Hi Bex

Even chance hasn't got a chance without having meaning/substance existing in the first place.

Substance must exist for chance to have a chance true enough but ‘meaning’!! No! You are confabulating unlike terms here. No meaning is necessary for evolution to occur. Information, raw information, the sort created by matter coalescing out of disorder as a universe expands and cools is all that’s required to enable evolution.

RAZD talks about dice, but the dice he talks about already exists, including the numbers on it.

Try rolling a dice without a number code that doesn't mean anything. The only reason he talks about rolling a 7, is because the numbers that add up to it mean something.

What meaning do the numbers on the dice have without humans? The figures are still there but what do they mean? Just variations in the coloured surface of an oddly shaped bit of matter without us. Meaning is assigned by intelligent beings but the universe and life goes on without intelligent beings, ToE works without intelligent input or meaning though it appears fully capable of creating intelligent beings who can then assign meanings to things around them.

Everything that evolution talks about, even the stuff meddled with in labs by scientists already exists with information. I wonder what scientists could do with chance in a laboratory without it?

Without it there would be no scientist, matter and information must already exist. Meaning is another question, meaning is not required for evolution to occur. Meaning only becomes important once intelligent beings have arisen capable of assigning meaning to things or creating meaning within their own minds which is, in the end, the only place that meaning really ever exists.

All the best Bex.

In Reason

Russell

For every lone genius working away in solitude that shifted the paradigm, shattered the pedestal, or smashed the status quo, ten thousand quacks didn't understand the paradigm, couldn't find the pedestal, or whiffed when swinging at the status quo.