not.

I don't know what to do myself now. I'm kind of scared by the whole thing. If I did do it, I would be afraid to get all my materials done, because if there was any reaction, I'd be devastaed, considering the cost.

Good luck though.

I have been referred to a dentist who decides what to use based on your compatibility with the product. He says:
Individual Biocompatibility is established after successfully testing each product or material against a specific individual. A number of testing techniques are available to health practitioners for individual biocompatibility testing. Individual biocompatibility testing is important because a product or material that is generally biocompatible may still be a problem for a specific individual. A simple example is food allergies where foods considered very safe can still cause severe allergic reactions in a few individuals. For that reason absolute biocompatibility does not exist. Obviously if a product or material has poor general biocompatibility then it is very likely that it will also have poor individual biocompatibility and vice versa. Some individuals have a high level of tolerance and may tolerate materials with poor or average biocompatibility but using them would offer only a relatively narrow margin of safety as any changes in the individual's health over time could reduce or eliminate his tolerance level. Furthermore the need to tolerate a material with poor or average biocompatibility will still exact a price that the well informed individual may not want to pay.

This guy is in NZ so not much help to you Jason but sure there must be someone in your area the same. My guy's web site is www.integrativedentalmedicine.com and has a lot of useful info even though he's a bit far away for you.

I know how you feel Bex, it all sometimes seems like a tradeoff of sorts. I just feel that right now, I have the worst possible combination of conditions in my mouth, and anywhere I go from here would have to be up. I have three (shiny metal per Walter Clifford's description) gold crowns that are probably also loaded with nickel, and these are immediately next to two mercury-laden 'silver' fillings. In addition to this, I constanly grind my teeth (bruxism?), and used to love to drink hot coffee (hot drinks not good for mercury fillings).

I'm not even sure what order to go about having all of this removed, now that I am aware of how dangerous they are. I wonder if I should I start with the crowns (which are covered 60% under insurance), or should I start with the fillings (which are not covered by insurance at all)? I had the gold crowns put in almost 10 years ago, and this is where all of my sinus/nose/brain fog problems started. Then my fillings were added about five years ago (makes me mad, because I was just starting to learn about the mercury issue around then, and even asked my dentist point blank if there was any mercury in those fillings. He of course told me 'no', which now I see in hindsight was an outright lie, but like a fool I never really went out and checked out the info for myself.)

And then I wonder, will I find amalgam underneath my crowns as well? Can I trust an insurance-based dentist to safely remove any amalgam underneath my existing crowns, if he should he find any? The only thing I feel that I have going for me, is that I accidentally found out yesterday during some Internet research that the insurance-based dentist that I want to see for possible CERAC crowns replacement is married to the biologic dentist that I will be seeing here in my hometown. I was amazed to find that there were only two Huggins-protocol based dentists that I could find listed in the state of Minnesota, and one of them happened to be literally 9 blocks away from my house! So I figure that maybe I can get my X-rays, etc. done with the insurance-based dentist, and he will have no problems sending these things to his wife's dental office, as there hopefully would not be the suspicions that I have unfortunately seen some of the other forum members have to deal with when wanting to transfer records, or view their own dental records. We truly do live in a Communist country here in America. It certainly isn't the America that I grew up in as a kid. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Sorry for rambling on. I just want to say Bex, hang in there and don't let these things get you down--they are really just temporary setbacks in the grand scheme of things. I guess in the end, we just have to just keep telling ourselves that this will all be worth it one day, and that these are just some of the obstacles that need to be overcome in order to be normal again some day. Hopefully, the trials we are all going through on this forum will serve a purpose to help others in the future, so that at least they will not have to endure so much suffering and uncertainty in order to simply get themselves well. If nothing else, this forum is helping all of us to put together a lot of data, so that we can see as a collective group what is working, and what is not working for us. As time goes on, we will continue to have a clearer and clearer picture of the effects of our choices, and will be better able to offer useful advice to others that someday in the future will be travelling down the same road as we are now. Viewed in that light, I think the future looks pretty bright for all of us here, even though some days it feels difficult to continue plugging away.

Take care,
Jason

Thanks for the website link jid--I need to sign off for tonight, but will defintely give that a look tomorrow morning. All of you on this forum are so awesome, and so helpful. Thank you for sharing your insights!

Jason

This is a great thread. Thanks Jason. Your post really lifted my spirits and encourages me to keep on keeping on.

Veg

Hi Jason, I see the predicament you're in. Gold, should be put in quotes "gold". My Mum had gold put in her teeth (and she has amalgams also) and I recall this is when her health totally deteriorated. She can't afford to get them out and she won't either.

All you can do is sit down with this insurance dentist and have a candid chat with him about the reasons for you doing this and that it's not for cosmetic reasons and you would like to be assured by him that he will do a thorough removal, and that includes of any possible amalgam that might be underneatht he crowns, as you are embarking on removing all amalgams from your mouth and would appreciate his integrity.

You could also talk to his wife about your concerns too.

Are you getting cerec done for your fillings too? and this biologic dentist, what does she think of cerec for a material?

well, I just hope that you have people that will be honest and do the job as it should be done. We put our trust in these people and how many of them let us down.

I can't believe that dnetist lied to you and told you there was no mercury in the fillings!!!! My brother has a little girl who has holes in her teeth (she is only 3) and needs them to be filled and he specifically said to the dentist "Is there any mercury in the amalgams you do?" and they said "no, they don't use mercury anymore" and he said "but they're silver fillings right?" and they said "yes but no mercury, just the other usual metals" and I said to him that they all have mercury in them, that is why they are called amalgams and he said "no, they said there is no mercury". So now I wonder if his little child will be getting mercury amalgams this early on in life. It' makes me sick.

anyway, enough about that. Thanks for the vote of confidence and the kind words.. Unfortuntely, I had my amalgams replaced 10 years ago now, my health issues have become severe in recent years due to other problesm in my immune system which has ruined my health and now prevents me from making progress or healing. I have remained permanently sick, so this is why I don't hve much hope anymore. I no longer believe it's all mercury anymore. So not sure what i'm dealing with. I don't know what to do. I'm kind of living in a state of numbness...I wish someone would come along, tell me this is what is wrong and this is all you have to do to fix it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

but I wish you all the luck and keep us all posted on how it goes.

Bex.

Thanks for the replies and the encouragement Veggiemom and Bex. I also got to thinking about my post last night Bex, and started to think later on last night that I hoped that I did not sound like I was minimizing your condition, as suffering for all of those years really cannot feel like a 'temporary condition'. I feel so bad for what you have been going through, and hope that maybe myself or someone else will run into the answer(s) to your current condition. You will definitely be in my prayers, and I will be sure to share my experiences with the forum concerning whatever materials that I decide to have added to my mouth, so we can all track the progress and effects of these materials. Hopefully, by all of us sharing our experiences, it will help us to figure out what works best over the long term, and what works best for the largest number of people that cannot afford testing, or to waste time.

Bex I can't help wondering if you might have an underlying issue beneath your existing crowns--whether that might be amalgam material used to cement the crowns, or maybe decay of some kind. Or like me (and your mom), you may have issues with the crown materials themselves(?). I know that my issues started with my crowns even before my amalgam fillings were put in, and I am really concerned as to what is in my current gold crowns. I am leery of starting any chelation without my crowns also being removed, as there are just too many unknowns to me concerning them at this point. Do you think that there is any possibliity that your dentist would have cemented your original crowns with amalgam, and that your chelation efforts have pulled that underlying amalgam into your system and actually made you more sick? What kind of crowns do you currently have? I have to believe that there is some logical answer to what you are experiencing, it just still needs to be discovered somehow. Your body's natural tendency is to heal itself--it usually only runs into problems when loads upon your immune system become too great for it to handle for whatever reason. Keep your faith in God, our best answers often come only after an intense amount of prior struggle and searching (John 8:31-32).

As far as my biologic dentist goes, I have not had a chance to speak with her directly yet--I have only spoken with the front desk staff (who incidentally have been extremely helpful). I need to get a full panoramic set of X-Rays taken at another dentist where insurance will cover them, and then once the X-Rays have been transferred to the biologic dentist's office, a consultation appointment will cost me $75 to discuss where things will go from there, and what needs to be done, and how much it will all cost (probably around $700 or so with supplemental oxygen). This dentist has just gotten a CERAC machine according to the front desk staff, so she must be impressed with it I am assuming. I am not sure yet whether or not they will use it in fillings--currently they are placing composites for fillings from what I understand.

Well, I am still at work right now, so I had better run for the time being. Thanks again to everyone for all of your posts, and for sharing your thoughts and insights.

Jason

Hi Jason, no not at all, I didn't think you were minimising my suffering/condition. It's hard to know what exactly a person has been through or for how long. And I think you are right, the body does indeed try and heal itself and if you are doing just about everything right, there is something very very wrong when that process comes to a standstill.

Too many loads on the immune system at once. I totally agree. I have apparently - periodontal gum disease, cavitations (infections the jawbone), incompatible dental materials, and I have a permanent underlining bacteria infection that I got many years ago that has given me a type of chronic fatigue syndome. So I believe my body is unable to assert itself fully to any one problem, as it's juggling them all. Once that happens, I think the person remains in a type of permanent state of not going upwards.

I just have normal composite fillings, no crowns and no amalgam left and none used. I also have a panoramic xray to prove this.

It's good the biologic dentist has a cerec machine, shows it must be pretty good material. It does indeed get used in fillings, all the time. But she may not choose to use it personally. My view is, if you're going to have it as a crown material, you may as well get the other stuff done in the same material as well, so you avoid mixing materials in the same mouth.... just a thought though. And also depending on your reaction with the crowns too.

Thanks for the chapter and verse! One needs to hear things like that, too often we search for manmade answers and forget the other!

All the best and thanks for keeping us posted. YEp, if everybody keeps others informed about what they're doing, what material is used, how they've reacted etc, it'll certainly help others make more informed decisions and hopefully avoid similar mishaps (or total disasters).

P.S. iwould say I have some decay in my teeth, some of my materials are very old, shrunk and need redoing, so it's possible there is decay under them in some teeth.

Hi Bex,

I'm wondering if Dr. Schulze's Tooth and Gum Formula would possibly offer a little relief in your case? I haven't ever tried it myself before, but I have tried several of his other formulas with great success--they appear to be very powerful and potent herbal extracts. I actually wiped out a cold and cough that had been getting worse for three days by taking his Echinacea Plus, and Super Tonic together. After taking these formulas, the cold was gone in literally 4 hours. I took a dose every 2 hours, and could actually feel the effects after the first dose, but by the second dose, it was completely gone in the next two hours. I have also used his Kidney Cleanse and Prostate formulas with very good results. He also seems to be well spoken of on curezone.com from what I have been able to gather. I don't know if he would ship to NZ, but it may be worth a shot(?). It appears that you have already tried a lot of things, but I thought that I would give this to you anyway, just in case. His website is at the following address: http://www.800herbdoc.com/warning.asp

Be assured, I will definitely share any experiences of where I go from here. I think that I may attempt to take the plunge and go for the zirconium CERAC's (both crowns and fillings) if the biocompatibility test results are OK. I just want to avoid aluminum (even in the oxide form), but think that zirconium oxide may be a safer alternative. I believe that they often use zirconium in aritificial joints, etc. so I will have to ask my wife what results her patients have had with this material, and if there have been any complications in the healing process for these people (she is an RN in home care--it's just too bad that she doesn't accept a lot more of the facts about what is actually going on in her industry). I would think that having a large joint in the body would contribute a lot more of this material into the bloodstream than a few small teeth. Plus this way, if the CERAC's do not work well, I can let everyone on the forum know about it so that they can stay away from them in the future. However if I remember correctly, there was at least one person on this forum that used CERAC, and they seemed to be fine with them so far.

Jason

Jason or anyone,
I just spoke with a biological denist from IAOMT. I asked if he did CERAC. He said he use to but does not anymore because he was not pleased with the "finish line" My understanding of what he said was that the crown has to sit precisley correct or the finish lines will be off.
Does anyone have a better explaination. Is it that difficult for a trained biological dentist to make perfect finish lines?
I am really new to all of this Cerac information. It is supposedly the best, hence the enormous cost per filling.
I have been quoted 840 for one cerac crown. Is it truely worth it?

Also they say Cerac placement does not require as much drilling and or more tooth lost in the procedure is this correct?

And what is the "Life expectancy" of cerac compared to resin/composite. Are we looking at a significant amount of time so that it is worth it? If it is I'd definitly go for the Cerac despite the high cost.

Just some of my thoughts and questions on the subject.

Veg

Hi Veggiemom,

Unfortunately, I don't have the answers to your questions today, but I just made a consultation appointment with the insurance-based dentist that does CERAC crowns for October 16th, so I will ask him about this when I see him. If anyone else has any questions about CERAC, please let me know, and I will make sure to forward these questions during my appointment. These are all good things to know, and I hadn't even considered this question--thanks for bringing this up Veggiemom! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jason

Hi Jason, thanks for the info and link. I had already bought something for my gum problem a while back from overseas. I guess it worked "ok", but nothing miraculous. My gums don't bleed, but they are tender and apparently I do have the disease, but it's not overly evident as yet. It can impact a person's health too apparently. I don't know if I'd order anything else from overseas at this stage, I'm out of my debt at the moment on my credit card. Thanks though.

Also, aluminium oxide is used inside the body for the artificial joints also and is apparently highly biocompatible. It's been used for many years. Zirconium is apparently very biocompatible and I hear there is an actual dental material called zirconium oxide which is supposedly the most biocompatible material out there. Though I have not heard of any dentist using it here.

I may not be able to get cerec if the cost is going to be too much. I too have heard they can range from 1000 dollars per tooth. There is NO way I could do that (1000 nz dollars). SO im making sure before I commit to any of it. I made a number of enquires and most here charge about 850 - 1500 depending on size/depth of the tooth needing to be filled.

Also got in touch with an overseas dentist in Australia, who uses cerec. He only uses two materials in his surgery that he thinks are the most biocompatible. One is the cerec porcelain and the other is a composite called Heliomolar. He doesn't use anything else. He says there are some patients who react to almost anything and everything and he said that he's had to pretty much limit it down to these two materials as according to him, he feels they are fine with just about everybody.

His website is - http://www.shdc.com.au/ if you're curious at having a look. He's into oral toxicology too, so the fact he uses cerec should be a pretty good indication that it must be "ok".

All porcelain restoratives cost about the same amount. No matter which one you get.

Thanks for keeping us posted and yeah sure, if you do get a crown done in cerec, I will be most interested to hear how you feel with it and about it. You can also wait for a while before you had straight into amalgam removal, and see if you notice ANY odd reactions with the cerec crown before committing to getting your amalgams done with it.

Just a thought.

First I would like to say how amazing all this information is. The battle to find dental material that will allow people to live normal lives is very important. I am in that battle. So far the materials tried have failed and they are all suppose to be very biocompatible.

I have a dental appt with a biological denist regarding the cerec material next week here in the Phoenix, az area. If anyone is intrested I will share what happends. I would like to say that I was not impressed with diamondcrown as it seems very toxic when I put it in my mouth. So maybe cerec is the answer. We can only hope.

With that said, I know there are going to be some intresting choices in the near future that will allow people to regrow teeth and maybe others have some more information but I only know of 2. One is canada and the other in the UK using stem cells. Both are suppose to have products out in the next few years.

Also, I been reading about how people are also using other alternative ways of regrowing teeth. I do not have much information on that but who knows. Anything really should be possible and maybe dental material in general is not the answer.

Thanks.

Hi there, yeah I have found this website totally invaluable and i learn things from people and my own experience (and mistakes) and everyone just passes it on and helps eachother.

Yes, I do not believe Diamond is an ideal material. I have not always heard the best reports either. Though I doubt anything is ideal. I just feel that though Diamond is supposedly free of metals, they HAVE to make it up by including other chemicals etc, there is not such thing as a healthy metal free material.

This is why I think cerec is safer, because basically, even if it does contain these things, it does not come out the same, and doesn't have the wear or softness of amalgams or composites.

with cerec, you can drink hot and cold drinks, it will not do what amalgams and compsoites do. It expands and contracts with it, it does not vaporise etc.

Though yep, it contains metal oxides, as the rest of them do. But i'd rather have a material that contained them firmly, rather than one that was softer and more leechable.

Again, I would never guarantee any of them frankly. And the cost of these porcelains are out of many people's league, unless they have a reasonable income.

But if I were to choose? I'd most likely go with cerec. Even just for that one reason alone, more stable, less likely to leech any of the content out, plus it does not react with other materials in the mouth and set off new toxic reactions with those other materials.

The only risk for that to occur, is when people get porcelains with metal bases and don't know it. The metal base is covered with porcelain and this metal base will set off reactions in a mouth that still contains amalgam and probably cause a terrible response. Just like having braces put on, two differing metals setting off a battery effect in the mouth, and causing a larger release of the toxins, plus them combining with eachother at the sametime.

Is cerec the answer? I don't know. I wish it was, but it would seem it's certainly high on the list of many biologic dentists. If you try it, or get a sample, let us know how it felt wtih you.

One thing on here people are honest and will tell it how it is. If something is touted for being great and a person hasn't had a good reaction, they will come out and say it. This is what we need to hear, the truth and we will only get that from fellow sufferers.

Hi phxcoop, thanks for joining us on this thread. I would be VERY interested to hear what you find out next week--if you get time, PLEASE do share with us what you find out. I really have come to like the firsthand/eyewitness testimony the best of all on this forum. Too many times, I have tried to research a topic on the Internet, and it just happens to be recycled information based on what 'someone else heard from another person who heard it from someone else'. I really like firsthand information the best, because it gives us an opportunity to see things from someone else's point of view, and also offers us a chance to ask that person additional questions, whereas we cannot ask a research paper questions beyond what is covered in the paper. It also gives us a chance to compare information that we get from dentists in all different areas of the world, and to get their takes on everything--as the mass media (which I believe sways their opinions too often) is controlled to different degrees in each country. I also think that people on this forum are not financially motivated toward any particular result--we only want to get well, and also want to help others get well in the process.

I believe that the more firsthand data that this forum can collect about the effects of these dental materials, the more confident we can be about making decisions to either put them into our mouths, or to leave them out. After reading several of the threads on this forum, I feel that I am leaning toward the conclusion that there are a very few decent materials out there that should work for most people, but that a biocompatibility test seems in order before placement, so that complications are held to a minimum. Even with testing, it seems as though there may be other factors at work that the tests do not always catch. How to avoid these completely, I am not sure of. I guess this is why I value the firsthand testimonies so much, because at least the numbers should play in our favor over time if we can see that certain materials are working for most people at least 1 year after they are placed.

Maybe it would be a good idea to start a separate thread asking those on the forum what materials that they have used so far, who the dentist was that placed them and how the procedure went, how long they have had them, and what complications (if any) they have noticed after getting the materials placed. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Jason

I also did have the clifford lab test done. That was the first thing I did after I had the 1st reaction to the perm crowns that landed me in the ER. What I have learned about the test is that you can take it with a grain of salt. I would say, stay way from the things that you show up as reactive. But then again, there are a few things listed as reactive that I have used for years but not in my mouth so who knows. But there are a lot of false negatives.

There is too many events that can accure in the mouth. For example, when you have 1 crown made out of one material followed by a filling and the cement used to bound the crown, mix in saliva and food and BAM you could have a reaction.

So basically the test should only be used as a guide and a cheek and gum test is the best way to go after the blood work.

They also did some other tests on me which also showed as a negative and again, once that material was in my mouth I was reacting too it. I think it was called kinisology. But that in itself is only about 60% correct.

I forgot to login:

I also did have the clifford lab test done. That was the first thing I did after I had the 1st reaction to the perm crowns that landed me in the ER. What I have learned about the test is that you can take it with a grain of salt. I would say, stay way from the things that you show up as reactive. But then again, there are a few things listed as reactive that I have used for years but not in my mouth so who knows. But there are a lot of false negatives.

There is too many events that can accure in the mouth. For example, when you have 1 crown made out of one material followed by a filling and the cement used to bound the crown, mix in saliva and food and BAM you could have a reaction.

So basically the test should only be used as a guide and a cheek and gum test is the best way to go after the blood work.

They also did some other tests on me which also showed as a negative and again, once that material was in my mouth I was reacting too it. I think it was called kinisology. But that in itself is only about 60% correct.

Thanks phx, that makes a lot of sense concerning the testing. I would also like to hear what you find out from your dentist with the CEREC's, as this is the material that I am leaning towards using to replace my current crowns with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Also found this information on the forum from a post submitted back on July 10th. I am assuming from the writing style that this was written by Walter Clifford as well:

"Cerec refers to a system of CAD equipment from the Sirona Company which carves crowns and the like from pre-formed blocks of ceramic and porcelain. Other companies are coming into the marketplace with similar equipment. We currently have in our system some 32 different kinds of porcelain/ceramic blocks for use with the Cerec-type machines. Some of the blocks are aluminosilicate (aluminum salt) based and others are zircate (zirconium salt) based. Aluminum and zirconium are both metals. I would need to speak with the doctor to determine which of the 32 types of blocks is proposed for use before I could comment on potential suitability.

In spite of all the hoopla and advertising signs put out by dentists, there is no such animal as a metal-free restorative. >From basic freshman chemistry class, whenever there is an anion in nature, there must be a balancing cation. Cations are nearly always metals. Hence, there is metal even in simple denture acrylic. All of the porcelains, ceramics, glass ionomers, composites, compomers, ceromers and the like contain metals. At a minimum, these may include metals such as barium, lithium, iron, titanium, cobalt, aluminum, zirconium and manganese. The important question to ask is not whether or not there are metals, but rather, what forms do the metals take.

The more severe galvanic problems and concomitant release of ionized metals take place with frankly reduced (shiny, metallic-looking) metals. The oxidized forms of the metals (metal salts) are often less problematic. Porcelains and ceramics usually have oxidized metals in a crystalline lattice formation, and these are more stable still. Any form of metal can be problematic if there are sufficient differences in the bio-materials present in the body. I don’t have time to provide a complete course in chemistry and physics on the matter, but the secret to minimizing the off-loading of whatever metals may be present in a bio-available form is to keep all restorative products within the same general chemical groups and families so that electromotive forces are minimal.

As to aluminum, we get really excited about certain forms of aluminum. If the only forms of aluminum present are aluminum oxide, alumina or aluminosilicate, we will totally ignore the aluminum unless the patient also has a silicate sensitivity. To become toxic and bio-available, aluminum must be ionized. The forms of aluminum compounds mentioned above have a dissociation half-life between 109 and 1011 years under expected oral cavity conditions. In simple terms, there will not be enough dissociated aluminum from restoratives to measure in a lifetime. It is true that you can physically break off micro-fines of the restorative, but these are small bits of intact compound and not dissociated aluminum. They will void in the next bowel movement or two. To put this into proper perspective, your skeleton is composed of 2.0% – 2.5% aluminum oxide and aluminosilicate, normally and naturally. There is more aluminosilicate in a single side serving of fresh garden salad containing lettuces and vegetables than will be released from a mouth full of ceramic or porcelain crowns in a normal lifetime. The plants pick up the aluminosilicates from the soil readily and incorporate them into their tissues.

The bottom line is that there are some forms of aluminum compounds which are a non-issue, and this is seen in some of the Cerec blocks. The zircate-based blocks may be a different matter, depending upon the individual patient. "

Hi, that was from me lol. I wonder whether I put that on under anonymous or something.

I got that email from Walter Clifford a while back when I asked about cerec, but my computer got a virus and I lost the email and I forgot that it was still on this forum.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />thank you for posting it!

Hey Bex--I just found it again under the 'Cerec ceramic fillings' post that was started on July 10th. It looks like you posted it under your own name, I just forgot to mention who posted it after I cut and pasted it--sorry about that. Thanks for sharing that post, it gives even more information than Walter Clifford sent me a little while ago. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jason

I had the dental appt today. I am holding in my hand "cerec 3 vitabloc mark II 3d" with calibra esthetic rs. All this hype about cerec is just that hype. According to this biological dentist and this guy is on the far left side of the world. He seems to make the news a lot. He says that a lot more people seem to react to cerec than other things. He uses it cause it can be done in one visit and that is the only reason. I did ask him if he knows when science will be able to grow back teeth and he said within 10 years for sure. I had put the stuff in my mouth and I have to say I am not sure if i am sensitive to it or not. I am going to try a little each day to see what happends. This one seems to be based on the aluminum oxide.

If anyone has any questions please feel free to ask but that was just about the entire converstation. He was a very nice dentist and did not seem fake.

I did not really get to talk to him about anything else.

Ok, well that's it for me. I have spent months figuring out a good dental material, finally found one I thought was ok, emailed many dentists, read up on this and heard only positive reports. Now? I hear this.

Thanks for letting us know anyway. But really, I am tired of it all now. I have no idea nymore what to get.

did your dentist say what kinds of reactions people had to this stuff? I mean seriously, this is just ridiculous. How can you geta whoel lot of dentists beng positive about it and then I hear a total contradiction.

The biologic dentist I've been in touch with has studied in oral toxicology and he does not use anymore than two basic materials, cerec or heliomolar, due to the fact he says so many others are too reactive.

So what really is going on? I'm bewildered by this.

This is an example of a reply I got from a biologic dentist in Australia who uses cerec, when I asked him about it.

Cerec is an excellent material and as tooth-like a material as we have found. It also wears at the same rate as tooth and expands and contracts the same as tooth (we expose our teeth to variations in temperature from 0-55 centrigrade). Being porcelain it also does not leach out its components like amalgam or composite. Non-metal is also important from a bio-electrical perspective ( remember our muscles and nerves work by transmitting tiny electrical currents.

Another dentist Dr Wayne King, biologic, uses cerec also and said to me, out of any choice, cerec woudl be my best bet, both biocompatibility wise, and also the strength of the material itself.

Another dentist who has used it for 18 years tells me he's not heard of ONE adverse reaction so far.

I mean this is just bizzare. Who do we trust?

Remember Bex this is just one dentist's opinion. You have to look at all the evidence. I for one would belive Cliffords words over this dentist. Just take it for what's its worth.
I'm coming to a point where I have to stop microanalyzing every little thing. It just makes me sicker.
I know... easier said than done. It's so hard when you are in such a diffucult position and so ill but I have found this be be conterproductive when it comes to getting better.
The enemy, (in my case Satan) wouldn't be happier than to see me confused, cast down and a prisioner to my illness. I fight this every day. I pray your come to a place where you are satisfied knowing you made the best decision you could possibly make.

Praying for complete healing for you Bex.

Veg

Hi veggie mum, thanks for your response. I overreact because I feel so ill, that I can't seem to get out of this nightmare. You know how it is.

I am probably just going to take my chances and go with a plain composite material, not sure what to do now. I'll have to trust my serum test form and risk it at some point.

Thanks very much for your prayers. I agree with your statement too, very much so.

Bex,

You might also what to find out the type of cerec that is being used. I mentioned the one that this dentist uses but there are a lot of others out there. But you are right.. this whole thing makes me sick and what is worse is this is all legal.

So right now I have 2 teeth with temp crowns made out of some kind of plastic that I am sensitive too which keep making me sick. But I can deal with that for the time being. But what makes me upset is I am not able to find a replacement product that will allow me to put it in my mouth for more than 10 mins. I am going to find out what my composit filling are made out of as I apprently do not have much problems with them.

What I think I am going to do really is find a dentist who will remove the crowns and make a temp crown out of the filling material or just fill the tooth in with the filling material till they can grow teeth or I can grow my own teeth or something. I will not get the pulled unless the root dies.

Hi, yeah there are different blocks of cerec, but i think they are basically very similar in composition anyway. They are continually touted as a biocompatible material, so this is a real shock to me.

It is enough to make you sick, definitely. I don't think I could afford the cerec anyway though, but it's just upsetting to know that if I could, I would now not be certain.

I am looking at heliomolar, but finding bad stuff out about that as well as good stuff. So this is just incredible.

But it is the other material the dentist I have uses. He's supposedly using biocompatible materials, and uses heliomolar, yet he uses cerec too, so....

You sound like you are hyper sensitive like me too. Certainly whatever you think you can cope with already in your mouth, like your composites i'd probably stick with those. Hope you can find out what they are.

I looked up heiiomolar on the web and it boasts about having fluoride! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Yeah I heard this too, but if it's not fluoride, what other toxin would it be? So for me, I am running out of ideas now. On my serum testing form, I was "ok" with flouride. How accurate that is I don't know because a doctor and a dentist tested me with their methods and said I was "not ok with fluoride".

So what is a person supposed to do? Seriously, you can't win. I'm going to have to take a chance at some point because no matter what material I look at or check out, it's found to have somethign wrong with it, or someone will tell me they felt bad with it.

This whole thing is a nightmare.

Well, I just had my appointment with my insurance-based dentist yesterday. I really liked this guy, and feel that he and his wife (the biologic dentist in my neighborhood) are very concerned about getting people the best care possible. This dentist was very open to all of my questions, and actually welcomes having patients that have done some homework before coming to his office. He was very matter-of-fact about the mercury issue, and did not side-step any of my questions. Bex, he also told me many of the same things about CEREC that you have been told by the dentists that you have researched. He thinks that this is the most bio-compatible material on the market today, and recommends it whenever possible. One interesting thing that he told me, is that they began moving away from the aluminum-oxide based CEREC's about two-and-a-half years ago, and have been placing the zirconium-oxide based CEREC's since then. He seemed to feel that this matched the existing tooth structure better than the aluminum-oxides. This particular dentist spends quite a bit of time in seminars trying to learn as much as he can about the new materials and techniques, to find what works best for people. He said that he has spoken frequently with Walter Clifford, and that Walter told him that the number of people requesting blood serum testing for CEREC's has actually been decreasing lately, because so few people are reporting any problems with them. This particular dentist also said that he has been placing CEREC's for years, and no one yet has reported any problems to him with them. He did say that he would not have any way of knowing if there were problems after placement, unless someone specifically complained to him about it. But so far, no one has done so.

Someone had also earlier asked the question about the 'finish lines' with the CEREC's, and their dentist being concerned about the difficulty of getting these correct. I found out that the 'finish line' has to do with how far the crown goes down over the tooth. The problem with CEREC finish lines comes when the crown needs to go extremely near to, or below the gumline. When this happens, a regular mould needs to be taken of the tooth, just as would be done normally with other non-CEREC crown materials. This mould is then sent away to a lab, where the CEREC crown would then be fabricated, instead of having it done onsite. This requires the use of a temporary crown, rather than getting everything done in one visit, which is usually possible with the CEREC's. I would assume that this probably has to do with the powder that the CEREC computer camera normally uses to create a one-visit crown placement. If the powder cannot get right up to or below the gumline, then a different method needs to be used to obtain the correct crown dimensions.

I think that this dentist that I talked to has also been taking cues from his wife's practice, as he employs most of the same procedures in removing amalgams as she does. He uses the rubber dam, high-powered suction, high-powered ventilation in a separate room and uses lots of water to keep the drill cool. He also drills around the filling as much as possible, and tries to break out the filling in chunks, to minimize the amount of mercury vapor created. He also offers supplemental oxygen in the form of a nitrous-oxide hood with positive pressure, rathen than a cannula-type of device. About the only thing that he does not offer is the ionizer that captures some of the mercury vapor in the ambient air.

I will be attending a qustion-and-answer session tomorrow with the biologic dentist that she puts on once a month for interested people. I will have to see if I can find out any other information at that time about amalgam removal procedures, etc.

Jason

I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but I just found it very interesting to learn that that Cerac is also a vendor of industrial mercury.

Mercury

This vertical directory comprehensively lists the most trusted companies providing Mercury to industry. This is an industrial directory listing all companies which are manufacturers, service companies and distributors and provide

Mercury.
Discuss Mercury & Other Topics
http://www.thomasnet.com/products/mercury-50511609-1.html
http://tinyurl.com/23l9zr
http://tinyurl.com/yupwg8

Hi anon, thanks but I think you're mistaken. The links you put up are a company by the name of Cerac - CERAC, Inc., Subsidiary of Williams Advanced Materials, Inc. - Milwaukee, WI

This has nothing to do with "Cerec" which is a dental material (ceramic) made by the company by the company "Sirona". which is what this thread is about. But I can see how you would have got them confused, the name cerac and cerec.

You got me going there for a while though!!!

Also the title of this thread has the name cerec spelt as cerac. Easily done though. So no wonder you posted that!!!!

Thanks very much for your concern regardless.

I just wanted to post an update about my dental work. I apologize that I haven't been on the forum for a few months--I took a job at the end of November where I have been averaging about 60-70 hours per week until now, and have pretty much had only enough time for work and family for a while (except for a few days off in between where I got my dental work done).

I had both of my mercury fillings removed (replaced with DiamondLite), and have also had all 3 gold crowns removed and replaced with the Vita-Mark II CEREC's. Love them--they have been wonderful, and I feel no sensitivity with them to boot. When my first mercury filling was removed, I felt like the feeling of a 'membrane' encasing my brain was gone after one day. Since having the rest of the dental work done, I have felt that my mood swings are also becoming less and less pronounced. I think that I will be starting chelation therapy (using DMSA) tomorrow, and will see how that goes. I will be starting at 25mg doses, and see if that will work for me.

Bex, just wondered how things are going for you--have you been able to decide on a dental material that will work for you yet?

Well, I need to run again, but just wanted to give you all an update. Hopefully things will be slow enough at work now where I can start coming out to the forum more often again. It's the one thing that I miss about my last job--there was ALWAYS time to surf the Internet and post on the forum as I had little else to take care of at work for most of the day, plus my manager was OK with it as long as the work was getting done. :-)

Jason

Jason, this is great to hear from you! I have actually been hoping you'd come back and give a report, especially on the cerec (as you are aware this is the one I'm hoping on). And your report is very encouraging.

I am so glad that things are working out for you and hope that the DMSA may further that even more.

I am still unwell, though no mercury, other things have impacted my health as you know (past infection never left me etc). But am soon "hopefully" to get cerec put in. Sadly I was unable to get the help of a biologic dentist, but found a general one who does cerec. He does not seem overly forward or helpful regarding my plight in respect of toxicity, but hope he will still do a thorough removal of my composites and be honest about it. It is costly yes, but hope it will be worth it.

As of now, I am too sick to go through with dental work. Any dental work in the past has been devastating to me, whether it's exposure of mercury vapor in the dental office itself (from previous patient amalgam work), and or the anaesthetic I do not know. So I'm very afraid at what might happen.

But if my health improves soon (I've had a bad setback recently), I will be going on. The cerec is 3 vita mark II and the bonding agent will be either relyx unicem or variolink.

wish me luck and good to see you back!

Bex.

I will wish you luck Bex, and also will be praying lots too. Keep me posted on your journey, your road to good health has always been very important to me. You have been such a treasure to all of us here on this forum--thanks for everything that you have done (and continue to do) for all of us! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Take care,
Jason

hi Jason, thanks a lot for the encouragement and kindness!!! The forum has been a blessing to me as well becuase of people like you on here. It helps a lot as you know.

Yeah, I will keep you posted, though at the moment I don't see things going very far as Im just too sick to do a thing. But if they happen, I'll let you know.

Thanks for your prayers, much appreciated and needed.

Bex <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was wondering how you were doing Jason. Good on you for doing your research and getting it done.
And yes! Bex has been there for all of us, a true Gem!

I had my first two amalgams removed this last month. I had helimolar put in with no ill effects. I was going to go for the Cerec but the dentist was not as strict with his precautions so I stayed with the biological dentist I know I could trust to take every precaution and went with the helimolar. I get my last biggie out the 12th of April.
Healing prayers for you Jason and success in your new job.

Why replace gold crowns if thay don't contain palladium?

Some metals such as mercury, nickel , barium aluminum etc are highly toxic whereas others ,such as gold and zirconium are not.

Does anyone know the difference in terms of chemical composition between ceramic and composite fillings?

If you can't sfford to do all the work at once, you should have the newest amalgam removed first ,since the older the filling the less mercury it releases per day.

Searching for truth's comments on the stability of aluminous dental materials are unfortunately reminiscent of the ADA's claim that mercury is stably bonded in amalgam and thus patient exposure is negligible.

Hi Jill, I think all porcelain/ceramics contain aluminium and even many composites too I hear. I do not know how bad this is considering it is already contained in baking powder, cheese and other things we take in.

Andy Cutler who is well up on toxicity does not feel it is an issue and I doubt he would be like the ADA <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> If anything, he's angry with the lies they have told and cover ups and seeks to expose them when he can. But here is some comment he made to someone's concern over aluminium in porcelain - http://onibasu.com/archives/am/2014.html

He may not be fully right, I do not know. It seems people have different reactions to many things and maybe it is to do with total body load. perhaps if someone is not getting much other exposure, they will do ok. And to do with whether the aluminium is readily coming out of the dental materials and whether there is other metals in teh mouth at the sametime. Im sure many things come into it. Like some people complain they've been poisoned by aluminium, but fail to realise that if they may have gotten the porcelain with a metal base! That can be the culprit, not the porcelain. Also the galvanic reactions between differing metals in the same mouth cause far more issues than one main metal. Like me with braces at age 15, that is when things in my health fell apart, it was the "trigger".

Here is a link on the aluminium contained in the ceramic
http://www.vident.com/general.php?id_pages=205

I know where you are coming from Jill, it's kind of difficult to really know for sure what any of these dental materials are in fact doing to us over the long term. The reason that I had my gold crowns removed was because of the health problems that started in my life soon after getting them placed. I'm not sure yet what kinds of materials were in my gold crowns (there seem to be lots of different kinds of gold crowns), but I did not want to take chances, based on my past health history. I tried to do the best research that I could on the Internet, I spoke with a friend that used to be a dental assistant 30 years ago, and did my best to make some common-sense deductions. Most of us just do not have the money to invest, or the scientific expertise (or equipment, including a dedicated lab) to measure the true rate of decay of these materials on our own. The vast majority of us end up having to take someone else's word for it in the end--about all we can do is make the best educated guess possible based on the available information. Actually, as Russ pointed out a few months ago on this subject, the best thing we can actually do is take care of our teeth, and not have the need for dental work to be done to them later. :-)

So far, it seems to me as though Walter Clifford's comments near the beginning of this post made a lot of sense, and are coming true in my recovery. I'm feeling much better than I was, once I got the metals removed from my mouth. I also had the CEREC's placed where the gold crowns used to be--and these are a single piece of porcelain, that do not have the traditional metal base underneath them. The shiny (frank) metals from the gold in my mouth indeed were corroding, as could be seen on the bottom of my gold crowns after they were removed. What this corrosion was composed of, I'm really not sure--but it was like a green and white salt, and looked a lot like an old piece of metal that had rusted after years of use (or neglect). They looked exactly like the pictures of the gold crowns shown in Hulda Clark's book "The Cure for all Diseases".

As Bex pointed out, I think that people have to try different things, and find out what is going to work best for them, since we all have different health histories. It seems to be a lot of guesswork right now, but at least we can share our experiences together here on the forum, and start noting the trends that come up after enough people see the same results over and over with any particular material, protocol, or therapy.

Jason

Hi I wonder if you could tell me where this N Z Dentist is located ? I am looking at having 4 or 5 Cerac crowns done but am not convinced that my dentist is totally familiar with this technology,

Hi there. This dentist is actually a cerec trainer, so more than just experience, he trains other dentists in how to use it!

Here are his details.
Dr Nick Tramoundanas BSc,BDS,MISCD,MACDNA
ISCD Certified Cerec Trainer
Unit 5, 37 Miramar Ave.,
Miramar Plaza
Wellington 6003
NEW ZEALAND
Ph 64-4-3889999
Fax 64-4-3889348
email: smiledoctor@smiledoctor.co.nz
www.miramardental.co.nz

On his website, you can watch the video of him actually putting cerec in a patient and talking about it as he goes.

Hope this is helpful. He may also put you onto dentists that are the best bet in replacing this material if you wish to see someone closer to yourself.

Copper oxidizes/corrodes to a greenish/white color, you can see it quite visibly on copper roofing materials and even pennies if you place one in salt water or vinegar. I have also noticed that if you put vinegar into a bottle with a metal top, probably aluminum base metal, that the metal top will also oxidize and corrode to a greenish white color. Maybe the aluminum, maybe copper coming somewhere I am not sure I simply wash it off now and then.

Good to know about that though, thanks for the info.

Searching for truth,
Your crowns were gold in color alone . Crowns that are 75% gold and contain platinum and a small percentage of silver do not form a green corrosion product not even in thirty years.

I have my metal bridge removed today. My gum was and still is swollen and inflamed underneath. I want to replace it with something that does not contain any metal. The dentist suggested Zirconium.

Zirconium is a metal. He probably meant zirconium dioxide. Specialist language mentions Zirconium frame on the one hand, and metal free replacements on the other hand, describing the same thing.

Is it entirely ceramic or metal covered by ceramic? Does it cause metallic irritation or not?

Is it possible to produce the whole bridge out of plastic?

It's entirely ceramic, just like aluminium oxide, except it is more biocompatible as far as I'm aware.

A biologic dentist here in my country uses ceramic tooth implants "Zirconia" (which is zirconium oxide).

He has studied extensively not only about amalgam/mercury, but also alternative dental materials, of which certain ones can also be problematic in patients. So he tests patients for biocompatibility before implanting any materials.

This is what is said about this material in regards to dental implants on his website:

http://www.dr-jacques-imbeau.com/metalfreeimplantology.html

Quote

Although titanium is commonly used for dental implants, it is a metal and is thus susceptible to corrosion in the mouth. Ceramic materials such as zirconia offer many advantages over titanium.

Why consider zirconia ceramic dental implants ?

- Cosmetic superiority
- Excellent osseointegration
- Bio-inert *
- Simple, single piece installation
- Improved patient recovery time
- Comparable costs (titanium vs. ceramic implants)
- Certified and approved for use in Europe and New Zealand
- As strong as titanium without the disadvantages

So why have a metallic implant that is the wrong colour, can corrode, conduct electrical currents and react with other metals when you can have a white, bio-inert*, high performance zirconia ceramic implant ?

High purity zirconia demonstrate excellent general biocompatibility, but like any other dental material designed for human implantation, it should be tested for individual biocompatibility prior to placement. Individual biocompatibiliy may vary from general biocompatibility depending on genetic characteristics, health status and other individual biological variables.

Here's some more info regarding this material.
http://www.dentist-planet.com/zirconia-implants.php

Two weeks have passed and my gum is still swollen, so I don’t allow the dentist to take the negative pattern. The good news is however, that my sight becomes more and more clear week by week. I may throw away my glasses by Christmas.

Another month has passed and I still can feel the traces of the former dental bridge on my gum. It was covered by ceramics from outside, but its metallic inside had a chance to be in direct contact with my gum for ten years. On the other hand I feel my sight and head more and more clear day by day.