News you won't see in controlled mainstream media.

Circle-of-Life Forums - Welcome
Open-Source News, Natural Health, Recipes, Freedom, Preparedness, Computers, Technology, Movies, Reviews, History, Wisdom, Truth
See All Social Media We Are On | Trouble viewing videos? Use FireFox instead of Chrome.
Mercury Detox & Amalgam Fillings Forum

The Mercury Detox & Amalgam Fillings Forum

Detoxing Heavy Metals, Removing Amalgam Fillings, Understanding Mercury Poisoning

Our Most Popular Videos, Audio Clips, and Articles

Text
Text

2,115,526

views

Secret News
News you won't hear in controlled mainstream media.
Video Document
Video

74,694

views

CFL Bulbs: Are They Safe?
An experiment exposing the serious danger of compact fluorescent bulbs.
Video Document
Video

2,762

views

Mercury From Canned Fish Contaminating Your Kitchen
Open a can of fish and you begin breathing mercury vapor.
Website
Website

(remote)

views

Spraying the Skies with Toxic Metals
Have you heard about the epic crime of human history?
Video
Video

84,127

views

The Global Depopulation Agenda Documented
A MUST-SEE lecture for every parent!
Video
Video

77,191

views

What In the World are They Spraying?
Vaccination via the air for everyone, every day!
Video
Video

9,690

views

The
A 2-minute explanation of the global warming lie.
Video
Video

6,441

views

Global Warming: The Other Side
The Weather Channel founder exposes the GW lie.
Video
Video

19,134

views

Know Your Enemy
A revolutionary look at Earth history.
Video
Video

8,608

views

Mystery Babylon
The grandmother of all conspiracies.
Video
Video

1,694

views

The Power Behind the New World Order
An essential video for all wishing to understand.
Video
Video

4,284

views

Global Warming: Is CO2 the Cause
Dr. Robert Carter tells the truth about global warming.
Video
Video

1,160

views

All Jesse Ventura Conspiracy Theory Episodes In One Place
Easily find the episodes you want to watch.
Text
Text

28,478

views

New Study Steers Mercury Blame Away From Vaccines Toward Environment: But Where's It Coming From?
New study steers mercury blame away from vaccines.
Text
Text

39,214

views

Revelation 18:23 What does "sorcery" really mean?
Text
Text

29,509

views

The Leading Cause of Death Globally - Likely Has Been for Decades
Modern medicine leading cause of death globally?
Video
Video

21,668

views

Lies In the Textbooks - Full Version
Blatant, intentional lies in American textbooks.
Text
Text

13,001

views

Stop Chemical and Biological Testing on U.S. Citizens
Testing on U.S. Citizens is perfectly legal today.
Text
Text

14,262

views

Do Vaccines Cause Cancer? Cancerous Cell Lines Used in the Development of Vaccines
DOCUMENTED! Cancerous cell lines used in vaccines!
Video
Video

13,271

views

Italian Doctor - Dr. Tullio Simoncini - Reportedly Curing 90% of Cancer Cases
Italian Doctor makes history & gets license revoked.
Video
Video

19,401

views

Apollyon Rising 2012 - The Final Mystery Of The Great Seal Revealed: A Terrifying And Prophetic Cipher, Hidden From The World By The U.S. Government For Over 200 Years Is Here
The Final Mystery Of the Great Seal of the U.S. Revealed
Video
Video

9,938

views

Invisible Empire - New Epic Video about the New World Order
Epic Video about the New World Order.
Video
Video

12,150

views

The Lie of the Serpent: Dr. Walter Veith Examines the New Age Movement's Relationship to the New World Order
The New Age Movement & The New World Order
Video Document
Video

31,328

views

Secret News
Whitewater, drug smuggling, and the bloodiest campaign trail in history
Text Document
Text

15,057

views

Secret News
Professional actors in politics and media
Video Document
Video

4,496

views

Secret News
The biggest conspiracy of all: Keeping it all in the family
Text Document
Text

14,994

views

Secret News
Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP): The language of politics
Video Document
Video

15,326

views

Secret News
Congressman Sherman tells it like it is; Is anyone listening?
Video Document
Video

17,644

views

Secret News
The only way to ensure privacy is to remove your cell phone battery
Video Document
Video

13,005

views

Secret News
Rep Kapture reveals epic crimes that remain unpunished
Video Document
Video

15,351

views

Secret News
The reason so many are sterile, sick and dying today
Video Document
Video

14,265

views

Secret News
Former U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney Says "No Evidence" for Bin Laden Involvement in 9-11
Video Document
Video

12,147

views

Secret News
The highest elected U.S. officials make sure they are exempt from justice.
Video Document
Video

13,100

views

Secret News
The murder of JFK cleared the way for the communist globalist agenda
Video Document
Video

3,105

views

Secret News
The world's largest military contractors exposed in "Iraq For Sale"
Video Document
Video

7,154

views

Secret News
A paradigm-changing video that everyone must see.
Video Document
Video

8,529

views

Secret News
This is a chilling video that exposes the use-or misuse-of the word "force" in HR1955
Video Document
Video

11,725

views

Secret News
A Hollywood producer told about 9/11 before it happened
Video Document
Video

5,380

views

Secret News
How many other news stories have been faked that we don't know about?
Video Document
Video

997

views

Secret News
Texas legislators on both sides of the iasle voting for each other
Video Document
Video

1,066

views

Secret News
Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Australian Prime Minister John Howard give the same speech
Video Document
Video

1,049

views

Secret News
Why are are few (not all) police working to promote hate and violence?
Text Document
Text

5,363

views

Secret News
New grassroots movement protects U.S. citizens against unlawful police action
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 844 guests, and 14 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
ShoutChat Box
May
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
Left Sidebar Ad
Popular Topics(Views)
338,805 DOES GOD EXIST?
253,905 Please HELP!!!
161,880 Open Conspiracy
106,469 History rules
98,676 Symmetry
87,723 oil pulling
Support Our Forum
Herbs/Nutrition
Only The Best HerbsOnly The Best Herbs!
Your best source of world-class herbal information! More...
Mercury Detox
Amalgam Illness: Diagnosis and Treatment by Dr. Andrew Cutler#1 Book We've Found!
"Silver" fillings, mercury detox, & much more. More...
Algin
AlginFor Mercury Detox
Prevent mercury reabsorption in the colon during detox. More...
Mercury Poisoning
DMSA, 25mg.Softcover & Kindle
Excellent resource for mercury detox. More...
DMSA 100mg
EDTA 500mg
DMSA, 25mg.For Mercury Chelation
For calcium chelation and heart health. More...
Vaccine Safety?
Vaccines: The Risks, The Benefits, The Choices by Dr. Sherri TenpennyMust for Every Parent
The most complete vaccine info on the planet. More...
Stop Candida!
Candida ClearFinally.
Relief! More...
Saying NO To Vaccines
Saying No To Vaccines by Dr. Sherri TenpennyDr. Sherri Tenpenny
Get the info you need to protect yourself. More...
Nano-Silver
Amalgam Illness: Diagnosis and Treatment by Dr. Andrew CutlerWhat everyone's talking about!
Safe, powerful, timely! More...
World's Best Vitamin E
Vitamin E wih SeleniumThere is a difference!
A powerful brain antioxidant for use during Hg detox. More...
It's All In Your Head
It's All In Your Head by Dr. Hal HugginsThis changed my life!
This book convinced me remove my fillings. More...
World's Best Multi
Super Supplemental - Full-Spectrum Multivitamin/Mineral/Herbal SupplementThis is what we use!
The only multi where you feel the difference. More...
Understand Hair Tests
Hair Test Interpretation: Finding Hidden Toxicities by Dr. Andrew CutlerHair Tests Explained!
Discover hidden toxicities, easily. More...
GABA
GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid)Have Racing Thoughts?
Many use GABA for anxiety and better sleep. More...
Pet Health Charts
Pet Health Charts for Dogs, Cats, Horses, and BirdsHelp Them!
Natural health for pets. More...
The Companion Bible (Hardcover)
The Companion BibleThe Bible We Use!
King James with study notes by Bullinger. More...
The Companion Bible (Softcover)
The Companion BibleThe Bible We Use!
King James with study notes by Bullinger. More...
Sweet Remedy
Sweet RemedyFood Additives
Protect your family from toxic food! More...
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Ken Ham, Dr Hugh Ross, Ray Comfort, Dr John A. Bloom, Sean McDowell, Eric Hovind All Sit Down And .. #69962
02/07/13 12:59 AM
02/07/13 12:59 AM
L
Lynnmn  Offline OP
Master Elite Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,707 ****
Talk...
Quote
If The Earth Is Young or Even If The Earth Is Old Evolution Is Still False Is One Thing They Do Agree On.
Even Well Meaning Bible Believing Christians Can Disagree!
We learn so much from listening to different points of view in the we have different interpretations.
Whoever one may agree with remember they Love The Lord!
Interesting Debate On Old Earth Young Earth Or Middle Earth.
Praise The Lord Video Debate On TBN.

http://www.itbn.org/index/detail/lib/Networks/sublib/TBN/ec/RjNW53NDodbPdWZMesby0hMNzxHCg2Kk

Re: Ken Ham, Dr Hugh Ross, Ray Comfort, Dr John A. Bloom, Sean McDowell, Eric Hovind All Sit Down And .. [Re: Lynnmn] #69963
02/07/13 01:32 AM
02/07/13 01:32 AM
L
Lynnmn  Offline OP
Master Elite Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,707 ****
Humans...... A Life Form That Is Intelligent Reveals There Is Super Intelligence Out There And The Natural Elements Are Not God 'They Are The Creation Of God!

Re: Ken Ham, Dr Hugh Ross, Ray Comfort, , Eric Hovind /Care to DEBATE the OEC? [Re: Lynnmn] #69969
02/07/13 03:23 PM
02/07/13 03:23 PM
Abigail  Offline
Master Elite Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 15,835 ****
Originally Posted by Lynnmn
Talk...
Quote
If The Earth Is Young or Even If The Earth Is Old Evolution Is Still False Is One Thing They Do Agree On.
Even Well Meaning Bible Believing Christians Can Disagree!
We learn so much from listening to different points of view in the we have different interpretations.
Whoever one may agree with remember they Love The Lord!
Interesting Debate On Old Earth Young Earth Or Middle Earth.
Praise The Lord Video Debate On TBN.
-----------

-----------------------
-- fyi
Ok, I see where you are getting on the internet for information to 'Prove Old Earth Creationism"? So, I will attempt to prove that theory is wrong. The earth is approximately 6,000 years old, as Ken Ham, Eric Hovind, John MacArthur, Jason Lisle, Henry Morris and several others have shared on the internet. I am in total agreeement with these men.

Those reading can call it a 'debate' or 'sharing' of two different opinions. How's that? I'll try to find our Moderator, CTD, and see what his input is.
------
--The Age of the Universe, Part 1
-By: Dr. Jason Lisle


--The age of the universe is a point of dispute between the Bible and the opinion of the majority of astronomers today. The Bible implicitly teaches us about the age of the universe. In other words, it gives us sufficient information so that we can compute approximately how long ago God created the universe. The Bible teaches that the entire universe was created in six earth-rotation days (Exodus 20:11 ). Furthermore, the Bible provides the age differences between parents and descendants1 when listing certain genealogies.

From these kinds of biblical references, we know that the elapsed time between Adam and the birth of Christ was roughly 4,000 years. From other historical records, we know that Christ was born roughly 2,000 years ago. Since Adam was created on the sixth day of the creation week, we can conclude that the earth, the entire universe, and everything in it were created approximately 6,000 years ago.

Many people today would scoff at this claim. After all, most geology textbooks, astronomy textbooks, and the majority of schools and universities teach that the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and that the universe is even older, but what is the basis for the secular belief in billions of years? Why is it that so many scientists choose to ignore the recorded history of the Bible, and instead believe in a vastly inflated age of the universe?

--Attached is the address (website), for the above Article material.
----------
<http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/tba/age-of-the-universe-1>



Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]
Re: Ken Ham, Dr Hugh Ross, Ray Comfort, , Eric Hovind /Care to DEBATE the OEC? [Re: Abigail] #70479
03/28/13 07:28 PM
03/28/13 07:28 PM
L
Lynnmn  Offline OP
Master Elite Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,707 ****
We must remember it's faith in Christ that saves us.
It's not if we get the correct age of the universe we are saved.

Quote
That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Romans 10:9


From that televised debate between experts on the subject of which can also be viewed on the web... I found what Sean McDowell added to the debate to be the most important issue of the day. The issue is about bringing the issue to young people and in a way they can understand. We are losing our younger generation because they appreciate listening to the so called experts in a seemingly scientific intelligent presentation which makes these debates valuable tools. Sean McDowell speaks at schools & universities and to young people and older people in Church settings. It's about presenting the facts and arguments for or against in an educational way. Plus this models to others how Christians who may disagree on certain conclusions can sit down together and shake hands at the end of the day. I think these civil debates between experts for all to see is what a person could really learn more from then just listening to one side. I really enjoyed the debate Christanity needs to be seen in the light of the day. Wether these speakers agree or not on how old the universe really is.

Re: Ken Ham, Dr Hugh Ross, Ray Comfort, , Eric Hovind /Care to DEBATE the OEC? [Re: Lynnmn] #70480
03/28/13 07:47 PM
03/28/13 07:47 PM
L
Lynnmn  Offline OP
Master Elite Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,707 ****
That Ken Ham, Dr Hugh Ross, Ray Comfort, Dr John A. Bloom, Sean McDowell, Eric Hovind Can All Sit Down together and discuss this together for all to see is a positive thing.
I enjoyed watching the debate. I thought Sean McDowell brought up some good points about how do we reach our young people and thats what he does. He is a very good speaker very intelligent.

On Evolution (Sean McDowell)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R8cv092u0E

His web site World View Ministries

http://seanmcdowell.org/index.php/media/

I consider all the debaters named above intelligent.
I really enjoyed the 2 hour debate.


How Old Is The Universe? Astronomers Debate The Scientific Evidence Dr Danny Faulkner & Dr H Ross.. [Re: Lynnmn] #70481
03/28/13 09:22 PM
03/28/13 09:22 PM
L
Lynnmn  Offline OP
Master Elite Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,707 ****
Plus(Post Debate Dr Pamela Gay, Dr William Keel, and Dr Donald York not on video a historical scientific event with televison host Dr John Ankerberg 2012.
Debating the latest findings from astronomy to support their conclusions. There will be scientific analysis involving 13 of the world's top astronomers. It will feature 6 hours of lively debate and discussion 6 hours in Part 1 & 2 and six hours of debate in part 3 & 4 in the most advanced knowledge offered from astronomy to measure the age of the universe and it's implications for our world and beliefs. It says whatever your perspective, you'll find the information a fascinating wealth of evidence regarding the vital role astronomy plays in the question " How Old Is The Universe?
There are 5 people seated in the picture with the host.It looks like it's going to be a lively debate to watch.

http://www.johnankerberg.org/resources/how-old-is-the-universe-dvd.html
Will it change anybodies mind in the DVD? Who knows but it should be interesting to watch and to see. Instead of one sided it's good they can sit down and debate for all to see.
Quote
But will the agreement on the age of the universe save us & lead us to salvation?
Only Yeshua/Jesus can do that but for those who totally disregard others beliefs, these debates may help change ones mind on that from labeling one that does not believe in evolution as 'non intelligent.' Many people who do not believe in evolution are quite intelligent which these debates will show.
Can't wait to watch it! It came out in 2012. Brand new!

Re: Ken Ham, Dr Hugh Ross, Ray Comfort, Dr John A. Bloom, Sean McDowell, Eric Hovind All Sit Down And .. [Re: Lynnmn] #70486
03/29/13 10:43 AM
03/29/13 10:43 AM
Abigail  Offline
Master Elite Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 15,835 ****

fyi
-Should a Church Take a Stand On Creation?
-by John D. Morris, Ph.D.


Recently my family and I joined a small church plant pastored by a former student of mine at Christian Heritage College—a man of real wisdom and integrity.

A church constitution was being written, which, of course, included a Statement of Faith. A solid creation and young-earth plank appeared in the first draft.

Although there was no disagreement among the members (many of whom were young Christians) as to the doctrine of special, recent creation, there was concern in making this a requirement for membership. I was asked to comment.

Given the fact that most of America's Bible colleges and seminaries would not even agree with the content of the plank, I acknowledged my own hesitancy about being so exclusive, but I proceeded to demonstrate how beliefs in creation and a young earth are integral parts of Christianity.

-The doctrine of God is at stake. for example, is the God of the Bible a gracious, purposeful God of wisdom, or does He resort to trial and error in His deeds, testing His creation by survival of the fittest and delighting in the extinction of the weaker? Is God long ago and far away—only occasionally involved, or is He near and intimately concerned with the affairs of life?

star-The doctrine of Scripture comes into play. There are few Biblical teachings as clear as that of creation in six days and the companion doctrine of the global flood. Yet these two teachings are denied and ridiculed in many Christian churches today. Can the Scriptures be trusted? Can God say what He means? If a Christian can distort Scripture to teach such beliefs as evolution, progressive creation, an old earth, or a local flood, can that Christian be trusted with other doctrines?

-The doctrine of man becomes skewed. Can man, with a brain and reasoning powers distorted by the curse, evaluating only a portion of the evidence, accurately reconstruct the history of the universe? Should his historical reconstructions be put on a higher plane than Scripture? Or is man and his mind locked in the effects of the curse—a poor reflection of the once glorious "image of God"—now blinded by sin and the god of this world, seeing things through a glass darkly?"

-The doctrine of sin becomes questionable. If death and bloodshed preceded Adam's rebellion against God, then what are "the ways of sin?" How did the entrance of sin change things?

-The doctrine of salvation likewise falls, for if death preceded sin, then death is not the penalty for sin, and Christ's death on the cross—accomplished nothing. Any form of evolution and old-earth thinking is incompatible with the work of Christ.

I still am uncertain about young-earth creationism being a requirement for church membership; perhaps it would be proper to give new members time to grow and mature under good teaching.

But I do know one thing: Creationism should be a requirement for Christian leadership! No church should sanction a pastor, Sunday school teacher, deacon, elder, or Bible-study leader who knowledgeably and purposefully errs on this crucial doctrine.
*Dr. John Morris is the President of ICR.



Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]
Re: Ken Ham, Dr Hugh Ross, Ray Comfort, Dr John A. Bloom, Sean McDowell, Eric Hovind All Sit Down And .. [Re: Lynnmn] #70487
03/29/13 11:00 AM
03/29/13 11:00 AM
Abigail  Offline
Master Elite Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 15,835 ****

-What is the true age of the earth?

Many Earth clocks indicate recent creation. Measuring the rate at which worldwide processes function provides a "clock" by which the age of the earth may be calculated. Many of these processes yield thousands of years, rather than billions.

Diamonds and Strata Have Too Much Carbon 14
Carbon 14 has been measured within natural diamonds, evidence that the earth is thousands of years old. More...

star--Check this out...
This is from the Institute for Creation Research:
True Age of the Earth (http://www.icr.org/age-of-the-earth/)

--About ICR
ICR equips believers with evidence of the Bible's accuracy and authority through scientific research, educational programs, and media presentations, all conducted within a thoroughly biblical framework.


Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]
Re: Ken Ham, Dr Hugh Ross, Ray Comfort, Dr John A. Bloom, Sean McDowell, Eric Hovind All Sit Down And .. [Re: Abigail] #70521
04/02/13 05:07 PM
04/02/13 05:07 PM
L
Lynnmn  Offline OP
Master Elite Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,707 ****
Quote
As Christians of course we Do Not associate evolution with our beginnings. We believe in Creation as a fact!
I watched all 4 DVD's on How Old Is The Universe? Astronomers Debate The Scientific Evidence. It's a DVD set so new that it is "not even" found on You-Tube. Wether one agreed with Dr Danny R. Faulkner or Dr Hugh Ross 'Jesus told us what we must do to be saved excepting Him as our Lord and Savior and believing He was crucified and rose from the dead which we do.

On the Part Number 1 DVD Dr Danny R. Faulkner presented his views. A whole DVD was devoted to just him. On the Part 2 DVD a whole DVD was devoted to Dr Hugh Ross. On the Part 3 DVD was Dr Donald York, Dr William Keel and Dr Pamela Gay who went over both views as Dr Faulkner and Dr Ross presented them.
A whole DVD was devoted to that. On the last the 4th DVD Dr Faulkner, Dr Ross, Dr York, Dr Keel and Dr Gay all got together with scientific analysis involving 13 of the world's top astronomers which resulted in a formal statement as well as a last Critique from them all. It was an amazing debate!
What was the outcome?

Re: Ken Ham, Dr Hugh Ross, Ray Comfort, Dr John A. Bloom, Sean McDowell, Eric Hovind All Sit Down And .. [Re: Lynnmn] #70522
04/02/13 05:57 PM
04/02/13 05:57 PM
L
Lynnmn  Offline OP
Master Elite Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,707 ****
Quote
They were all very intelligent speakers and did agree that the word Yom can have 4 different meanings and even mean a long finate period of time.
That was agreed on. Even For example, when summarizing God's creative work, Moses referes to all six creative days as one day in Genesis 2:4.

I thought Dr Pamela Gay brought up a good point that we were children when Genesis was revealed. That it was revealed to us in terms we could understand and for complete details on her response " one needs to view the DVD's."
Biblical Hebrew was brought up as an issue of translation and interpertation of Genesis and how there are 27 passages and 1500 creation texts throughout the Bible to read and they are just as valid as one Book in the Bible.That God gave us all the text to teach us truth.
That was a good point bringing that up as well.
I was also surprised as I did not know the hosts John Ankerbergs view on this subject that he use to be a firm believer in a literal translation and argued the point with his professor at the time who was a Hebrew Scholar.
He has changed his view since. He said the language persuaded him to change his mind. He named the professor and something about Billy Graham can't remember exactly what have to watch the fourth DVD over again it was alot to take in. I want to look up this professor and the book he mentioned that he wrote.
I would rate this DVD series 5 stars for allowing everyone a lot of time to explain their views and their evidences and exposing them to the light of the day with additional expert representives. Plus, all being able to shake hands at the end of the results no matter if one did not change their views on the subject because of it.
It was well done and I learned alot from it.

Re: Ken Ham, Dr Hugh Ross, Ray Comfort, Dr John A. Bloom, Sean McDowell, Eric Hovind All Sit Down And .. [Re: Lynnmn] #70523
04/02/13 06:36 PM
04/02/13 06:36 PM
L
Lynnmn  Offline OP
Master Elite Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,707 ****
I just wanted to point out that in the Part 2 DVD that Dr Hugh Ross spoke in....
He brought up and answered to some issues that Ken Ham has had on this subject which is best to be viewed on the DVD itself.
Dr Danny Faulkner presented the Young Universe view and they were all very polite and well spoken.
Because of the Hebrew Language issue and other texts in the Bible and the presentation itself. I tend to lean toward the Old Universe view. Yet young earth or old earth does not change my belief that God Created it and God has all the time in the world to do it however He wants to do it. Time is only limited for us in this world.
As the Hebrew and Greek being very expressive languages and English translations don't get translated properly. That the English language is not inspired it's the orignal language and meaning that is inspired is debated on this video on you tube.

Bill Morford The Bible hijacked by the English translators.m4v

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoQBEqm8nPI

Bill Morford 2 Bible hijacked by English translators.m4v .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfsys6MK_Xc

Re: Ken Ham, Dr Hugh Ross, Ray Comfort, Dr John A. Bloom, Sean McDowell, Eric Hovind All Sit Down And .. [Re: Lynnmn] #70524
04/02/13 07:18 PM
04/02/13 07:18 PM
L
Lynnmn  Offline OP
Master Elite Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,707 ****
As the Hebrew And Greek Language and interpretation being about the main issue for differences between Bible believing Christian's...
A forum to bring the different views together in a forum such as John Ankerberg has done would be very helpful for those who disagree yet are Biblical Christians. I phoned The John Ankerberg show and told them I really enjoyed how this debate was put together on How Old Is The Universe and would like to see this format done with other issues in Christianity.
One I brought up and even though Pastor Doug seems to believe in 6 literal days of Creation as presented here.

Central Study Hour - In the Beginning - Pastor Doug Batchelor .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEefgTMHjoQ

He has a slightly different view on the subject of Hell based on Translation of the Hebrew and Greek and other verses in the Bible. Like here in his debate with both points of view.

Doctrines That Divide: The Afterlife (Part 5 of Series)- (Doug Batchelor) AmazingFacts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zi2teWAUFo

This of course is a different subject but related to the DVD's Series above as this subject in a forum such as that would lay it all out so all could view it with it's conclusion.
They said they did not have a DVDs series on the subject like this but would send me a pamplet but that's not the same.
Lots of people don't read or throw out pamplets or have read many pamplets.
It needs to be layed out on all sides in a forum like this for all to understand clearly. And with someone like Pastor Doug in the panel. I'm going to suggest it as this subject is another big disagreement between Christians who love Jesus!
It would turn out to be a really interesting DVD series for sure!
Just my thoughts on it.

Re: The John Ankerberg Show & Dr Danny Faulkner, Dr Huge Ross, Dr York, Dr Keel, Dr Gay Debate...... [Re: Lynnmn] #70546
04/04/13 10:19 PM
04/04/13 10:19 PM
L
Lynnmn  Offline OP
Master Elite Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,707 ****
Figures Of Speech In The Bible & The Complexity of The Hebrew & Greek Language.
Quote
Even For example, when summarizing God's creative work, Moses referes to all six creative days as one day in Genesis 2:4.

Yet, it wasen't in one day.
Quote
So how old was the beginning?
In The Beginning Was Jesus!
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

Yet still.
Quote
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:1


Quote
So how old is Jesus and when was the beginning?
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6

As Dr. Danny Faulkner and Dr Hugh Ross did agree that the word Yom can have 4 different meanings and even mean a long finate period of time and that was agreed on. That is how the word in the beginning could also have a greater meaning to it as well. That is also how Pastor Doug could interpret the Hebrew word yom as 6 literal days and another could interpret it as a thousand years and another as a long finate period of time. But still "agree" that God created it.
And that is how Pastor Doug who seems to believe in 6 literal days of Creation can also at the same time have a slightly different interpretation of the wording on the subject of hell when you look into the Greek and Hebrew.
Just because there may be more then one use for that word in the original translation "besides the standard English version choice."
There are still perimeters and limits surrounding the orginal words. As John Ankerberg said the language persuaded him to change his mind and that goes for others who have changed their mind too..
I will let the language lead me as well and that is why it would we wonderful to see on his show in this manner done the debate by the experts in the subject on both sides with..
" Bible Scholars of the Hebrew and Greek and History.
Otherwise there is the Exhaustive Concordance to consider too.
Let the chips fall where they may in translation it would be a really interesting debate to see. I'd watch it.

Re: The John Ankerberg Show & Dr Danny Faulkner, Dr Huge Ross, [Let's discuss Hugh Ross] [Re: Lynnmn] #70548
04/05/13 11:47 AM
04/05/13 11:47 AM
Abigail  Offline
Master Elite Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 15,835 ****

Thank you, Lynn for the time spent on comparing the differences of opinions with several men, mentioned in your posts. There is ONE man for certainty that should not even be quoted. For almost a year, I was with our moderator, where Hugh Ross was proven to be totally off base on another Website, [The name has changed a few times, once, "Reasonable Faith"/ with William Lane Craig] .
Hugh Ross changes scriptures to fit his understanding, which incidently is ludicrous. I'll stop, and let the readers decide. He is in support of progressive creation and the Big Bang Theory ,of how our Sovereign Lord created heavens and earth. I found him lacking in tact/taste on his definition of John 3:16. Let's read it from ICR.....

fyi
-The Dubious Apologetics of Hugh Ross
-Danny Faulkner, Ph.D. Astronomy

----
The astronomer Hugh Ross has had a great impact on many churches and individuals in recent years. His organization, Reasons to Believe, coordinates his many speaking engagements and publishes a newsletter called Facts and Faith. He has written six popular level books on the Bible, science, and apologetics.1,2,3,4,5,6 The secret of Ross’s appeal is that he claims that modern science has confirmed many things about the origin and history of the world that the Bible had previously told us. This gives some believers spiritual encouragement and a great deal of intellectual satisfaction.

{NOTE}To accomplish this harmonization of the Bible and science, Ross has embraced much of what modern science has to say about origins. In short, Ross supports the big bang theory, the 4.6 Ga (1 Ga = 109 years) age of the earth, and virtually all of what establishment paleontology claims about the history of life on earth including the order of appearance of different groups. In fairness to Ross, it should be emphasized that he does reject the concept of biological evolution, opting instead for progressive creation.

Ross argues that science alone can drive men to the correct understanding of our origin and hence see the necessity of a Creator. But this assumes that fallible men using a man-made (and hence fallible) methodology (science—in particular origins science7) with an incorrect postulate (atheism) can come to the truth about God. It would be most unexpected and illogical for a system of thought to reach a conclusion that is in contradiction to one of the basic postulates of that system.

This paradox underscores Ross’s greatest misconception of how modern science works vis-à-vis the question of origins. As Johnson has pointed out, modern science, even origins science, by its very nature starts with the assumption of materialism.

This assumption excludes consideration of any metaphysical reality, and leads to such quotes as those of the late Carl Sagan, ‘The cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be.’9 This assumption is blatantly atheistic. That does not mean that all, or even most, scientists are atheists. It merely means that the total exclusion of any possibility of a Deity makes most of modern science an atheistic enterprise, at least tacitly.

Ross brings the question of a Deity into the discussion rather late, which makes God an ad hoc insertion. This also fails to correctly estimate the true atheistic nature of science as practised today. This is best illustrated by Ross’s use of the big bang model as a large part of his apologetic, which will be explored later.

Van Bebber and Taylor have reported on the questionable biblical teachings of Ross.10 While this work has alerted some to Ross’s theological problems, many in the church resist that message, primarily because they are convinced that Ross has overpowering scientific arguments for an old earth and universe to which the Bible must be accommodated. Of course, accommodating the Bible to science is the exact opposite of what many intend, but this is what I have observed. Most theologians, pastors, and laymen lack the expertise to adequately evaluate Ross’s scientific claims. Most critiques of Ross have taken the approach of attacking his theological position, because this is obviously the root of his problem. But are the scientific arguments of Ross as powerful as many seem to think?

This paper will examine some of the scientific claims of Hugh Ross, particularly in his discipline of astronomy. While science is the primary emphasis here, it is important to mention a few theological issues as well. It will be shown that in both science and theology, Ross often grossly overstates his case and handles information incorrectly.

-Biblical Issues
-General and Special Revelation

Psalm 19:1-4 and Romans 1:19-20 state that the world around us indicates that there is a Creator. This limited information of God that the physical world impresses upon the minds of men is often called general revelation, as opposed to the special revelation of the Bible. Both reveal some information about God, but Ross elevates what the physical world reveals nearly to the level of Scripture itself. This is called the dual revelation theory. It is argued that since God is the author of both books, the Bible and the book of nature, the two must necessarily agree. Ross has expanded the dual revelation theory to the point of likening nature to the sixty-seventh book of the Bible.11

There are several problems with this approach. First, the Bible never makes such a claim for nature. While the two passages mentioned above state that God’s existence can be inferred from nature, they hardly elevate nature to the level to which Ross insists it must be raised. Ross lists a number of other biblical texts that supposedly support his position on dual revelation.12 An examination of all of those verses reveals that they do no such thing: they generally give fewer specifics than Psalm 19 and Romans 1. The equation of nature as the 67th book of the Bible is an inference that Ross has made. Any systematic study of Scripture involves inferences, but those inferences must be continually compared to other passages to check their legitimacy. This is particularly sobering in light of the warning of Revelation 22:18 against adding to the words of the Bible. Such a major expansion of God’s revelation should be very carefully scrutinized. Ross has overstated his argument for the dual revelation theory, and the many passages used to allegedly make his case illustrate his attempt to win the reader’s support with a blizzard of citations.

The second problem is the specific attributes of God that Ross claims can be deduced from general revelation. Ross has given a list of seven such attributes.13 The first attribute claimed, that God exists, comes straight out of Romans 1. Romans 1 also states that God’s mighty power may be inferred from nature, which appears to be part of Ross’s attribute number two. While Romans 1 only mentions these two attributes, Ross continues with four or five more, including such items as God’s perfection, justice, love, and mercy. Since neither Romans 1 nor Psalm 19 in any way mention those attributes in the context of general revelation, Ross must have gleaned them from elsewhere. The most obvious source is the rest of the book of Romans and the Bible, which illustrates the gross inadequacy of general revelation. General revelation is sufficient to draw man’s mind to the thoughts of a creator; but to really know God, one must turn to special revelation.

This inadequacy of general revelation is clearly illustrated by the entire Psalm 19. The first four verses discuss the declaration of God’s glory by the heavens, and the next two expand on the sun’s role in the heavens. Verse three is translated in the KJV (and similarly in the NIV) as, ‘There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard,’ which is usually understood to refer to the universality of their message. Three of those words are in italics in the KJV, indicating that they are not in the original Hebrew. It is possible that verse three actually should read, ‘no speech nor language, their voice is not heard.’ This is the sense of the translation of the NASB, NJB, and NRSV. In other words, what may be emphasized here is that the message of the heavens is non-verbal and unwritten. Such communication is quite limited, which is why the remainder of the Psalm is so important. The final seven verses delineate what the Law and the Prophets can do. The seventh verse alone states, ‘The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.’ Notice that this is far more specific and powerful than any claim made for general revelation.

The truly important things about God that one must know can be found only in Scripture. Ross obviously knows these things from Scripture, and he attempts to imprint them onto general revelation. Scripture does not support this. Indeed, it appears contrary to clear teaching of Scripture— if Ross were right, there would be no need for missionary activity, contrary to Rom. 10:13 ff. In his zeal to make a strong case, Ross has grossly overstated this argument. At best, this is sloppy logic and exegesis, and his equation of general and special revelation is seriously flawed.

A third problem for the dual revelation theory is the question of what constitutes data in either case. If the facts of nature and the facts of the Bible must agree, then what are the facts of either domain? We can agree that the 66 canonical books of the Bible are the facts of special revelation, but what are the facts of nature? Ross would have us accept the interpretations of the majority of scientists as the ‘facts’ of science or nature. But new ‘facts’ or interpretations of science are discovered every day, while old ‘facts’ are just as often discarded. The history of science is littered with the wrecks of ideas that were at one time considered to be ‘true’, but have long since fallen out of favour. Elevating this body of knowledge with its changing character to the same level as the Bible should alarm all Christians who are committed to the authority of Scripture.

A fourth problem is Ross’s slick exchange of science for nature. Ross argues as follows. There are two books: the book of nature and the Bible. God is the author of both, so both must agree. So far this seems reasonable. Then Ross subtly equates science for nature, from which one could infer that science and the Bible should be equated in authority. Most of Ross’s intended audience would have abandoned him had he made such a claim, because this is precisely the sort of equation that most liberals have made. Science is the (man-made) way that we have to study nature. If Ross wants to make the correct analogy, it should be to exegesis, which is the (man-made) way of studying the Bible. It is not clear whether Ross consciously made this slippery switch. More likely, this swap escaped his notice. If that is so, then such a logical fallacy would cast doubt on his competence.

Fifth, Scripture teaches that the creation is cursed (Gen. 3:17-19, Rom. 8:20-22), but Scripture itself is ‘God-breathed’ (2 Tim. 3:15-17). So how can a cursed creation interpreted by a fallible methodology of sinful humans determine how we interpret the perfect, unfallen Word of God? As the systematic theologian Louis Berkhof pointed out:

‘...Since the entrance of sin into the world, man can gather true knowledge about God from His general revelation only if he studies it in the light of Scripture, in which the elements of God’s original self-revelation, which were obscured and perverted by the blight of sin, are republished, corrected, and interpreted. ...

Some are inclined to speak of God’s general revelation as a second source; but this is hardly correct in view of the fact that nature can come into consideration here only as interpreted in the light of Scripture.’14

-Christless Creationism?
Ross’s general sloppiness in handling Scripture was greatly demonstrated by an address that he recently gave at Dallas Theological Seminary. In that address he stated:

‘Therefore it allows me to make an interesting paraphrase of John 3:16, if you’ll permit—“For God so loved the human race that He went to the expense of building a hundred billion trillion stars and carefully shaped and crafted them for sixteen billion years so that at this brief moment in time we could all have a nice place to live.”’ 15

Anyone even remotely familiar with John 3:16 is struck by the glaring omissions of this paraphrase. No mention is made of such important terms as ‘only begotten (Greek monogenes = unique, special)’ ‘Son,’ ‘believe,’ ‘not perish,’ and ‘everlasting life.’ This is either blasphemy to the point of heresy or gross carelessness of the first rank.

It is almost inconceivable that Ross really believes this, so one must conclude that he was shooting from the hip. Assuming that that is the case, then it appears that Ross is guilty of dealing with Scripture in a cavalier manner, which is precisely my point. Ross has received a virtual free ride from many pastors and apologists despite these sorts of outrageous views, primarily because these Christian leaders have been intimidated by his scientific pronouncements. But his science is full of errors, contrary to what many believe. His sloppy handling of Scripture and manner of gross overstatement are unfortunately his method of operation in science as well.

Problems with the ‘Day-Age’ Theory
Most of Ross’s intended audience know little about science, so they will accept his pronouncements on scientific issues without much question. This deference to the supposed impressive science permits him to play loosely with biblical texts. Like any other ‘day-age’ proponent, Ross believes that the days of the creation week were long periods of time. Of course, there are numerous textual problems with the day-age theory that are discussed elsewhere.17,18

Another major problem is that the ordering of the events of Genesis does not even agree with the pronouncements of modern science, with which day-age theorists are so eager to harmonise. To answer this difficulty, Ross appeals to overlapping days.19 For instance, the creation of plants was on the third day, before the creation of animals on days five and six. But the plants that are specifically mentioned as being created on day three are flowering plants, plants that according to most scientists appeared very recently. This would seem to place these plants during day six when creeping things were created. Ross explains this by claiming that it is the first appearance of plants that is important, hence their mention so early on day three. On the other hand, Ross claims that birds and fish are mentioned on day five, despite the fact that this makes no sense in terms of the usual order that modern science claims. Does Ross reject modern science on this? No, he argues that day five overlaps partly with days three and four, and probably six as well. It is interesting that the details of Ross’s teaching on this are not found in references 2-5. His latest book contains some details,20 but the greatest details are found in his audio tapes and pamphlets, which enjoy far less circulation and publicity than his books.

Ross repeatedly shuffles the events of creation to claim that those events that occurred on different days did not, while those events that occurred on the same day actually happened at different times. Under such contrived rules of interpretation the motif of a six-day creation, if you will, begins to collapse. What would have happened to the ancient Hebrews if they would have applied this reasoning to their week (Exodus 20:8-11)? They could have concluded that if they rested during some of the first six days of the week, then they could have worked on the Sabbath. After all, the Lord had overlapped his actions during the days of the creation week, so why could not they? It is obvious that such an attitude would have been an affront to the Lord of Creation. In like fashion, so is Ross’s ‘overlapping days’ notion.

Ross’s pronouncement that the book of nature (science) is akin to the 67th book of the Bible is frightening enough. Yet the manner in which he cavalierly reinterprets Scripture to match what ‘science’ says, clearly demonstrates that he really holds ‘science’ in higher esteem, contrary to Berkhof’s wise admonition.14

Equally frustrating is Ross’s claim that modern (uniformitarian) science has borne out the claims of the Bible about origins. Both of these practices amount to deceptive advertising. When one really examines his claims, it is obvious that Ross can only achieve the harmonization he desires by conducting surgery on the biblical account of creation. Unfortunately, most people in his intended audience never grasp what he has done. In retailing, this sort of practice is known as ‘bait and switch.’

-Looseness with Lexicons
Ross’s poor scholarship extends to biblical studies as well. For instance, Van Bebber and Taylor have shown that Ross has cited lexicons and word books to support his claims to meanings of Hebrew words, when in reality those references say exactly the opposite of what Ross claims.21 From this one can only conclude that either Ross is dishonest or that he is a careless and incompetent researcher. Neither possibility should be palatable to those who rely upon his apologetics. The biggest puzzle is why so many Christian leaders and seminary professors have not abandoned him already.

Scientific IssuesRoss’s Big Bang Apologetic

Before turning to scientific issues, it would be good to briefly discuss the biblical issues surrounding one of the main thrusts of Hugh Ross’s apologetics, the big bang. His argument has some similarity to that of Robert Jastrow more than two decades ago in his book, God and the Astronomers.16 Jastrow pointed out that throughout time, most people have believed that the universe had always existed. Only in the 20th century and with the rise of the big bang model have most people come to believe that the universe had a beginning. Of course this one point is in agreement with what Christian theologians have supposedly said all along, which is the whole point of Jastrow’s book. While Jastrow is an agnostic, he found it fascinating that modern science has grudgingly come into agreement with the Bible on that one issue. Ross goes beyond Jastrow and argues that the big bang model is in perfect agreement with the biblical account of creation.

Ross makes much use of the principle of causality in conjunction with the big bang to argue for God’s existence. Causality means that any event that occurs (an effect) has some cause. Let A be a cause, and B be its effect. Then logically one can say that A causes B. All effects in turn become causes of new effects, and so forth. At any time there are countless chains of cause and effect that are parallel and intertwined with one another. Conversely every effect must have a cause. Logicians and philosophers have long recognized that in the distant past there may have been an ‘uncaused cause.’ That is, there was a cause that was not the effect of an earlier cause, and from which all subsequent cause and effect relationships descended. There are philosophical debates on causality that cannot be covered here.

Of course many would identify the uncaused cause as God. However, in an eternal universe there would be no need of an uncaused cause, because cause and effect would have been operating over all time. This avoidance of an uncaused cause may have been the appeal that the eternal universe had in Western thought. As Jastrow and Ross point out, the big bang theory posits that the universe had a beginning, so that an infinite chain of cause and effect relationships is no longer tenable. Jastrow and Ross disagree on the identity of the uncaused cause. Ross certainly identifies it as the God of the Bible. Jastrow would insist that the big bang was the uncaused cause. He is not alone: many other scientists share this assessment, as shown below.

Ross also claims that many astronomers have been led to a belief in a personal Creator because of the big bang model, but he fails to mention any names. To the contrary, the biggest names in cosmology today could be described as agnostics or pantheists at best. Most are avowed atheists, so for Ross to mislead people in this way is unconscionable. Much speculation and theoretical research has been expended in developing a way in which the universe could come into existence strictly by natural processes consistent with the physical laws operating in the universe. The majority agrees that the most promising mechanism is the view that the universe arose as a quantum fluctuation, with no supernatural agent involved.

The quantum fluctuation theory of the big bang will not be elaborated here. Suffice it to say that following the Heisenberg uncertainty principle of quantum mechanics, there can be trifling violations of the law of conservation of energy, provided that the violations exist for very short periods of time. The smaller an energy violation, the longer that the violation can last. In this view, the total energy of the universe is precisely zero, so the violation (the universe) could exist forever. Astrophysicists must very cleverly devise ways in which the total energy of the universe can be zero. While this idea is not universally accepted, and there are major logical problems with it,22 it is the obvious trend of current research.

There are other non-theistic possibilities that leading big bang cosmologists have explored. The inflationary model of the universe is a related topic. Alan Guth, the author of this idea, has stated that ‘In the context of inflationary cosmology, it is fair to say that the universe is the ultimate free lunch.’23 Some models postulate a number of inflationary universes. These seem to suggest that the universe has a ‘frothy’ structure so that new (potential) universes pop into existence through quantum fluctuations. Most of these cease to exist very quickly, but occasionally some undergo rapid expansion (inflation), and in the process separate from our universe. Just as our universe gives birth to new universes, ours was birthed by an earlier one (without the need of a deistic midwife). This obviously becomes a metaphysical exercise, but the theory does allow our finite universe to be a small link in an eternal chain, so that a Creator is again unnecessary.

Any read of the plethora of popular books about the big bang reveals just how out of step Ross is on the point of theism and the big bang theory. It is very clear that in God and the Astronomers, Jastrow does not endorse theism but only comments that Christian and Jewish theologians were apparently right all along on the question of whether our universe had an origin. While Hawking24 and Davies25 frequently use the word ‘God’, it is quite obvious that they have an entirely different definition of the word than Christians do. Their God (or more properly, god) is identical to how Einstein used the term. All three use ‘god’ to mean some order imposed upon the physical universe. No matter what Ross claims, their views are completely contrary to the personal God of the Bible. Many other scientists who have written on the topic, such as Weinberg26 and Rees27 pretty much remain silent about the topic of a deity. The obvious implication is that most of these researchers and writers view a Creator as totally unnecessary.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the big bang model (philosophy) that Ross and other Christian apologists who embrace the big bang have. The big bang is the ultimate atheistic, purely physical, totally naturalistic explanation. Russell Humphreys has pointed out a very important popular misunderstanding of the big bang by Ross and other popular writers. The ‘big bang’ is actually based on a non-scientific assumption called the cosmological principle, which states that an observer’s view of the universe depends neither on the direction in which he looks nor on his location. That is, the earth is nowhere special.28

Biological evolution is an attempt to explain life apart from a creator, and Ross rightly rejects this, though his alternative of progressive creation is fraught with problems. Geological evolution does the same for the earth, and Ross seems to accept all of it, although it is intimately related to biological evolution. The big bang model is an attempt to explain the origin of the universe apart from a Creator, though Ross and others fail to see this. Contrary to what Ross claims, nearly all big bang cosmologists are not theists and are very vocal about their beliefs (or disbeliefs). Most would view the introduction of a Creator at some point as an ad hoc assumption. For Ross to mislead his readers by claiming that they have accepted a personal Creator is inexcusable.

-String theory in the Bible?
When presenting an argument, Hugh Ross frequently overstates his case. A good example can be found in his fourth book, Beyond the Cosmos. Some of my observations on the work have been previously published in a book review.29 In this book, Ross uses a very current idea called string theory to explain a number of theological problems. String theory postulates that there are six dimensions of space in addition to the normal three dimensions. These extra six dimensions are not directly observable today, but according to the theory they do have effects upon the interaction of elementary particles and the structure of the universe. The theory was devised to explain some features of the universe. The problem is that there is as yet no confirming evidence that this theory is true. The theory is controversial, and there are competing theories. The highly speculative nature of the theory would not be grasped by most people who read Ross’s book, because Ross presents it as if it is well established.

Assuming that string theory is true, Ross concludes that God must work in these extra dimensions. Ross further argues that there must be at least one extra time dimension in which God works, for a total of at least eleven dimensions at God’s disposal. This extra-dimensionality becomes the thesis of Beyond the Cosmos. Since God is working in extra dimensions and especially the extra time dimension, God has an infinite amount of time during each instant to accomplish His many tasks. This supposedly enables God to hear the prayers of millions of believers simultaneously and for Jesus to have suffered for each person individually during His crucifixion. Ross also claims that this extra-dimensionality explains other difficult topics such as the Trinity, omnipresence, and predestination.

Besides the questionable status of string theory, there are several problems with Ross’s approach here. It seems presumptuous to the point of arrogance to suggest that only in the latter twentieth century have we learned enough to finally grasp some of the theological issues raised and supposedly answered by Ross. Ross argues that Augustine made a mistake and took nearly everyone afterwards with him in concluding that God operates outside of space and time. Instead, Ross insists that God must operate within space and time, which necessitates the additional dimensions. Ross’s claims on this matter seems to suggest that God is somehow confined by time. Of course God can operate in or out of time as He chooses, so why would He confine Himself to operate within one of His own creations? Even a self-described Ross-supporter, the philosopher/apologist William Lane Craig, has severely criticised Ross’s teachings on this:

‘... I have been mystified by evangelicals’ apparently uncritical acquiescence to some of the positions advocated in this book [Ref. 4].

‘... I find his attempt to construe God as existing in hyperdimensions of time and space and to interpret Christian doctrines in that light to be both philosophically and theologically unacceptable.’ 30


-Misunderstanding General Relativity

Beyond the Cosmos also contains some scientific errors that illustrate how poorly Hugh Ross handles scientific issues. For instance, Ross states that general relativity (GR) does not allow for any absolute reference frame with which to measure velocities.31 This is probably one of the most common incorrect but popular beliefs about GR. Mach’s principle, which is one of the basic assumptions of GR, states that the velocity of an object may be measured unambiguously with respect to the sum of the rest of the material in the universe. Thus this frame of reference constitutes the preferred frame for the universe. Classically, this preferred frame of reference has been distant stars or galaxies. With today’s understanding of cosmology, it is believed that the 3 K cosmic background radiation (CBR) represents the preferred frame of Mach’s principle. Anisotropy in the CBR has enabled us to measure our speed through space with respect to this frame. It is quite surprising that Ross does not realize this.

-Comets
In his book Creation and Time, Ross commits other blunders that call into question his competence. He discusses the claim that the existence of comets is an argument for a recent origin for the solar system32 (an issue I have recently reviewed33). Amazingly, Ross dismisses this argument by insisting that comets have an interstellar origin. That is, comets are not part of the solar system but merely pass through the inner solar system from time to time. Interstellar comets would enter the solar system with hyperbolic orbits and speeds exceeding the escape velocity, but this is not observed. Therefore while this answer has been entertained in the past, virtually no astronomers accept it today. Nearly all astronomers believe that comets come from either the hypothetical Oort cloud or from the Kuiper belt. It is almost inconceivable that an astronomer would not know this. Since Ross places so much store in the consensus view of astronomers, it would behove him to better understand that view before attacking recent creationists.

-MACHOs

The Creator and the Cosmos contains several obvious errors or misstatements, despite having undergone revision in 1995. For instance, Ross garbled the discussion of observational evidence (via gravitational lensing) that dark matter may consist of MACHOs (MAssive Compact Halo Objects).34 First, Ross has the first 10-m Keck telescope and the Hubble Space Telescope (HST) playing key roles in this discovery. In fact, most of the work was done with much smaller telescopes wholly dedicated to the study. The largest telescopes in the world cannot be tied up in time-consuming programs such as this one. Second, Ross stated that MACHOs were detected in the Large Magellanic Cloud (LMC), a satellite galaxy of the Milky Way. In reality, the MACHOs were believed to be in the Milky Way or between the Milky Way and the LMC. What confused Ross was the fact that the objects that were lensed were stars in the LMC. If Ross had carefully read just the titles of the articles that he referenced on this topic, he should have been able to figure this out.

-Fine-tuning of the Universe—Ross’s Overstatements
In discussing how finely balanced the expansion of the universe must be to permit the existence of life, Ross states that the expansion rate ‘... cannot differ by more than one part in 1055 from the actual rate.’ 35 Ross gives no reference for this figure, so one is left to guess where he got this nonsense. In the 1990s, there has been a major debate on the value of the Hubble constant, H0, which measures the expansion rate of the universe. For a while it appeared that we might not know H0 within a factor of two, though the situation appears to have improved a bit. Still, it would seem that if it were thought that the expansion rate could not vary by over one part in 1055 for life to exist, we would have to know the expansion rate with that precision. The value of H0 continues to be revised by amounts far larger than one in 1055.

The stakes in the controversy over the value of H0 have been high, because an increased Hubble constant leads to a younger universe. For a while it appeared that globular star clusters were older than the universe. In The Creator and the Cosmos, Ross ignores the astronomers who have presented evidence of higher values of H0. Teams led by Wendy Freedman and Michael Pierce have given strong cases for this. Yet in discussing new measurements of H0, Ross does not mention these, but opts instead to rely solely upon his good friend Allan Sandage,36 who is one of the leading figures arguing for a lower value of H0. Such gross oversimplification and overstatement of his case is all too common with Ross. Another example is his handling of COBE (COsmic Background Explorer) data.37 Ross states that the observed inhomogeneities in the cosmic background radiation (CBR) found ‘... were just what astrophysicists thought they would find.’ The truth is that the COBE was designed to detect the temperature fluctuations that astrophysicists expected, but that the original COBE data showed a perfectly smooth distribution. It was not until some very high-powered statistical techniques were applied to the data that much lower than originally expected fluctuations were found. At that point, big bang models were recalculated to ‘predict’ the data. How this shows perfect harmony with theory and observation as Ross claims is a mystery.

-Earth-Moon Lunacy
In discussing the moon, Ross states that the moon at 4.25 Ga is younger than the earth at 4.59 Ga,38 hence they could not have formed at the same time. But this confuses several things. The oldest accepted radiometric ages for lunar rocks are about 4.25 Ga, but the oldest accepted terrestrial rocks have ages of about 3.95 Ga. How is this explained? Both bodies are thought to have undergone geological activity, so that no primordial rocks exist on either one. The earth is obviously more geologically active, so its oldest rocks are expected to be younger than the moon’s oldest rocks. Therefore the correct raw numbers as accepted by most scientists indicate just the opposite of what Ross concludes. If there are no primordial rocks on the earth, whence comes the 4.59 Ga age for the earth? That age comes from radiometric dates of a certain class of meteorites, from which the age of the solar system, and most of the bodies in it, has been inferred. So Ross has mixed two very different figures here. The facts have been so garbled that it questions his competence.

On the next page, Ross briefly discusses the currently accepted scenario for the origin of the moon.39 This theory suggests that the earth formed as a single body, but that early in its history the earth suffered a collision with another body that was a significant fraction of its own size, possibly twice the mass of Mars.40 The earth absorbed most of the colliding body, while the remaining debris was blasted into orbit to eventually coalesce into the moon. Ross states that this was a ‘head-on’ collision. In physics, a head-on collision is one in which the paths of the centers of mass of the bodies intersect. Alternatively, the angle of incidence for the incoming body is perpendicular to the surface of the impacted body. Ross is wrong: this scenario requires that the impacting body approach the earth at a glancing angle. Only for a glancing collision is enough material ejected with the proper trajectory to form the moon (although there are still unsolved problems with excess angular momentum40). One must ask whether Ross merely misunderstood the origin scenario or if he does not know what a head-on collision is. The former possibility suggests sloppiness; the latter suggests incompetence.

-Ross’s Oral Oversights
Ross’s books are generally well polished and have obviously been edited. However, his pronouncements in public addresses and on-air presentations are much less guarded. Davidheiser41 and Sparks42 have documented a number of scientific blunders made by Ross in these other venues. Those blunders will not be overly elaborated here, but a few must be mentioned. Sparks demonstrated numerous and monstrous errors of math and values of exponentials.

On a number of occasions Ross has stated that DNA is either made of proteins or is itself a protein. This error appeared in the first edition of The Fingerprint of God, but was corrected in the second edition.

Ross has completely botched the story of the peppered moths of England. He has called them butterflies, and said that they were green. The latter gaffe is apparently because he misunderstands the nature of the moths’ alleged evolutionary advantage, thinking that the moths were supposed to be found on foliage rather than trunks of trees. It is common for evolutionists to blow the story of the peppered moths,43 but Ross has exceeded them all.

Ross has said that average human eyesight is three times better than it was 2,000 years ago. This is another example of an absurd and unfounded claim made entirely without documentation.

Ross also claimed that the Pacific Ocean basin is the scar left from when the moon was formed by separation from the earth. That is a very old idea that was discarded decades ago. Today, the Pacific Ocean basin is explained entirely by plate tectonics. These blunders and outdated ideas are inexcusable for a scientist. That is ironic, because Ross often dismisses his creationist critics for supposedly not having the credentials to adequately understand science

Both Davidheiser and Sparks show the sloppy manner in which Ross approaches science and facts in general. One illustration dealing with astronomy will demonstrate this. A few years ago, Hugh Ross and Duane Gish were guests on James Dobson’s popular radio program, Focus on the Family. During the discussion, the question of star formation came up. Gish questioned the possibility and observations of star formation today. In his response Ross, blithely stated that ‘ ... we see star formation in real time. You can take your pair of binoculars out tonight and watch it. It’s actually happening.’44 That is a blatantly false statement that no other astronomer would endorse. Perhaps what Ross meant to say was that with a pair of binoculars anyone could see regions in space where stars are thought to be forming now. Most astronomers today would consider that statement to be true. However, that is not what Ross said. He was either being very sloppy or incompetent. In either case his statement certainly misled many people.

-Ross’s Book Blunders
While Ross’s biggest blunders occur in public addresses, even his books contain some careless errors. For instance, his most recent book places the Scopes trial in 1927,45 not correctly in 1925. Subtler, but equally troubling examples, of bungling abound. For instance, Ross recently claimed that the current 71 to 29 percent ratio of water-to-land surface on the earth ‘... has been theoretically and observationally demonstrated to provide the maximum possible diversity and complexity of life.’46 No reference was given for this statement, so it is impossible to determine where Ross discovered this ‘fact’ or if indeed he incorrectly handled it as well. Given the many variables involved in determining such a thing, it is difficult to conceive that one could reach such a conclusion theoretically. But even more troubling is the assertion that this has been ‘observationally demonstrated’. Short of observing a large number of earth-like worlds with various water-to-land ratios and counting the flora and fauna on each, just how could such a thing be demonstrated observationally? In the same book Ross writes that ‘ ... theory and observations both confirm that all planets start with opaque atmospheres.’47 Again, no references were given, but short of directly observing the birth and development of a large number of planets, how could this be observationally tested? To some these may seem like petty objections, but these sorts of misstatements are common in Ross’s works.

-Ross’s Personal Testimony
Ross’s testimony is contained in nearly all of his books. The elements are essentially this. Ross was raised in a moral, but not Christian, or even religious, family. As a teenager, he became very interested in science. At the age of 15, he concluded that the big bang must be true, and that the existence of the world demanded that there be a Creator, so he began a study of religions. He decided that the one true religion should be self-consistent and that it should agree with the natural world. He began reading the Bible, starting with Genesis, and he saw that it alone met the requirements of being the one true religion. He found that the Bible contained no errors or contradictions, which led him to salvation through the blood of Jesus.

This story reflects the statements of Romans 1 regarding what is called natural revelation, and we can rejoice in his salvation. But Ross claims that as a teenager he was struck with how well the Genesis account agreed with what he knew that science had revealed about the origin of the world. That is difficult to believe. Nearly everyone who reads the Genesis creation account for the first time comes away with the strong impression that the Bible and ‘science’ have serious disagreements about origins. That is why there are so many different ways in which harmonization is attempted.

Much of Ross’s harmonization is very similar to that of the late Peter Stoner, who had a popular level book that enjoyed broad readership about the time that Ross was a teenager.48 Could it be that Stoner influenced Ross? If so, why does Ross fail to acknowledge this? Interestingly, Hugh Ross wrote the foreword to the progressive creationist book by Stoner’s grandson, which echoes Ross’s scientific sloppiness, egregious eisegesis, and general Scriptura sub scientia approach.49 Ross clearly implies that he came to his understanding of Genesis solely by his own reading of the passage. If there were any other influences that guided him, then his repeated omissions go far beyond merely misleading.

-ConclusionJust a few of the incorrect and untrue statements of Hugh Ross have been explored. The concentration here has been on scientific issues. Others, such as Van Bebber and Taylor,10 and Kelly,18 have documented many of Ross’s outrageous biblical assertions, which demonstrate that Ross’s poor scholarship extends to biblical studies as well.

Dishonesty or incompetence? It is difficult to say. While I cannot decide which explanation best characterizes Ross, I am very concerned with his inability to correctly handle factual information. On many occasions Ross has greatly bungled information. On other occasions he has appeared to have a total disregard for the truth. Some have found that when Ross is informed of his gaffes, he blithely goes on as if he never heard the criticism. There seems to be no accountability. Ross frequently overstates his arguments. There are very serious problems with his biblical studies and questions about his scientific competence. I hope that the issues raised here will cause those who entertain Ross’s teachings to re-examine his pronouncements. Contrary to what many believe, Ross’s case is riddled with errors. Those who agree with his approach to Genesis should be embarrassed with the extent of his sloppy work.
References/ <http://www.icr.org/article/dubious-apologetics-hugh-ross/>

-------
In my personal opinion I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND your reading any books, watching DVD's or listening to any of Hugh Ross's information. He is totally incompetent of his teachings and has no head knowledge of the truth of the Bible.
Lynn, you are totally mixing "time" when you speak of '....in the beginning God created...., and then ..."In the beginning was Jesus."
Jesus is part of the Godhead, In the beginning was God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, they are inseparable. This is the Trinity, or Tri-Une God. Thank you.~


Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]
Re: The John Ankerberg Show & Dr Danny Faulkner, Dr Huge Ross, [Let's discuss Hugh Ross] [Re: Abigail] #70668
04/15/13 09:48 PM
04/15/13 09:48 PM
L
Lynnmn  Offline OP
Master Elite Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,707 ****
Hi Abigail, sidehug
Your Welcome!
Quote
Thank you, Lynn for the time spent on comparing the differences of opinions with several men, mentioned in your posts
.

I think it is great that these men and women can sit down together and debate for all of us to see. Even if they disagree in some respects. But I would rather see them all debating on the evidence together then what one may say about them. Instead of second hand I would rather see it first hand then decide where the evidence may lead too. It was a really pleasant surprise to see Ken Ham on "It Is Written" With John Bradshaw this Sunday. I'd like to get that DVD from "It Is Written" when it comes out if they don't already have it. It's not on this of site yet. Hopefully soon. He was really good.

http://www.itiswritten.com/


Re: The John Ankerberg Show & Dr Danny Faulkner, Dr Huge Ross, [Let's discuss Hugh Ross] [Re: Abigail] #71174
05/31/13 03:05 AM
05/31/13 03:05 AM
CTD  Offline

Master Elite Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,315 ****
That was good work, Abigail.

I've never had any problem with Hugh Ross since I read one of his books. I don't recall the title, but to read him directly is to see all you need to see. I was not a little disgusted that the Christian bookstore had categorized his book under "Creation Science" for it was anything but.

It is important in America to have open, peaceful discussions of issues with all manner of hereticks, even with all false religions, so long as their members have a fear of God. That truth shall prevail in such contests is the faith America embraced, the faith which set us apart.

We should avoid giving the impression, however, that all beliefs are equal. This cannot be true. We should never treat falsehood as equal with truth under any circumstances. If people pay attention, I think most will agree there's far too much of that goes on.

It is frustrating that so many refuse to take a look at the so-called "discoveries of science" claiming absurd things. It is superficial folly to believe something based upon the lab coat worn by the speaker. (Were one to play the odds, ironically, that would better serve as grounds for rejecting it!)


Dark Matter + Dark Energy = Dark Truth

"We find that such evidence demonstrates that the ID argument is dependent upon setting a scientifically unreasonable burden of proof for the theory of evolution." - Judge Jones Kitzmiller case
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Falsify.cfm

"To Compel A Man To Furnish Funds For The Propagation Of Ideas He Disbelieves And Abhors Is Sinful And Tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?" - Thomas Jefferson
Re: The John Ankerberg Show & Dr Danny Faulkner, Dr Huge Ross, [Let's discuss Hugh Ross] [Re: Lynnmn] #71175
05/31/13 03:31 AM
05/31/13 03:31 AM
CTD  Offline

Master Elite Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,315 ****
Hi Lynn!

It's good to see you maintaining so much interest in the relevant subjects. I continue to be concerned with your discernment, but there is hope unless you close yourself off from truth.

I don't care much for "you can still be saved and believe X" types of thinking. So what? Who would want to believe something false? We see an awful lot of that these days, and I find it unprofitable. Heresy is heresy. I believe hereticks can be good citizens; I believe some are indeed going to be in heaven. I don't believe we are to follow them.

You might turn your attention to the flood, and the impact rejecting it is going to have on a Christian's usefulness. This is one dividing line supported by scripture, and one which, when crossed, is a certain indicator of heresy. ...If not worse.

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Please take care, my friend.


Dark Matter + Dark Energy = Dark Truth

"We find that such evidence demonstrates that the ID argument is dependent upon setting a scientifically unreasonable burden of proof for the theory of evolution." - Judge Jones Kitzmiller case
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Falsify.cfm

"To Compel A Man To Furnish Funds For The Propagation Of Ideas He Disbelieves And Abhors Is Sinful And Tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?" - Thomas Jefferson
Re: The John Ankerberg Show & Dr Danny Faulkner, Dr Huge Ross, [Let's discuss Hugh Ross] [Re: CTD] #71315
06/13/13 04:51 AM
06/13/13 04:51 AM
L
Lynnmn  Offline OP
Master Elite Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,707 ****
Hi CTD, grin
I don't believe Hugh Ross is a hereticks. I have been reading The John Ankerberg Show facts that really matter book and Ross is a Christian and reads the Bible and believes God created the Heavens and The Earth and Humans too. But I don't just follow Ross I watch what they all have to say and then pick up my Strongs Exhaustive Concordence of the Bible and the Interlinear Bible of Hebrew Greek and English and look up the translations word meanings for myself. I'm not a King James only person though I do have the King James and quote from it as it's public doman to do so. But I prefer this translation better as well as the One New Man Bible.
But the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now some people would describe that as earth ages. In translation like described on this site are those verse you posted.
Three World Ages Bible Study

http://www.biblestudygames.com/biblestudies/threeworldages.htm

Plus and these verses are taken fromn the King James...

http://www.bibleresearcher.org/Bible/comments/three-world-ages/three-world-ages.html

But the heavens and the earth, which are now,
which is now this age. The earth age we live in now is almost seven thousand years old.

Genesis 1-1 - 3 Earth Ages - Pastor Arnold Murray - In the Beginning 3 of 3 - YHVH .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMfg4esLL2A

Which can make it look young and old. The word meaning from the orginal words translated can show this meaning as well. Since it can when you research the language, Hugh Ross could be right in some aspects as well. John Ankerberg thinks so because of the language. I am highly interested in these subjects it is interesting and just recently ordered the Three World Ages DVD so I can look up all the scriptures but remember listening to the Cassette Tape on it long time ago. And know already what certain words their orginal meaning are now. Ordered the three different views DVD's on Hell another subject of course but one I would like to see debated in the same fashion as the DVD format posted above was. It would be an interesting debate of why they each transalated it or view it in that fashion. I believe it's the translation and meaning that can make the difference in what they believe to be true as well. But for me I like to look it up myself to see what the orginal translation is. And what it could mean. Plus, I believe in the flood and Pastor Doug said that things soaked in salt could actually look older. And that seems to be true as well. So many factors to consider but I think it's the translation that matters. There's always hope of course.
Always My Friend. smile

Ken Ham & Bill Nye Debate Brand New Feb 4, 2014 [Re: Lynnmn] #73619
02/06/14 01:08 AM
02/06/14 01:08 AM
L
Lynnmn  Offline OP
Master Elite Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,707 ****
Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham - HD Feb 4 2014
Watch It Here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6kgvhG3AkI

Another Young Earth Creationist
Evolutionists Get Owned By Creationists on BBC TV Show

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sP63mfn0gg


Moderated by  Bex, CTD 

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1